Top 25 *Hard to Find* NFL HOF RC's

JasP24

I went over the POPs on the NFL HOF RC set, and I have come up with the 25 hardest to find cards in NM 7 or better condition. The baseball guys will probably be VERY surprised by the VERY low pops of some popular football players. Since baseball was THE sport up until the 70's and 80's, many of the old football cards were overlooked and not taken care of. Meaning the number of NM 7 or better UNGRADED are so much harder to find than their basbeall counterparts.This is another reason I believe the Football RCs , even at their current all-time highs are still WAY undervalued.

Anyway, here's the list, with POPs. (POPs are total amount of cards graded in PSA 7, 8, 9 and 10 combined.)

1. 1966 Philadelphia Bob Brown----------2
2. 1948 Leaf Sid Luckman------------------4
3. 1948 Leaf Chuck Bednarik--------------5
4. 1948 Leaf Leo Nomellini-----------------6
5. 1967 Philadelphia Jackie Smith--------7
6. 1948 Leaf Charlie Trippi-----------------9
7. 1948 Leaf George Connor--------------9
8. 1974 Topps Joe DeLamielleure--------9
9. 1967 Philadelphia Dave Wilcox--------10
10. 1948 Leaf Bobby Layne---------------11
11. 1948 Leaf Bob Waterfield------------12
12. 1948 Leaf Bill Dudley------------------12
13. 1948 Bowman Pete Pihos------------13
14. 1948 Leaf Doak Walker---------------15
15. 1962 Fleer Billy Shaw------------------16
16. 1970 Topps Elvin Bethea--------------16
17. 1955 Bowman Bob St. Clair-----------17
18. 1948 Bowman Alex Wojciechowicz--18
19. 1965 Topps Willie Brown--------------18
20. 1977 Topps Dave Casper-------------18
21. 1948 Leaf Steve Van Buren----------19
22. 1948 Bowman Bulldog Turner--------19
23. 1967 Philadelphia Leroy Kelly--------19
24. 1935 National Chicle Bronco Nagurski--20
25. 1952 Bowman Large Joe Stydahar--20

If anyone has any of these in PSA 7 or better, OR ungraded in NM or better, contact me IMMEDIATELY so I can get rid of those for you.

Jason

GoSoxBoSox

I guess with the recent HOF induction nobody's had time to get Bob Brown graded, huh? It should be a very easy card to find raw in high grade and at little cost. I'll be searching the Fort Friday night for it.

In fact, everything above 1952 on your list is usually plentiful at the Fort show. They're just not highly sought after cards.

JasP24

Most of the cards after 1952 would need to be in NM-MT or better to really be worth a look. But a card like the 62 Billy Shaw has gone for over $150 on ebay for a PSA 8. One of the newer cards, 1977 Topps Dave Casper in PSA 8 just sold for $76 on ebay.

If you can find these in NM-MT condition, get them graded! Or send them to me to get graded! Anyone know how far Fort Washington is from the DC area? If my schedule allows, I'm seriously thinking about making a day of it. Also, which would be the best day to go. Saturday or Sunday?

Jason

GoSoxBoSox

The FT. Washington show is 1/2 Northwest of Philly. So it's about 3 hours from DC. The earlier in the show you go...the better. Most guys from this forum are there Friday night. It'll be open from 5 PM until 9 PM.

These cards are there but you may have to dig a bit. Especially for cards as new as 1977 Topps.

JasP24

What does it look like overall as far as Vintage Football PSA graded?Is it mostly a baseball driven show?

Jason

GoSoxBoSox

It's definitely a bigger baseball show than anything else. But you can definitely find high-grade cards from all sports. I won't say the pricing will blow you away, but you can find a lot of nice football cards. The show is worth the trip every so often. In my opinion it's every bit a s good as Nationals. The big players are here minus all the garbage you see at Nationals. Just my opinion.

FYI: The show is here every March, May-June, September, and December.

JasP24

Thanks for the info. I think I'm going to try and make the trip since i've never been. Saturday is the earliest, so hopefully there will still be some football cards left for me that i need.

Jason

pandrews

<< <i>What does it look like overall as far as Vintage Football PSA graded?Is it mostly a baseball driven show?

Jason >>



Jasp,
not to change the subject, I noticed the All-American logo.. when were you in?
Ive been trying to upload a different 82nd logo but I always miss the 15th of the month..

ps - My eBay ID is Bragg82nd

AlanAllen

There is some truth tho what BoSox is saying, but the majority of these are just tough cards. the '48 and prior cards notwithstanding, I don't think it's a coincidence that all of the '62 Fleer and '67 Philly cards on the list are amongst the 25 toughest. I'd say the Bob Brown, DeLamielleure, Bethea, and Casper cards are on the list due to a lack of submissions, but the rest are legitimately tough in high grade.

Joe

GoSoxBoSox

Kelly maybe tough. I've seen a lot of nice one's but the cut typically reminds me of OPC cards from the early '80's. I don't think Smith and Wilcox are that tough at all. I think they also fall into low submission bucket. The '62 Shaw seems prone to centering issues and isn't from the easiest set to find.

I can't really speak to the '55 St. Clair.

packCollector

Jasp, you're a couple days late on your #1 card. i just shipped a raw 66 philly bob brown yesterday. the card's a high end 7 due to just being out of the range for centering, maybe a week 8. the only reason it didn't get graded is I didn't know I had it or that people were looking for it. A past customer inquired on it last week and off it went.

AlanAllen

You might be right BoSox. I don't collect the '67 Phillies, but I do watch the market, and it appears to be a very tough set. I think they dramatically cut production for their last year, and the colored borders show wear more than other Philly issues.

Joe

JasP24

PA,

I was in the 8nd from 1993-2000. 1st of the 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment. I am now stationed in DC in the US Army Honor Guard. Since thayt's where i "grew up" in the Army, I still consider Ft. Bragg home...And it looks like I'll be back there sometime this year. Although ill probably end up spending most of my time there out of the country..

Whatever the reason , there arent many of these cards graded...If you can find a NM-MT ungraded for $5 or $10 you could easily turn it over for $50 or $60 once graded. And for those putting together the NFL HOF RC set like myself, ungraded don't count...lol

Jason

packCollector

boSox ,

the brown probably isn't as easy as you think. 66 philly is just aweful for centering and cuts. consider this, the low pops have been selling for $50 or more in psa 8 for a year and the pops are still not going up even though every one on ebay goes quite high

example chuck howley

pop 5 in psa 8 , pop 1 in psa 9 .

I graded 2 of the 8's and the 9 last July . The 8's sold for $150 on ebay. it was a pop 5 then and still is now.


there are many collectors chomping at the bit to buy 66 philly's and they just don't come up for some reason. maybe i am being niave but that is what I have seen since following the sets. I think wolfbear will agree with me when he sees this post

GoSoxBoSox

Sounds like the Philly hunt is on for Friday night

JasP24

Yep, i was a bidder on the Howley. The SMR lists the card at $25, but you can't get ungraded EX-MT Howley's for much less than that.

All the Philly cards seem to do well(exceed SMR), the 1966 and 1967 in particular. I paid $44 for my Dave Wilcox PSA 8, and $50 for my Jackie Smith 8..I consider both of those prices GREAT deals, and could guarantee they would end higher than that on ebay. Although I won't be selling.

Jason

Wabittwax

I think the reason that most vintage football is priced low is that most people around my age (28), have no idea who 90% of those guys are. But everybody my age knows who Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays are even though we weren't alive to see any of them play. I love football. Sep-Jan is no doubt my favorite time of the year. Sundays during those months is like a holiday for me, but I just can't bring myself to give a crap about cards of people I've never heard of (no offense). I'd love to work on a vintage football set one day but I'd have to read up and study the complete history of the NFL and AFL to really be into completing a set.

GoSoxBoSox

There's no place to pick-up Philly cards like the Philly area!!!

JasP24

Wabbitwax,

Take a look at my NFL HOF set. I'm doing a little bit of that by posting small player bio's for each player...Hope to be done sometime this month.lol

I think that's a great point though. And one reason many of the cards are undersubmitted, and undervalued at this point. As football continues to take over as the #1 sport in the U.S., new collectors will continue to learn more about the old time football greats. The new NFL channel is a great first step as well...I love watching those old videos of games and players from the 50's and 60's. I think more and more people will continue to be "turned on" to the football sets.

Jason

SOM

Just curious, Jason...

why don't they consider the Topps 1984 USFL card as Jim Kelly's rookie card?

Great collection, meanwhile!

Nick

Davemri

Nick, that is a topic us football collectors have been debating. I believe jason and I were the only 2 that wanted the USFL cards added.
Anyway, the topps cards are much cheaper and easier to obtain.

dave

AlanAllen

I was with you guys on the USFL's. I also advocated the 1950 Topps Feltbacks for Creekmur and Stautner, which are widely recognized at their RC's. There was a lot of disagreement and eventually comprimise getting that set uploaded .

Joe

JasP24

PSA choose to not have any Non-mainstream, oddball, insert, serial numbered, college or non NFL(CFL or USFL) cards in the HOF RC set...lol

I guess that sums it up...I would have prefered the Kelly USFL, but hey I can still add the USFL Kelly to the All-Time QB set i guess...

Jason

Fuzz

One rational point on the Kelly card is that the USFL is not the NFL. This is an "NFL HOF" set and since he was not in the league at the time, it does make a bit of since. That would open you up to things like Nu Cards or even college issued sets down the road for RC's.
I think it may be best this way. And good Lord, does anybody really want to have to find Felt Backs?
Fuzz

pandrews

<< <i>PA,

I was in the 8nd from 1993-2000. 1st of the 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment. I am now stationed in DC in the US Army Honor Guard. Since thayt's where i "grew up" in the Army, I still consider Ft. Bragg home...And it looks like I'll be back there sometime this year. Although ill probably end up spending most of my time there out of the country..
Jason >>



ALL THE WAY!

AlanAllen

I have to disagree with you guys. Nowhere on the set does it say "NFL," and although the Pro Football HOF in Canton is affiliated with the NFL, it honors players from other leagues as well.

Speaking only of cards, Billy Shaw NEVER PLAYED ONE DOWN in the NFL, only in the AFL, and his RC is in an AFL-only set. Of course the AFL later merged into the NFL so perhaps it's a fine point. But looking more globally, both the '52 Bowman (partially) and '55 Topps sets were college sets, and there are lots of cards from both of those sets in the HOF RC set.

Anyway, it's fun to debate, but it's moot because the decision has been made.

Joe

shouldabeena10

Well if it ever comes up for review or a vote again... you can put me down for the USFL versions too. The USFL sets have way too many great players (and RC's) to be lumped in with the other non-mainstream football sets. Not to mention that the rookie cards from these sets are by and far the most sought after for each of the players.

Mike

duner

the whole set registry justifications seem paradoxical....can anyone explain why the '55 aa fats henry is in the hof rookie set but not included in the hof/admin set....why is tom landry in the hof/admin set but not the hof rookie set??? i'm sure there are more that i haven't picked up on.

JasP24

Well, I as well as Joe and Dave, can probably answer a few of these because we were right in thte middle of the HOF RC debate last year. The HOF Rookie PLAYER set is just that. Since Landry was inducted because of his accompkishments as a COACH, he was not included in the HOF Rookie PLAYERS set.

Pete "Fats" Henry IS included in the HOF/Admin set. That set can accept ANY card of any of the players, coaches and administrators. It was the original HOF set, which is why we lobbied for a Rookie player set with specific cards for each player.

The USFL cards, I fought to the end to have included. Those cards specifically I always considered "mainstream". But in the end, the were lumped into the same category as say 1961 Nu-Cards or reginal issues like Team Sets. All-in-all Id rather have none of those oddball cards rather than all of them.

Hope that gives you some insight Duner,
Jason

duner

Jasp that clears some stuff up....one question. is wilber "fats" henry=pete henry??? that might be why i missed it.

duner

although, this topic has severely veared off course. I agree football is much harder to locate. I've solely purchased vintage football for the past year, and almost all my stellar finds have come from off ebay purchases. My uncle concentrates on vintage baseball and he never has a problem finding anything he's looking for...as long as he's willing to pull out the checkbook and draw into the overdraft. Football is completely different. when i was trying to complete my '51 set i could sit for weeks with less than 20 listings at a time on ebay. I then went fishing on google...with similar results. when the smoke cleared i think i ended up purchasing 70% of the set from three registry people. the same is now true while looking for specific '50 and '55 cards. the best strategy going now is waiting for jasp to upgrade and then buy his scraps.


on another addressed topic in this thread, while many have said they don't even know the old timers' names....i didn't either before started collecting. but i'd have to say the stories behind the individuals are truly intriguing. Like Jasp, i've included short bios in my '51 set of all the players. it's amazing to see the adversity these guys fought through. most of them had to interrupt college to fight in wars. they've got graduate and law degrees. they've landed at normandy and iwo jima...purple hearts...flying crosses. the list goes on. it's amazing what professional sports has regressed to with today's prima donnas.

Davemri

Football and Basketball are much harder to find than baseball. I also agree with Jason that football (and basketball) are very underpriced currently and that future demand will drive these prices. Baseball, although considered the national pastime, has been plagued with numerous negative issues (steroids, juiced ball?, contraction, no salary cap, etc....) I believe that collectors in my age group (late 20's) will not be wanting to collect baseball in years to come. I stopped collecting baseball in the mid 90's and dont plan to start again any time soon.

dave

Wabittwax

I do agree that vintage football prices can only go up. I do find it much funner though to collect modern football. Although I'm not too fond of newer cards, I recognize the players better. Maybe someday I'll dive into old players histories a little more to educate myself.

wolfbear

Lots of good football stuff in this thread.

Agree about 1966 Philly football being super tough. Most of the cards that aren't off-center, are diamond cut.
So right off the top, you've got to throw out 95 % of the cards, and then try to find decent corners on the 5 % that are left.

I didn't know that much about 1960's football when I started putting the sets together.
Followed baseball as a kid in the early 60's, and the late 60's were ... well the late 60's,
but these were a bunch of colorful characters that played the games and learning about them is downright fun.

Now, what's this 'NFL Channel' ? I get a few hundred channels on dish-tv, but have never run across it ...

Fabfrank

I grew up and collected mainly baseball in the 70's. Football cards were the "red-headed stepchildren" in my neighborhood. But as a got older and played organized football, I started watching more and reading more about the history of the sport. I totally agree with jasp24 and others who say football is undervalued, even at it's current record levels. Now just shut up until I can finish my sets

P.S. For great reading about football in the 50's and 60's, pick up Art Donovans book. I forgot the name but the stories are priceless. Also, read R. Reilley's column in Sports Illustrated this week (Sebastian Telfair is on the cover). Sad but true story of what is happening to some old-time great NFL HOF'ers.

JasP24

The NFL Channel is only on DirecTV right now i think, but it has quickly become my favorite channel. I would bet that it ends up on every cable system in a couple of years..Lots of great stuff, with a live show "NFL Total Access" on every single night..

Here's another prime example of how crazy football prices have gotten. PSA 9 1977 Topps Mike Haynes(HOF RC) just sold for $510.00. The SMR is $45.

PSA 9 Haynes

Probably a card you could find ungraded for $10. But its the only 9, with very few 8's and no 10s...

Jason

packCollector

who wants football cards? that was my attitude collecting in the 80's , the only card that interested me was the joe namath rookie. I thought the tall boy was cool and it was the only card worth anything. same with basketball, lew alcindor rookie was that only one that was cool. now that I am older and tend to think I am wiser , football cards provide a nice alternative to the mainstream baseball sets . I learn more every time I take a look at some of these cards. It's amazing that i have had piles of phillys of hall of famers and had to look them up and then say "cool , he is in the hall of fame". the cards give me a way to learn the history I never followed in the past I too think they will get more popular as more people like me connect with the players of the past that we knew nothing about.