I am aware of the fact that we are all guests on this forum and it is a privilege to participate. The forum was set up with different subjects for discussion and I have gone on record in the past as objecting to certain threads because they are not topical. While I still believe the appropriate place for a thread that has turned political in nature is the open forum, apparently here this thread remains as part of the US Coin Forum... so There is no alternative other than to respond here.
mrearlygold:
I didn't miss the whole point... And in light of your comments, it is clear that you have chosen to simply characterize FDR's combat with the Depression as "circumventing the Constitution" and introducing "His brand of Socialism" instead of attempting to highlight the severity of the economic and political situation when he was elected in 1932.
While you referred to Franklin Roosevelt a "socialist" and you further referred to him and others associated with him as "thiefs". While you are entitled to your right to express yourself, as I am, and I must take exception to your outrageous accusations that have no foundation whatsoever. The terms "thief" and "socialist" do not describe the character of Roosevelt nor those chosen by him for his Cabinet. Perhaps the talents of Agriculture Secretary Henry Wallace (founder of Pioneer Hybrid) and Jesse Jones (prominent Texas Banker) do not represent Capitalism to your satisfaction.
Henry Wallace, a registered Republican until 1936, was without a doubt, a brilliant man behind the success of hybrid corn and genetic research to make various crops drought resisant. Further, he pioneered crop rotation and other innovations to improve agricultural production. Wallace was responsible for aggressively stabilizing agricultural commodities that had plunged starting at the end of WW I and continuing through the 1920's and did not recover until after the development of the AAA. The Harding, Coolidge and Hoover Administrations did little to successfully address agricultural issues that were basically neglected for over 10 years.
Jesse Jones was a prominent Texas Banker that basically put Houston on the map. He was appointed by Hoover to the RFC and Roosevelt later elevated him to run the entire program. Later, in 1940, he became Secretary of Commerce. He held that post until he was replced by Henry Wallace in 1945. Jones saved hundreds of thousands of businesses from bankruptcy through his leadership in the RFC. As Secretary of Commerce, he was responsible for the wartime economy along with Wallace who was then Vice President and handling the OPA.
I chose Wallace and Jones as examples to demonstrate the leadership skills of FDR because both men came from different backgrounds and disliked each other immensely. Roosevelt surrounded himself with excellent leaders with ideas to deal with the Depression. Both men were largely responsible for saving thousands of American farms and business of all sizes from bankruptcy.
The great legacy of the New Deal is the infrastructure that you bitterly complain about. Do you have any idea what life was like in the many areas of the rural South prior to the TVA? Ask former President Jimmy Carter and Newt Gingrich. Growing up in Plains, Carter had no electric power. Gingrich has even conceded that FDR was the greatest American President of the 20th Century. Electric power from the TVA was sold in all southern states. I don't understand your comment that Georgia, Virginia and North Carolina were not TVA states... you may be right in that those states may not have a damn associated with it, however, those states clearly benefitted from the electric power that was generated.
The investment in the TVA was made at the bottom of the worst Depression in American History at a deflated cost for raw materials and labor. What has been the economic benefit? Perhaps the modernization of the South. The numbers are staggering in terms of the econmic growth generated from this project. You should be happy that it has provided economic freedom for many. The same can be said of the great damns of the Pacific Northwest. BTW, Senator George Norris was probably one of the biggest proponents of the TVA and other electric power projects and he wasn't a socialist either...
There were several schools, post offices, bridges and roads that were WPA projects. Again, this was a great time to invest in America's future and FDR did just that. Now, imagine the United States preparing for WWII without the infrastructure of the New Deal? Its not a pretty thought is it? But Freedom is worth defending isn't it?
Your analysis that the economy was recovering and unemployment would have been down to 5% in October of 1934... Well, how many other industrialized countries recovered from the Global Depression by then? I don't think there was one and Lets excluded the Fascist and communist countries... Bottom line is that there was no guarantee that there would have been a recovery of the magnitude that you claim given the condition of US Banks. And I know how much you like FDIC and the work of Carter Glass, but the Banking reforms created international confidence in US Banks as a result.
Roosevelt exemplifies the American spirit in his courageous battle with polio. On a personal level, to suggest Roosevelt does not illustrate America, in light of his battle with polio and the accomplishment of being elected to four terms as President is short sided. Whether you agree or disagree with FDR politically really is not even a test. I need to end this primarily because I really don't see threads such as this as educational or even helpful because the type of detail that is essential for a reasonable evaluation of Roosevelt, the New Deal and his unprecedented four terms as President cannot be confined to the limited space available.
One final comment... don't pass judgment on other forum members that may have a different perspective because the ability to even have different perspectives is one of the ideals that makes this country great.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Coinkat, thank you for balancing the perspective. To fully understand the problem with pure capitalism, another voice should be heard. Most of you know his work.
Albert Einstein from the Monthly Review (1949)
"Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society. This is true since the members of legislative bodies are selected by political parties, largely financed or otherwise influenced by private capitalists who, for all practical purposes, separate the electorate from the legislature. The consequence is that the representatives of the people do not in fact sufficiently protect the interests of the underprivileged sections of the population. Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). "
FDR? Evil incarnate or champion of the common man? I suppose it really depends on your social conscience. I see him as a man who understood the political reality of a nation in the great depression, who did everything within his power to effect change. Although the coin design isn't much to look at, I respect Roosevelt's courage and perseverance. Socialist? Only to those blind to the changing landscape of our society as it has matured over the last few hundred years while we have learned to live together in our continually more populous society. I'd wish for those who really wish to return to the simpler government we had in 1800 that they be allowed to, as a sharecropper. I'll keep the dime.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Very well TP. Perhaps you'll have a better grasp of the social underpinnings of a democratic society if it is expressed by a name you'll recognize from early American history. Thomas Paine.
Paine settled in Philadelphia where he became a journalist. Paine had several articles published in the Pennsylvania Magazine including one advocating the abolition of slavery. In 1776 he published Common Sense, a pamphlet that attacked the British Monarchy and argued for American independence. During the war with England Tom Paine wrote articles and pamphlets on the superiority of republican democracy over monarchical government and served with Washington's armies. Paine also travelled to France in 1781 to raise money for the American cause.
Paine played no role in American government after independence and in 1787 he returned to Britain. Paine continued to write on political issues and in 1791 published his most influential work, The Rights of Man. In the book Paine attacked hereditary government and argued for equal political rights. Paine suggested that all men over twenty-one in Britain should be given the vote and this would result in a House of Commons willing to pass laws favourable to the majority. The book also recommended progressive taxation, family allowances, old age pensions, maternity grants and the abolition of the House of Lords.
Isn't that why you criticize Roosevelt?
Didn't you say
It's "civilized" to have government steal from people to redistribute to others and other interests according to your views. As I said right from the start in response to your post, try doing it yourself and at least be a man about it.
and
And maybe YOU should consider reading things like "Common Sense"
TP
It would appear the author of Common Sense disagrees with your position. I eagerly await your next eloquent blurb.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
How about a different perspective on the issue of which coin most poorly illustrates America and why - I vote for the Indian cent. It is a perfect example of America's euro-ethnocentricity. Give me a break! It wasn't enought to just steal the land, now we gotta make 'em white?
As for you SBA bashers - she might not be the prettiest, but she was just as, if not more, gutsy than the dead presidents. I think she's better looking than Ike any day.
I fully agree. Seeing Liberty dressed in a native American headress on our cent during the Indian wars was a pretty ugly representation of the American ideal. I do however love the design.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I think in many ways the indian cent speaks volumes about our history as a nation. I actually love the design, but have always been a little bothered by what it represented to me.
<< <i>I think in many ways the indian cent speaks volumes about our history as a nation. I actually love the design, but have always been a little bothered by what it represented to me. >>
I always hated Miss Liberty on the early coinage. How could any nation that allowed slavery have a representation of Liberty on it's coins?
Elvis is an extremely important historical figure, and is the embodiment of America.
I think he would make a great series - young Elvis (representing the idealistic young country), Elvis as father and husband (industrial revolution), drugged and disillusioned Elvis (post-Vietnam America).
Perfect!
I'll bet this isn't what you meant, Lucy, but I'm on a roll!
Paine played no role in American government after independence and in 1787 he returned to Britain. Paine continued to write on political issues and in 1791 published his most influential work, The Rights of Man. In the book Paine attacked hereditary government and argued for equal political rights. Paine suggested that all men over twenty-one in Britain should be given the vote and this would result in a House of Commons willing to pass laws favourable to the majority. The book also recommended progressive taxation, family allowances, old age pensions, maternity grants and the abolition of the House of Lords.
Isn't that why you criticize Roosevelt? I DON'T REALLY CARE WHAT PAINE ALLEGEDLY ADVOCATED AFTER HIS DEPARTURE FROM THE USA. NOT RELEVANT.
Didn't you say
It's "civilized" to have government steal from people to redistribute to others and other interests according to your views. As I said right from the start in response to your post, try doing it yourself and at least be a man about it. TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT AS YOU ARE WELL AWARE. AT LEAST TRY TO BE HONEST
and
And maybe YOU should consider reading things like "Common Sense" DONE. YOU SHOULD DO THE SAME.
TP
It would appear the author of Common Sense disagrees with your position. I eagerly await your next eloquent blurb. >>
Again, you seem to think that force is a good thing. You haven't answered that since the beginning of this thread and so you are boring me now.
At the risk of boring you and the other forum members, you mentioned "Common Sense" and indicated it was a must read. Mr.Paine's philosophy does not fit your doctrine. I'll leave it to you to properly define Socialism.
Freedom is the ability to do anything one chooses as long as it does not infringe on the rights of another. Responsibility is another important concept. We, collectively have decided it our responsibility to aid and assist those that through no fault of their own cannot do for themselves. Should YOU choose not to, your actions infringe on the rights of those that have to pay an extra share. If you believe (as I do) that OUR money is spent in excess and spent wastefully, involve yourself in the political process and change minds.
Having had my say, I'll let this thread continue without me, but I would like to thank you for a stimulating discussion.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I vote for the Indian cent. It is a perfect example of America's euro-ethnocentricity.
I agree. I don't really mind the indian cent as much because I like the design overall, but the gold pieces are rather irritating. Some white guy's daughter wearing an indian headdress. Please.
So far you haven't offered any suggestions as to the way things should be - only criticized anyone and everyone. Please enlighten us as to the "model of freedom".
It also sounds like you think all taxes are evil, but I'm assuming you endorse public roads, sidewalks, parks, hospitals, police etc. How would you structure a tax system to pay for such things?
So far you haven't offered any suggestions as to the way things should be - only criticized anyone and everyone. Please enlighten us as to the "model of freedom".
It also sounds like you think all taxes are evil, but I'm assuming you endorse public roads, sidewalks, parks, hospitals, police etc. How would you structure a tax system to pay for such things? >>
Read the Constitution.
You consider yourself a libertarian? That's funny.
The Constitution is a great document for ONE reason - it is a living document that acknowledges an evolving nation. The original was written by a bunch of aristocratic, slaveowning white men - but the beauty of their vision is that common people like you and I can use our own minds to create a better nation.
Quit referring to the Constitution. Instead think for yourself in the spirit the document intended.
I'm pretty sure you're allowed to think for yourself. I'll have to check the Bill of Rights again.
TP's contention, and coincidentally that of Thomas Jefferson was that the clause "promote the general welfare" was to be a limited power, and that unless the power to spend our taxes for a particular purpose had been spelled out in the Constitution, any other use was illegal and unconstitutional. Jefferson believed allowing the government any power beyond those specifically granted was a grave danger and a risk to our liberties. Therefore, TP views the subsequent reinterpretation by Roosevelt as illegal. Your question is a good one, and goes right to the core of the disagreement. Were Roosevelt's programs necessary to "insure domestic Tranquillity, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare"? I believe they were. Was it within his power to do so? Apparently it was, as he did. It was an extrordinary time. Many will argue that ANY intervention by the government always exascerbates the problem, but I'd argue that sometimes it is the only mechanism by which a desperate domestic situation can be addressed. I believe his current critics ignore the political context in which he was elected. JMO.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I'm a huge Jefferson fan, but the constitution couldn't possibly outline the needs of a society 200 years prior. I'm for very limited government and they should only provide what the people can't provide for themselves.
I guess under those strict guidelines, America would be dead - it's citizens having died from the bubonic plague due to an omission in the Constitution requiring an outlay for basic sanitation and public sewers.
Sometimes you have to consider what's written and what's right.
<< <i>I'm a huge Jefferson fan, but the constitution couldn't possibly outline the needs of a society 200 years prior. I'm for very limited government and they should only provide what the people can't provide for themselves. Sometimes you have to consider what's written and what's right. >>
Again, I have to quote you " I consider myself a libertarian"
You haven't a clue.
What people can't provide for themselves? Whose interpretation of that. Yours? Obviously you're another one who has no problem who desires government to steal someone elses earnings to redistribute to someone else.
That's one definition of socialism. Therefore you are far from Libertarian. Hey, take the worlds smallest political quiz at http://www.lp.org
I've taken numerous political quizzes - they all say I'm a Libertarian.
Who's interpretation of "what people can't provide for themselves"? Roads, police, sanitation, fire departments, defense, schools. It's not an interpretation, it's a fact.
"Stealing" your money to provide basic sanitation and public roads? My god you're over the top. So you're suggesting that we regress to the Dark Ages in adherence to a 200 year old piece of paper?
Are you suggesting that Americans should pay NO taxes and simply pass the hat from neighbor to neighbor to build roads and hire police? Talk about a massive free-rider situation. You'd be driving on one of those old mud paths with two deep ruts for the wheels - except there would be too much rotting garbage making it impassable. It wouldn't matter though because someone probably would have stolen your car already. No need to get to the hospital to treat your severe case of dysentery because there isn't one.
I'm an independent sort, don't like to ask for others for help, that kind of thing. I'll take care of myself, thank you very much. But there are a few things I can't do very well, and trying to put together a collection of private citizens to do them ourselves wouldn't work out that well, either.
Interstate highway system? I'll let the government handle that one, with my tax dollars.
National defense? Again, the NRA might tell me I have the Second Amendment right to form my own private army equipped with advanced military hardware, but I'll keep my day job. Take more taxes for that.
Police and fire protection? Well, I wasn't the victim of a crime last year and my house didn't burn down. Should a demand a refund for the portion of my taxes that went for these services? I want my money's worth! Nah, keep it. Just in case.
Primary education? I suppose we can turn that over entirely to the private market, which would do what markets do: Sort out winners and losers. People who could afford it would spend lavishly on schooling for their children. Most of the rest of us would sell off our coins to send our kids to cut-rate McSkools. And a sizable minority wouldn't send their kids to school at all. Except we've already tried that. And in a global economy, the results of this type of system are all too predictable. So public education is a good use of my tax dollars.
Criminal justice? The NRA says I could use all of the advanced military hardware that the Second Amendment requires me to keep under my pillow to take vengeance on anyone who looks at me cross-eyed. I suppose if I don't kill 'em, I'd have to lock 'em up in my extra bedroom. Damn. That was supposed to be a guest room! I guess it's probably better to have a system that relies on evidence, reason and deliberation according to a set of rules that apply equally to all. So OK, take some more taxes from me for this.
Sewage disposal? You can't keep it at my place. Sure, more taxes please.
Medical research and assistance? Left to their own devices, the pharmaceutical companies come up with Rogaine and Cialis, which suggests to me that these companies are run by and for impotent bald men. But I don't want to get the flu from the wheezy guy next to me on the subway. Or TB. If the private sector won't treat less profitable medical conditions, then I guess the feds can subsidize that, too.
Capital markets? Hey, I have a job. I can't watch fund managers, market makers, corporate directors and everyone else entrusted to take care of the money I invested every minute of every day. Somebody needs to ensure the integrity of the markets against the Martha Stewarts (but not the Ken Lays) of the world. In fact, my retirement money's in there. Let's have a little more oversight. You can use my tax dollars!
Left to their own devices, the pharmaceutical companies come up with Rogaine and Cialis, which suggests to me that these companies are run by and for impotent bald men.
LoL - right on. Impotent, bald men are just the only ones who can afford drugs. There's no profit in treating diseases that truly threaten the human species.
Since this thread is a political thread I am going to add my two cents- We are in an era of incredible corporate greed. I help run a non profit organization that delivers meals to shut in senior citizens, provides transportation for seniors and other services. Our insurance costs have gone through the roof. Our liability insurance in 2001 was about $24,000 for the year, in 2004 it is now $110,000 without a single claim being paid out. In 1998 we paid $58,000 for workers comp insurance for the year, 1n 2004 our policy costs $469,000. (of course we are in California with the best legislature that money can buy) Our property insurance has gone up over 300% without a single claim being filed. in 2001 the total monthly cost of all the insurances required to do business was about $24,000 today it is about $80,000. We don't feel like we are working to pay uncle sam- we are working to feed the insurance companies.
But the insurance companies are working to feed the lawyers. You can thank lawyers and our "hyperlitigous" system for that. Everyone wants to win the "American medical malpractice sweepstakes" and everytime someone (and their lawyer) does, you pay more.
I agree, and the trial lawyers have a huge influence over any attempt to reform the "system".
I think this guy must live in San Diego County where the recent fire storms show how poorly his ideal of government works. The areas with the worst damage and loss of life were areas that have voted against any taxes to improve the fire fighting capabilities of their communities. They even voted them down just last week once again. many of these areas have to rely on volunteer fire fighter systems. Yet many a voice was raised from these very folks demanding recovery aid from the federal government and the state government. They are the only major county in California that does not have a professional county wide fire fighting organization, they do not want to pay for it but it is ok for the rest of California to help them out financially. This is the exact philosophy being promoted by these "anti big government" guys here.
Excellent example. Why pay for something yourself when you can try to get someone else to pay for it for you?
I agree, and the trial lawyers have a huge influence over any attempt to reform the "system".
This is compounded by the fact that all judges and most politicians are ex-lawyers. Do you think they're gonna pass any legislation that will cut into their buddy's pocketbook?
I'm not sure if Michigan finally caved, but they were one of the few "no fault" states. I know they were under seige by the trial lawyers with hundreds of millions of dollars in lobbies.
<< <i>Excellent example. Why pay for something yourself when you can try to get someone else to pay for it for you?
I agree, and the trial lawyers have a huge influence over any attempt to reform the "system".
This is compounded by the fact that all judges and most politicians are ex-lawyers. Do you think they're gonna pass any legislation that will cut into their buddy's pocketbook?
I'm not sure if Michigan finally caved, but they were one of the few "no fault" states. I know they were under seige by the trial lawyers with hundreds of millions of dollars in lobbies. >>
Can someone define their rendition of what America stands for/stood for? And what coin most poorly illustrates this?
Do you disagree with the points made by goldfinger concerning tax dollars used for public services?
You can't respond to this simple question. Come, on. Two letters. Just press "reply" and bang your head on the keyboard for "No" - it'll save you a keystroke.
I am with you- we need a coin that speaks to the great influence of rock and roll remember that one song from about 1960 that says " Rock and roll will stand" ? who do you think best represents Rock and Roll?
Comments
mrearlygold:
I didn't miss the whole point... And in light of your comments, it is clear that you have chosen to simply characterize FDR's combat with the Depression as "circumventing the Constitution" and introducing "His brand of Socialism" instead of attempting to highlight the severity of the economic and political situation when he was elected in 1932.
While you referred to Franklin Roosevelt a "socialist" and you further referred to him and others associated with him as "thiefs". While you are entitled to your right to express yourself, as I am, and I must take exception to your outrageous accusations that have no foundation whatsoever. The terms "thief" and "socialist" do not describe the character of Roosevelt nor those chosen by him for his Cabinet. Perhaps the talents of Agriculture Secretary Henry Wallace (founder of Pioneer Hybrid) and Jesse Jones (prominent Texas Banker) do not represent Capitalism to your satisfaction.
Henry Wallace, a registered Republican until 1936, was without a doubt, a brilliant man behind the success of hybrid corn and genetic research to make various crops drought resisant. Further, he pioneered crop rotation and other innovations to improve agricultural production. Wallace was responsible for aggressively stabilizing agricultural commodities that had plunged starting at the end of WW I and continuing through the 1920's and did not recover until after the development of the AAA. The Harding, Coolidge and Hoover Administrations did little to successfully address agricultural issues that were basically neglected for over 10 years.
Jesse Jones was a prominent Texas Banker that basically put Houston on the map. He was appointed by Hoover to the RFC and Roosevelt later elevated him to run the entire program. Later, in 1940, he became Secretary of Commerce. He held that post until he was replced by Henry Wallace in 1945. Jones saved hundreds of thousands of businesses from bankruptcy through his leadership in the RFC. As Secretary of Commerce, he was responsible for the wartime economy along with Wallace who was then Vice President and handling the OPA.
I chose Wallace and Jones as examples to demonstrate the leadership skills of FDR because both men came from different backgrounds and disliked each other immensely. Roosevelt surrounded himself with excellent leaders with ideas to deal with the Depression. Both men were largely responsible for saving thousands of American farms and business of all sizes from bankruptcy.
The great legacy of the New Deal is the infrastructure that you bitterly complain about. Do you have any idea what life was like in the many areas of the rural South prior to the TVA? Ask former President Jimmy Carter and Newt Gingrich. Growing up in Plains, Carter had no electric power. Gingrich has even conceded that FDR was the greatest American President of the 20th Century. Electric power from the TVA was sold in all southern states. I don't understand your comment that Georgia, Virginia and North Carolina were not TVA states... you may be right in that those states may not have a damn associated with it, however, those states clearly benefitted from the electric power that was generated.
The investment in the TVA was made at the bottom of the worst Depression in American History at a deflated cost for raw materials and labor. What has been the economic benefit? Perhaps the modernization of the South. The numbers are staggering in terms of the econmic growth generated from this project. You should be happy that it has provided economic freedom for many. The same can be said of the great damns of the Pacific Northwest. BTW, Senator George Norris was probably one of the biggest proponents of the TVA and other electric power projects and he wasn't a socialist either...
There were several schools, post offices, bridges and roads that were WPA projects. Again, this was a great time to invest in America's future and FDR did just that. Now, imagine the United States preparing for WWII without the infrastructure of the New Deal? Its not a pretty thought is it? But Freedom is worth defending isn't it?
Your analysis that the economy was recovering and unemployment would have been down to 5% in October of 1934... Well, how many other industrialized countries recovered from the Global Depression by then? I don't think there was one and Lets excluded the Fascist and communist countries...
Roosevelt exemplifies the American spirit in his courageous battle with polio. On a personal level, to suggest Roosevelt does not illustrate America, in light of his battle with polio and the accomplishment of being elected to four terms as President is short sided. Whether you agree or disagree with FDR politically really is not even a test. I need to end this primarily because I really don't see threads such as this as educational or even helpful because the type of detail that is essential for a reasonable evaluation of Roosevelt, the New Deal and his unprecedented four terms as President cannot be confined to the limited space available.
One final comment... don't pass judgment on other forum members that may have a different perspective because the ability to even have different perspectives is one of the ideals that makes this country great.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
It's really amazing
TP
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Albert Einstein from the Monthly Review (1949)
"Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society. This is true since the members of legislative bodies are selected by political parties, largely financed or otherwise influenced by private capitalists who, for all practical purposes, separate the electorate from the legislature. The consequence is that the representatives of the people do not in fact sufficiently protect the interests of the underprivileged sections of the population. Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). "
FDR? Evil incarnate or champion of the common man? I suppose it really depends on your social conscience. I see him as a man who understood the political reality of a nation in the great depression, who did everything within his power to effect change. Although the coin design isn't much to look at, I respect Roosevelt's courage and perseverance. Socialist? Only to those blind to the changing landscape of our society as it has matured over the last few hundred years while we have learned to live together in our continually more populous society. I'd wish for those who really wish to return to the simpler government we had in 1800 that they be allowed to, as a sharecropper. I'll keep the dime.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Or freedom for that matter.
TP
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Paine settled in Philadelphia where he became a journalist. Paine had several articles published in the Pennsylvania Magazine including one advocating the abolition of slavery. In 1776 he published Common Sense, a pamphlet that attacked the British Monarchy and argued for American independence. During the war with England Tom Paine wrote articles and pamphlets on the superiority of republican democracy over monarchical government and served with Washington's armies. Paine also travelled to France in 1781 to raise money for the American cause.
Paine played no role in American government after independence and in 1787 he returned to Britain. Paine continued to write on political issues and in 1791 published his most influential work, The Rights of Man. In the book Paine attacked hereditary government and argued for equal political rights. Paine suggested that all men over twenty-one in Britain should be given the vote and this would result in a House of Commons willing to pass laws favourable to the majority. The book also recommended progressive taxation, family allowances, old age pensions, maternity grants and the abolition of the House of Lords.
Isn't that why you criticize Roosevelt?
Didn't you say
It's "civilized" to have government steal from people to redistribute to others and other interests according to your views. As I said right from the start in response to your post, try doing it yourself and at least be a man about it.
and
And maybe YOU should consider reading things like "Common Sense"
TP
It would appear the author of Common Sense disagrees with your position. I eagerly await your next eloquent blurb.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
As for you SBA bashers - she might not be the prettiest, but she was just as, if not more, gutsy than the dead presidents. I think she's better looking than Ike any day.
So put that in your peace pipe and smoke it!
I fully agree. Seeing Liberty dressed in a native American headress on our cent during the Indian wars was a pretty ugly representation of the American ideal. I do however love the design.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>I think in many ways the indian cent speaks volumes about our history as a nation. I actually love the design, but have always been a little bothered by what it represented to me. >>
I always hated Miss Liberty on the early coinage. How could any nation that allowed slavery have a representation of Liberty on it's coins?
I say put Elvis on the Half Dollar!!!!
Cause in the 1950s, Rock'n Roll changed the world!!!!!!!!
That'll learn you cats some History!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
We ARE watching you.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
I think he would make a great series - young Elvis (representing the idealistic young country), Elvis as father and husband (industrial revolution), drugged and disillusioned Elvis (post-Vietnam America).
Perfect!
I'll bet this isn't what you meant, Lucy, but I'm on a roll!
Isn't that why you criticize Roosevelt?
I DON'T REALLY CARE WHAT PAINE ALLEGEDLY ADVOCATED AFTER HIS DEPARTURE FROM THE USA. NOT RELEVANT.
Didn't you say
It's "civilized" to have government steal from people to redistribute to others and other interests according to your views. As I said right from the start in response to your post, try doing it yourself and at least be a man about it.
TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT AS YOU ARE WELL AWARE. AT LEAST TRY TO BE HONEST
and
And maybe YOU should consider reading things like "Common Sense"
DONE. YOU SHOULD DO THE SAME.
TP
It would appear the author of Common Sense disagrees with your position. I eagerly await your next eloquent blurb.
Again, you seem to think that force is a good thing. You haven't answered that since the beginning of this thread and so you are boring me now.
TP
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>Aw common guys/girls, let me at least hear why MrEarlyGold thinks Thomas Paine and Einstein are ignorant and don't understand freedom.
Done.
Now let's hear your definition of freedom Don.
Have one?
How about socialism ( now don't go copying and pasting something, try to use your brain now .
TP
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Freedom is the ability to do anything one chooses as long as it does not infringe on the rights of another. Responsibility is another important concept. We, collectively have decided it our responsibility to aid and assist those that through no fault of their own cannot do for themselves. Should YOU choose not to, your actions infringe on the rights of those that have to pay an extra share. If you believe (as I do) that OUR money is spent in excess and spent wastefully, involve yourself in the political process and change minds.
Having had my say, I'll let this thread continue without me, but I would like to thank you for a stimulating discussion.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I agree. I don't really mind the indian cent as much because I like the design overall, but the gold pieces are rather irritating. Some white guy's daughter wearing an indian headdress. Please.
Excellent point.
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So far you haven't offered any suggestions as to the way things should be - only criticized anyone and everyone. Please enlighten us as to the "model of freedom".
It also sounds like you think all taxes are evil, but I'm assuming you endorse public roads, sidewalks, parks, hospitals, police etc. How would you structure a tax system to pay for such things?
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<< <i>mrearly -
So far you haven't offered any suggestions as to the way things should be - only criticized anyone and everyone. Please enlighten us as to the "model of freedom".
It also sounds like you think all taxes are evil, but I'm assuming you endorse public roads, sidewalks, parks, hospitals, police etc. How would you structure a tax system to pay for such things? >>
Read the Constitution.
You consider yourself a libertarian? That's funny.
TP
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
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Quit referring to the Constitution. Instead think for yourself in the spirit the document intended.
I'm pretty sure you're allowed to think for yourself. I'll have to check the Bill of Rights again.
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TP's contention, and coincidentally that of Thomas Jefferson was that the clause "promote the general welfare" was to be a limited power, and that unless the power to spend our taxes for a particular purpose had been spelled out in the Constitution, any other use was illegal and unconstitutional. Jefferson believed allowing the government any power beyond those specifically granted was a grave danger and a risk to our liberties. Therefore, TP views the subsequent reinterpretation by Roosevelt as illegal. Your question is a good one, and goes right to the core of the disagreement. Were Roosevelt's programs necessary to "insure domestic Tranquillity, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare"? I believe they were. Was it within his power to do so? Apparently it was, as he did. It was an extrordinary time. Many will argue that ANY intervention by the government always exascerbates the problem, but I'd argue that sometimes it is the only mechanism by which a desperate domestic situation can be addressed. I believe his current critics ignore the political context in which he was elected. JMO.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I guess under those strict guidelines, America would be dead - it's citizens having died from the bubonic plague due to an omission in the Constitution requiring an outlay for basic sanitation and public sewers.
Sometimes you have to consider what's written and what's right.
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<< <i>I'm a huge Jefferson fan, but the constitution couldn't possibly outline the needs of a society 200 years prior. I'm for very limited government and they should only provide what the people can't provide for themselves.
Sometimes you have to consider what's written and what's right. >>
Again, I have to quote you " I consider myself a libertarian"
You haven't a clue.
What people can't provide for themselves? Whose interpretation of that. Yours? Obviously you're another one who has no problem who desires government to steal someone elses earnings to redistribute to someone else.
That's one definition of socialism. Therefore you are far from Libertarian. Hey, take the worlds smallest political quiz at http://www.lp.org
TP
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Who's interpretation of "what people can't provide for themselves"? Roads, police, sanitation, fire departments, defense, schools. It's not an interpretation, it's a fact.
"Stealing" your money to provide basic sanitation and public roads? My god you're over the top. So you're suggesting that we regress to the Dark Ages in adherence to a 200 year old piece of paper?
Are you suggesting that Americans should pay NO taxes and simply pass the hat from neighbor to neighbor to build roads and hire police? Talk about a massive free-rider situation. You'd be driving on one of those old mud paths with two deep ruts for the wheels - except there would be too much rotting garbage making it impassable. It wouldn't matter though because someone probably would have stolen your car already. No need to get to the hospital to treat your severe case of dysentery because there isn't one.
Again, you haven't explained your plan.
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Interstate highway system? I'll let the government handle that one, with my tax dollars.
National defense? Again, the NRA might tell me I have the Second Amendment right to form my own private army equipped with advanced military hardware, but I'll keep my day job. Take more taxes for that.
Police and fire protection? Well, I wasn't the victim of a crime last year and my house didn't burn down. Should a demand a refund for the portion of my taxes that went for these services? I want my money's worth! Nah, keep it. Just in case.
Primary education? I suppose we can turn that over entirely to the private market, which would do what markets do: Sort out winners and losers. People who could afford it would spend lavishly on schooling for their children. Most of the rest of us would sell off our coins to send our kids to cut-rate McSkools. And a sizable minority wouldn't send their kids to school at all. Except we've already tried that. And in a global economy, the results of this type of system are all too predictable. So public education is a good use of my tax dollars.
Criminal justice? The NRA says I could use all of the advanced military hardware that the Second Amendment requires me to keep under my pillow to take vengeance on anyone who looks at me cross-eyed. I suppose if I don't kill 'em, I'd have to lock 'em up in my extra bedroom. Damn. That was supposed to be a guest room! I guess it's probably better to have a system that relies on evidence, reason and deliberation according to a set of rules that apply equally to all. So OK, take some more taxes from me for this.
Sewage disposal? You can't keep it at my place. Sure, more taxes please.
Medical research and assistance? Left to their own devices, the pharmaceutical companies come up with Rogaine and Cialis, which suggests to me that these companies are run by and for impotent bald men. But I don't want to get the flu from the wheezy guy next to me on the subway. Or TB. If the private sector won't treat less profitable medical conditions, then I guess the feds can subsidize that, too.
Capital markets? Hey, I have a job. I can't watch fund managers, market makers, corporate directors and everyone else entrusted to take care of the money I invested every minute of every day. Somebody needs to ensure the integrity of the markets against the Martha Stewarts (but not the Ken Lays) of the world. In fact, my retirement money's in there. Let's have a little more oversight. You can use my tax dollars!
I could go on, but I'm no longer amusing myself.
-Jay
e-mail me here
WINNER:
POTD 8-30-05 (awarded by dthigpen)
POTD 9-8-05 (awarded by gsaguy)
GSAGUY Slam 12-10-04
LoL - right on. Impotent, bald men are just the only ones who can afford drugs. There's no profit in treating diseases that truly threaten the human species.
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Since this thread is a political thread I am going to add my two cents- We are in an era of incredible corporate greed. I help run a non profit organization that delivers meals to shut in senior citizens, provides transportation for seniors and other services. Our insurance costs have gone through the roof. Our liability insurance in 2001 was about $24,000 for the year, in 2004 it is now $110,000 without a single claim being paid out. In 1998 we paid $58,000 for workers comp insurance for the year, 1n 2004 our policy costs $469,000. (of course we are in California with the best legislature that money can buy) Our property insurance has gone up over 300% without a single claim being filed. in 2001 the total monthly cost of all the insurances required to do business was about $24,000 today it is about $80,000. We don't feel like we are working to pay uncle sam- we are working to feed the insurance companies.
Macqui
But the insurance companies are working to feed the lawyers. You can thank lawyers and our "hyperlitigous" system for that. Everyone wants to win the "American medical malpractice sweepstakes" and everytime someone (and their lawyer) does, you pay more.
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Baccaruda-
I agree, and the trial lawyers have a huge influence over any attempt to reform the "system".
I think this guy must live in San Diego County where the recent fire storms show how poorly his ideal of government works. The areas with the worst damage and loss of life were areas that have voted against any taxes to improve the fire fighting capabilities of their communities. They even voted them down just last week once again. many of these areas have to rely on volunteer fire fighter systems. Yet many a voice was raised from these very folks demanding recovery aid from the federal government and the state government. They are the only major county in California that does not have a professional county wide fire fighting organization, they do not want to pay for it but it is ok for the rest of California to help them out financially. This is the exact philosophy being promoted by these "anti big government" guys here.
Macqui
I agree, and the trial lawyers have a huge influence over any attempt to reform the "system".
This is compounded by the fact that all judges and most politicians are ex-lawyers. Do you think they're gonna pass any legislation that will cut into their buddy's pocketbook?
I'm not sure if Michigan finally caved, but they were one of the few "no fault" states. I know they were under seige by the trial lawyers with hundreds of millions of dollars in lobbies.
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<< <i>Excellent example. Why pay for something yourself when you can try to get someone else to pay for it for you?
I agree, and the trial lawyers have a huge influence over any attempt to reform the "system".
This is compounded by the fact that all judges and most politicians are ex-lawyers. Do you think they're gonna pass any legislation that will cut into their buddy's pocketbook?
I'm not sure if Michigan finally caved, but they were one of the few "no fault" states. I know they were under seige by the trial lawyers with hundreds of millions of dollars in lobbies. >>
Can someone define their rendition of what America stands for/stood for? And what coin most poorly illustrates this?
Just wondering ( really wondering)
TP
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
We're still waiting for your answer to this question.
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Do you disagree with the points made by goldfinger concerning tax dollars used for public services?
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TP
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
What America stands for? I'm not going to write a 2,000 word post at this point. Read my previous posts and I think you'll get a good idea.
You still haven't answered any of the questions. Why not answer?
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<< <i>I've answered the thread question numerous times - Indian gold, Indian cent.
What America stands for? I'm not going to write a 2,000 word post at this point. Read my previous posts and I think you'll get a good idea.
You still haven't answered any of the questions. Why not answer? >>
I started the thread remember?
TP
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>I started the thread remember? >>
so?
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>
<< <i>I started the thread remember? >>
so? >>
So that's a statement while the thread starter is obviously a question.
Care to share your views?
TP
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
You can't respond to this simple question. Come, on. Two letters. Just press "reply" and bang your head on the keyboard for "No" - it'll save you a keystroke.
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Lucy-
I am with you- we need a coin that speaks to the great influence of rock and roll remember that one song from about 1960 that says " Rock and roll will stand" ? who do you think best represents Rock and Roll?
Macqui
Baccaruda-
I am still waiting for his thoughts on the San Diego situation.
Macqui
U.S. Nickels Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
U.S. Dimes Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
<< <i>Baccaruda-
I am still waiting for his thoughts on the San Diego situation.
Macqui >>
Which US coin most poorly illustrates America and why?
Can you do that?
TP
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
and Lucy -
A few months ago some lady came into the coin store and bought a Elvis cameo proof silver round - she loved it.
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<< <i>who do you think best represents Rock and Roll? >>
Oh boy, thats a tough call......
Elvis is up there, and even Sam Phillips, owner of Sun records......
Chuck Berry could really rock it..........
Alan Freed is a good represenitive of Rock'n Roll....
tough call.......
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>a Elvis cameo proof silver round >>
this Hepcat had dreammmmmy hair, the Accented Hair of all accented hairs!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter