I think it would be the wrong move to go to the store to start trouble. It's just not worth the problems that could occur- I mean this could erupt into a fight or a busted up store with you paying for damages and sitting in jail.
Hey darktone, just how much of a thug do you think I am? Anyway, I only carry the baseball bat around for protection. Protection, I tell you!
As I indicated earlier in this thread, I am getting a bit jaded by all of these whiny threads about customer service. If there is an ethical issue (misrepresented coin, bait-and-switch, counterfeit, doctored coin, or some other swindle), I think that this forum is an appropriate place to discuss the issue.
When the issue is that so-and-so was grumpy, not hospitable, rude, hostile, smelled bad, or whatever, those problems are usually not isolated and usually take care of themselves over time.
To put the shoe on the other foot, how would I like it if JoeBlow Coinshop posted a thread about me such as: "Has anyone ever dealt with RYK before? He is a real jerk. We offered him a nice selection of Dahlonega half eagles, and he curtly said that he did not need any of these. Then, he said that if we could not come up with any coins that he did need, he was going to go somewhere else. We sent him a nice, original Charlotte half eagle last month, and he took a week to decide whether to keep it. Then, he sent us a bunch of crummy cull Indian cents that he wanted us to take in trade for the Charlotte piece. What a tool!"
RYK, First, such a thread about a customer would be fair if warranted. It's our First Amendment right to post such things, and the readers can take from it what they will. Second, I haven't gone back and checked all my posts, but I don't recall calling these folks anything that resembles "a tool." THAT would be inappropriate. Customer service is at the crux of the coin business and if it's inappropriate to post about it, what is it appropriate to post about?
Oh, the old First Amendment. No one ever said it is illegal to complain about rudeness on the message boards. I was just using my First Amendment right to indicate my displeasure with such a rant.
I agree. You did refrain from name calling which puts you ahead of many around here (see other thread that I am posting on regarding ebay mishap).
My feeling is that such an issue is best resolved between the two parties. You have a problem with the service at Teaparty. You write a letter to Gail (like the excellent one you did). She responds. Maybe there will be another response. Maybe not. You decide whether to go back or not. End of story.
"Has anyone ever dealt with RYK before? He is a real jerk. We offered him a nice selection of Dahlonega half eagles, and he curtly said that he did not need any of these. Then, he said that if we could not come up with any coins that he did need, he was going to go somewhere else. We sent him a nice, original Charlotte half eagle last month, and he took a week to decide whether to keep it. Then, he sent us a bunch of crummy cull Indian cents that he wanted us to take in trade for the Charlotte piece. What a tool!"
<< <i><< The big kicker is they WON'T guarantee grades with TPGs. >>
rather ridiculous to expect someone to guarantee someone ELSE'S opinion on a grade, isn't it? why would you try to make such an absurd expectation a reason to shop/not to shop w/ someone? >>
I don't think that's a ridiculous expectation, Karl. If a potential buyer wants a raw coin slabbed prior to purchase and is willing to pay the slabbing fee if it gets the same grade that the seller represents the coin to be, what's wrong with that? The seller is free to decline or accept the offer. But simply asking is not ridiculous or absurd. >>
what's wrong w/ that is very simple, nobody, NOBODY can "guarantee" what someone else is going to think. what kind of coin collectors are we raising here, people who can't decide for themselves whether or not they like a coin for the price? sheeesh. is it really such a horrible thing today to take reponsiblity on YOURSELF for what you buy?
<< <i>Ok, so if I net out what I'm hearing here, if you're gonna deal with Teaparty, deal with Liz. Via Liz you get pay and are paid premium prices for premium goods >>
<< <i><< The big kicker is they WON'T guarantee grades with TPGs. >> rather ridiculous to expect someone to guarantee someone ELSE'S opinion on a grade, isn't it? why would you try to make such an absurd expectation a reason to shop/not to shop w/ someone? >> I don't think that's a ridiculous expectation, Karl. If a potential buyer wants a raw coin slabbed prior to purchase and is willing to pay the slabbing fee if it gets the same grade that the seller represents the coin to be, what's wrong with that? The seller is free to decline or accept the offer. But simply asking is not ridiculous or absurd. >>
what's wrong w/ that is very simple, nobody, NOBODY can "guarantee" what someone else is going to think. what kind of coin collectors are we raising here, people who can't decide for themselves whether or not they like a coin for the price? sheeesh. is it really such a horrible thing today to take reponsiblity on YOURSELF for what you buy?
<< <i>Ok, so if I net out what I'm hearing here, if you're gonna deal with Teaparty, deal with Liz. Via Liz you get pay and are paid premium prices for premium goods >>
bingo K S >>
I disagree Anyone can guarantee anything, all they have to do is pay up if it fails. In this case, a coin sent to PCGS with a guarantee that it will grade at least X, if it fails, the guaranteeing party just has to pay up, what ever the guarantee is for. Of course they cannot know for certain what the TPG service will give, but to make amends, all they have to do is pay.
100% true. however, it's a silly "reason" to buy a coin from someone, because they "guarantee" that someone entirely outside the transaction will have a specific opinion.
"Bought $10k in bullion gold from the old guy one day who, as he took my money, told me I was making a mistake, that I shouldn't buy gold because it's a lousy investment."
If I found out that one of my empoyees made such a statement, I'd hand him his paycheck, thank him for his assistance, and kick his ass out the door!
Dorkkarl is right. It would also be foolhardy business to "guarantee" anything that's out of your immediate control. You'd spend half your time dealing with the issues that arose out of such a guarantee. Anyone who knows the variability between TPGs and the variability even within one TPG would steer clear of any such kind of guarantee.
Though a guarantee of grade would be nice, I agree that it's a lot to expect.
Besides, what if the coin were slabbed at a HIGHER grade? Would the buyer be expected to reimburse the seller for the score? It's the risk you take when buying and selling raw coins.
<< <i>So here's the response: Not a lot of substance, but a nicely worded apology... it seems that a previous poster was correct; she is relatively low on the totem pole, but she is forwarding the e-mail to higher-ups, so it'll be interesting to see if they respond...
It was nice to get a quick reply... to me, it shows she does care...
===============================================
Dear Mr. Schiffler:
Thank you for your e-mail, I cannot apologize enough on behalf of the company. It is never our intention to treat anyone rudely or with disrespect and I personally am sorry you felt that your experience in the store was a bad one. I have forwarded this e-mail to Scott Sparks and Miles Coggan the owners of the company for their review as they are more in tune with what happens in the store. I work mostly out of my home in New Hampshire for J. J. Teaparty and my main job is the Want List program, and phone sales from our monthly catalogue and the internet. I truly value all of our customers, it does not matter what they spend or how old they are. There have been may times when I have sold a customer a $50.00 coin only to have them come back and buy a $10,000.00 coin and I have had the pleasure of helping them for several years thereafter.
The main reason I love what I do is because of the customer contact and the friendships I have build over the years with my customers. It is so gratifying to know that I have truly helped a customer find just the right coin.
Again I cannot apologize enough and hopefully you will give us another try. I know we are not the biggest company out there but each and every customer does matter to us.
Thank you so much for your input and I hope you will try us again, please feel free to call me toll-free at 877-772-4245 if I can assist you again in the future.
Best wishes,
Gail A. Watson >>
I rest my case. If you're going to deal with Teaparty, deal with the women who work there... Liz and Gail. Forget about the grumpy old pharts.
Atomic
Estragon: I can't go on like this. Vladimir: That's what you think. - Samuel Beckett, Waiting For Godot
<< <i>I've had exactly the same experience at JJ Teaparty. Grumpy salesmen that made sarcastic remarks. I'm 40 years old, but the last time I was there, I was wearing jeans and a teeshirt. Maybe they didn't see me as a potential high end buyer. I nevertheless ended up spending $1000 for some nice coins, but I haven't returned, even though their shop is only a few miles from my apartment. >>
My first experience with J.J. Teaparty was when I was in high school just north of Boston in the mid-1970s. I had purchased a few Ikes from them which sold for hefty premiums soon after they were no longer available from the mint. A few months later, when it came time to raise cash for my first car (a $250 1960 Cadillac convertible), they offered me less than melt for the coins in my Whitman folders and 10% over face for my Buffalo nickel set. I walked next door and cashed in the same coins for a better offer that made me a Cadillac owner at age 16. (There were 3 coin shops on Boston's Bromfield St. at that time.)
My most recent experience with J.J. Teaparty was when I purchased a semi-key Barber dime from one of their eBay auctions 3 years ago. No one else had that date in as high a circulated grade. Their grading was optimistic but not as outrageously overgraded as some other sellers. I still have the coin, haven't upgraded, and will probably never break even on the deal. I am now 45 and probably won't buy from them again until Alzheimer's kicks in (hopefully not until I am 90 and live in Boston again).
"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor
They like the coin a lot but don't really know how to grade the series and don't want to get burned financially. What in the world would be wrong with that?
They haven't done the research first, and they deserve to get burned.
What's silly is that we as a numismatic community spend hundreds, thousands and millions every single year on these silly metal discs all for the sake of giving a few thousand people (dealers) a livelihood. On the totality, coins are a HORRIBLE investment so making money certainly is not why we (collectors) do it I find it not the least bit "silly" that we try to protect our hard earned money where possible.
I heartily agree. Coins are for collecting, not for investing.
By your thinking, old widows who get swindled for their life savings by con men didn't "do their research" so their is nothing wrong with the con men, just the victims I suppose.
Yes, that's right. I'm sorry, really I am, but I didn't invent the world, I just live in it.
Fair enough. I don't subscribe to your philosophy but don't frown on those who do. However, I do feel there is a right and a wrong and while I very much understand the world we live in, I don't think that line of thinking makes it any better to live in. I don't believe that you and I "just live in it" but rather are a part of it and can effect change for the better or worse.
Don't get me wrong. I also abhor injustice, and any kind of swindling. In fact, I find a great deal of what happens in the general market of numismatics absolutely deplorable. But I believe that the solution lies in the education of the buyer.
Dick Osburn also has a return policy that allows you to return a raw coin that doesn't "grade out" at a TPG. You only need to let him know that you intend to send it in.
It's my guess that his revenues are 35% higher because of this policy. I have to believe his net profit is materially higher because of this policy.
He gets a good deal of my business....and I appreciate the ability to get a third opinion on an expensive, raw coin.
<< <i><<rather ridiculous to expect someone to guarantee someone ELSE'S opinion on a grade, isn't it? why would you try to make such an absurd expectation a reason to shop/not to shop w/ someone?>>
dorkkarl, just because YOU think it is absurd does not mean that EVERYONE does. >>
never made such a claim, but regardless, your unfortunately correct. MOST people don't want to accept responsibility for their own opinion, they'd rather pay someone else to be responsible for forming an opinion. i'd hardly portray that attitude as "positive"!
it's 1 thing to pay for a certified car, since either the car works or it doesn't work, & your left stranded in the middle of the desert. but c/mon, do you REALLY need a shadowy, anonymous corporation to TELL YOU whether you like a coin or not?
<< <i> A LOT of dealers engage in these types of return guarantees whereby if a coin doesn't grade at a certain level, the buyer has the right to return it >>
i agree there are a lot of stupid dealers! for example, if the coin grades HIGHER, does the buyer out of the goodness of his heart then pay the dealer MORE? besides, when you claim "A LOT of dealers", what percentage are you estimating have such a ridiculous guarantee? just your guess.
<< <i>Take for instance a collector who may want to buy a coin on their list that is outside of their specialty. They like the coin a lot but don't really know how to grade the series and don't want to get burned financially. >>
simple solution: find 1 already in a slab
<< <i><< 100% true. however, it's a silly "reason" to buy a coin from someone, because they "guarantee" that someone entirely outside the transaction will have a specific opinion.>>
What's silly is that we as a numismatic community spend hundreds, thousands and millions every single year on these silly metal discs all for the sake of giving a few thousand people (dealers) a livelihood. On the totality, coins are a HORRIBLE investment so making money certainly is not why we (collectors) do it I find it not the least bit "silly" that we try to protect our hard earned money where possible. >>
totally agree, which is why i tell people all the time if your buying slabs because the horror of financial loss is such a paralyzing fear for you, COLLECT SOMETHING ELSE.
<< <i>How boring coin collecting would be if we all spent innumerous amount of time to learn everything we can about a particular purchase before buying. >>
so slabs have made coin collecting LESS boring??? uh yeah, now, instead of holding a coin IN YOUR HAND, you get to glare at it through a pocket-protector sized chunk of plastic. THAT'S exciting.
If a collector buys a raw coin from me and wants it certified. -I will not guarantee the grade. -I'll tell the collector the range I think it will come back. -I will guarantee that the coin will slab though.
<< <i>don't want to get burned financially >>
Why do people think they won't get burned if it is in a slab, some protection but not complete protection. The TPG's are not perfect. Coin Doctors get coins past them regularly. Plus they are holdering many cleaned and repaired coins.
Coin grading is subjective.....it's an opinion. People pay for subjective opinions on real estate, antiques, art, jewelry, and even when buying and selling businesses. People can now get a professional, subjective opinion on the grade of rare coins.
I continued to be amazed at the coin dealers that fail to appreciate the value of a professional, third party opinion when it comes to the purchase of slabbed coins.
Really.......it has the feel of a real estate seller that tells a buyer that it is foolish to get a third opinion of value.
If you don't want or need one...fine it's your money. However, regardless of your expertice; I would find it foolish for someone purchasing a $5,000 coin to not spend $30 to get a professional opinion as to value and authenticity if only for insurance and estate purposes.
<< <i>I would find it foolish for someone purchasing a $5,000 coin to not spend $30 to get a professional opinion as to value and authenticity if only for insurance and estate purposes >>
i would find it foolish for someone spending $5000 on a coin to be ignorant of grading!
I too would find it foolish for someone to buy a $5,000 coin and be ignorant of grading.....as it would be equally foolish to not get a professional opinion of the grade as well for only $25.
I might think I know the real estate values, however it would be foolish to buy a piece of property at retail value and not also get a professional opinion of its value and the authenticity of the title being passed.
Even Warren Buffet has professionals appraise the value of a business when he buys one. And, even Warren Buffet has professionals that ascertain the authenticity of the balance sheet. He understands the value of a second or third opinion when making a significant investment.
I don't think it's foolish to spend $5,000.00 on a coin if you don't know anything about grading. That's the exact reason we have grading companies and respected dealers that a collector can trust. It's because of the TPGS's and other market factors that have helped increase the values of our collections. It gives a person who doesn't have the time to totally immerse themselves in the hobby to still enjoy coins and history with some sense of security.
it's a silly "reason" to buy a coin from someone, because they "guarantee" that someone entirely outside the transaction will have a specific opinion.
It's not silly if the TPG opinion has a market value. Which, in the case of PCGS and NGC coins, it usually does. On the other hand, it's stupid for a dealer to guaranty the grade unless they are being compensated for that guaranty. In other words, if you want a guaranty, expect to pay extra for it.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I too would find it foolish for someone to buy a $5,000 coin and be ignorant of grading.....as it would be equally foolish to not get a professional opinion of the grade as well for only $25.
I might think I know the real estate values, however it would be foolish to buy a piece of property at retail value and not also get a professional opinion of its value and the authenticity of the title being passed.
Even Warren Buffet has professionals appraise the value of a business when he buys one. And, even Warren Buffet has professionals that ascertain the authenticity of the balance sheet. He understands the value of a second or third opinion when making a significant investment >>
the difference is your real estate title search seeks out FACTS, ie. either the title is GOOD or it is NOT GOOD. a grade of a coin is an OPINION, NOT a fact. that's the difference, & i don't understand why folks can't understand that, again, GRADING OF COINS IS SUBJECTIVE, A GRADE IS AN OPINION, NOT A FACT.
<< <i>it's a silly "reason" to buy a coin from someone, because they "guarantee" that someone entirely outside the transaction will have a specific opinion.
It's not silly if the TPG opinion has a market value. Which, in the case of PCGS and NGC coins, it usually does. On the other hand, it's stupid for a dealer to guaranty the grade unless they are being compensated for that guaranty. In other words, if you want a guaranty, expect to pay extra for it. >>
mr-eureka, that doesn't make sense in that the dealers were offering UNCERTIFIED coins, so someone's going to buy them based on the alleged "future" value of when it gets slabed? that's silly. however, i utterly agree w/ your follow-up statement.
the absurdity of certifying coins for "grade" derives simply & directly from the fact that there is NO SUCH INHERENT CHARACTERISTIC of coins as "grade". it is purely opinion, not "fact". it's a figment of a collector's imagination, & to assume that you can "guarantee" something that does not exist IS ABSURD.
if such wonderful dealers REALLY want to help you out, ie. guarantee you don't get hosed on a coin, they should set up an insurance policy whereby when you go to sell the coin, they guarantee you will get 100% of your cost back, or make up the difference. the fact that they don't do that proves they really don't give a rat's rear-end whether the coin grades or not.
Comments
Hey darktone, just how much of a thug do you think I am? Anyway, I only carry the baseball bat around for protection. Protection, I tell you!
We ARE watching you.
When the issue is that so-and-so was grumpy, not hospitable, rude, hostile, smelled bad, or whatever, those problems are usually not isolated and usually take care of themselves over time.
To put the shoe on the other foot, how would I like it if JoeBlow Coinshop posted a thread about me such as:
"Has anyone ever dealt with RYK before? He is a real jerk. We offered him a nice selection of Dahlonega half eagles, and he curtly said that he did not need any of these. Then, he said that if we could not come up with any coins that he did need, he was going to go somewhere else. We sent him a nice, original Charlotte half eagle last month, and he took a week to decide whether to keep it. Then, he sent us a bunch of crummy cull Indian cents that he wanted us to take in trade for the Charlotte piece. What a tool!"
First, such a thread about a customer would be fair if warranted. It's our First Amendment right to post such things, and the readers can take from it what they will. Second, I haven't gone back and checked all my posts, but I don't recall calling these folks anything that resembles "a tool." THAT would be inappropriate. Customer service is at the crux of the coin business and if it's inappropriate to post about it, what is it appropriate to post about?
I agree. You did refrain from name calling which puts you ahead of many around here (see other thread that I am posting on regarding ebay mishap).
My feeling is that such an issue is best resolved between the two parties. You have a problem with the service at Teaparty. You write a letter to Gail (like the excellent one you did). She responds. Maybe there will be another response. Maybe not. You decide whether to go back or not. End of story.
Man, you are a tool, RYK.
We ARE watching you.
I cannot argue with your use of the First Amandment in that manner.
BTW, an alternative title to this thread would be:
JJ Teaparty: Not my cup of tea.
<< <i><< The big kicker is they WON'T guarantee grades with TPGs. >>
rather ridiculous to expect someone to guarantee someone ELSE'S opinion on a grade, isn't it? why would you try to make such an absurd expectation a reason to shop/not to shop w/ someone? >>
I don't think that's a ridiculous expectation, Karl. If a potential buyer wants a raw coin slabbed prior to purchase and is willing to pay the slabbing fee if it gets the same grade that the seller represents the coin to be, what's wrong with that? The seller is free to decline or accept the offer. But simply asking is not ridiculous or absurd. >>
what's wrong w/ that is very simple, nobody, NOBODY can "guarantee" what someone else is going to think. what kind of coin collectors are we raising here, people who can't decide for themselves whether or not they like a coin for the price? sheeesh. is it really such a horrible thing today to take reponsiblity on YOURSELF for what you buy?
<< <i>Ok, so if I net out what I'm hearing here, if you're gonna deal with Teaparty, deal with Liz. Via Liz you get pay and are paid premium prices for premium goods >>
bingo
K S
<< <i>
<< <i><< The big kicker is they WON'T guarantee grades with TPGs. >> rather ridiculous to expect someone to guarantee someone ELSE'S opinion on a grade, isn't it? why would you try to make such an absurd expectation a reason to shop/not to shop w/ someone? >> I don't think that's a ridiculous expectation, Karl. If a potential buyer wants a raw coin slabbed prior to purchase and is willing to pay the slabbing fee if it gets the same grade that the seller represents the coin to be, what's wrong with that? The seller is free to decline or accept the offer. But simply asking is not ridiculous or absurd. >>
what's wrong w/ that is very simple, nobody, NOBODY can "guarantee" what someone else is going to think. what kind of coin collectors are we raising here, people who can't decide for themselves whether or not they like a coin for the price? sheeesh. is it really such a horrible thing today to take reponsiblity on YOURSELF for what you buy?
<< <i>Ok, so if I net out what I'm hearing here, if you're gonna deal with Teaparty, deal with Liz. Via Liz you get pay and are paid premium prices for premium goods >>
bingo K S >>
I disagree
Tom
K S
If I found out that one of my empoyees made such a statement, I'd hand him his paycheck, thank him for his assistance, and kick his ass out the door!
We ARE watching you.
Besides, what if the coin were slabbed at a HIGHER grade? Would the buyer be expected to reimburse the seller for the score? It's the risk you take when buying and selling raw coins.
<< <i>So here's the response: Not a lot of substance, but a nicely worded apology... it seems that a previous poster was correct; she is relatively low on the totem pole, but she is forwarding the e-mail to higher-ups, so it'll be interesting to see if they respond...
It was nice to get a quick reply... to me, it shows she does care...
===============================================
Dear Mr. Schiffler:
Thank you for your e-mail, I cannot apologize enough on behalf of the
company. It is never our intention to treat anyone rudely or with disrespect
and I personally am sorry you felt that your experience in the store was a
bad one. I have forwarded this e-mail to Scott Sparks and Miles Coggan the
owners of the company for their review as they are more in tune with what
happens in the store. I work mostly out of my home in New Hampshire for J.
J. Teaparty and my main job is the Want List program, and phone sales from
our monthly catalogue and the internet. I truly value all of our customers,
it does not matter what they spend or how old they are. There have been may
times when I have sold a customer a $50.00 coin only to have them come back
and buy a $10,000.00 coin and I have had the pleasure of helping them for
several years thereafter.
The main reason I love what I do is because of the customer contact and the
friendships I have build over the years with my customers. It is so
gratifying to know that I have truly helped a customer find just the right
coin.
Again I cannot apologize enough and hopefully you will give us another try.
I know we are not the biggest company out there but each and every customer
does matter to us.
Thank you so much for your input and I hope you will try us again, please
feel free to call me toll-free at 877-772-4245 if I can assist you again in
the future.
Best wishes,
Gail A. Watson >>
I rest my case. If you're going to deal with Teaparty, deal with the women who work there... Liz and Gail. Forget about the grumpy old pharts.
Atomic
Vladimir: That's what you think.
- Samuel Beckett, Waiting For Godot
<< <i>I've had exactly the same experience at JJ Teaparty. Grumpy salesmen that made sarcastic remarks. I'm 40 years old, but the last time I was there, I was wearing jeans and a teeshirt. Maybe they didn't see me as a potential high end buyer. I nevertheless ended up spending $1000 for some nice coins, but I haven't returned, even though their shop is only a few miles from my apartment. >>
My first experience with J.J. Teaparty was when I was in high school just north of Boston in the mid-1970s. I had purchased a few Ikes from them which sold for hefty premiums soon after they were no longer available from the mint. A few months later, when it came time to raise cash for my first car (a $250 1960 Cadillac convertible), they offered me less than melt for the coins in my Whitman folders and 10% over face for my Buffalo nickel set. I walked next door and cashed in the same coins for a better offer that made me a Cadillac owner at age 16. (There were 3 coin shops on Boston's Bromfield St. at that time.)
My most recent experience with J.J. Teaparty was when I purchased a semi-key Barber dime from one of their eBay auctions 3 years ago. No one else had that date in as high a circulated grade. Their grading was optimistic but not as outrageously overgraded as some other sellers. I still have the coin, haven't upgraded, and will probably never break even on the deal. I am now 45 and probably won't buy from them again until Alzheimer's kicks in (hopefully not until I am 90 and live in Boston again).
They haven't done the research first, and they deserve to get burned.
We ARE watching you.
I heartily agree. Coins are for collecting, not for investing.
We ARE watching you.
Yes, that's right. I'm sorry, really I am, but I didn't invent the world, I just live in it.
A sucker needs a suckee. P.T. Barnum said it all.
We ARE watching you.
Don't get me wrong. I also abhor injustice, and any kind of swindling. In fact, I find a great deal of what happens in the general market of numismatics absolutely deplorable. But I believe that the solution lies in the education of the buyer.
We ARE watching you.
It's my guess that his revenues are 35% higher because of this policy. I have to believe his net profit is materially higher because of this policy.
He gets a good deal of my business....and I appreciate the ability to get a third opinion on an expensive, raw coin.
<< <i><<rather ridiculous to expect someone to guarantee someone ELSE'S opinion on a grade, isn't it? why would you try to make such an absurd expectation a reason to shop/not to shop w/ someone?>>
dorkkarl, just because YOU think it is absurd does not mean that EVERYONE does. >>
never made such a claim, but regardless, your unfortunately correct. MOST people don't want to accept responsibility for their own opinion, they'd rather pay someone else to be responsible for forming an opinion. i'd hardly portray that attitude as "positive"!
it's 1 thing to pay for a certified car, since either the car works or it doesn't work, & your left stranded in the middle of the desert. but c/mon, do you REALLY need a shadowy, anonymous corporation to TELL YOU whether you like a coin or not?
<< <i> A LOT of dealers engage in these types of return guarantees whereby if a coin doesn't grade at a certain level, the buyer has the right to return it >>
i agree there are a lot of stupid dealers! for example, if the coin grades HIGHER, does the buyer out of the goodness of his heart then pay the dealer MORE? besides, when you claim "A LOT of dealers", what percentage are you estimating have such a ridiculous guarantee? just your guess.
<< <i>Take for instance a collector who may want to buy a coin on their list that is outside of their specialty. They like the coin a lot but don't really know how to grade the series and don't want to get burned financially. >>
simple solution: find 1 already in a slab
<< <i><< 100% true. however, it's a silly "reason" to buy a coin from someone, because they "guarantee" that someone entirely outside the transaction will have a specific opinion.>>
What's silly is that we as a numismatic community spend hundreds, thousands and millions every single year on these silly metal discs all for the sake of giving a few thousand people (dealers) a livelihood. On the totality, coins are a HORRIBLE investment so making money certainly is not why we (collectors) do it I find it not the least bit "silly" that we try to protect our hard earned money where possible. >>
totally agree, which is why i tell people all the time if your buying slabs because the horror of financial loss is such a paralyzing fear for you, COLLECT SOMETHING ELSE.
<< <i>How boring coin collecting would be if we all spent innumerous amount of time to learn everything we can about a particular purchase before buying. >>
so slabs have made coin collecting LESS boring??? uh yeah, now, instead of holding a coin IN YOUR HAND, you get to glare at it through a pocket-protector sized chunk of plastic. THAT'S exciting.
K S
-I will not guarantee the grade.
-I'll tell the collector the range I think it will come back.
-I will guarantee that the coin will slab though.
<< <i>don't want to get burned financially >>
Why do people think they won't get burned if it is in a slab, some protection but not complete protection.
The TPG's are not perfect. Coin Doctors get coins past them regularly. Plus they are holdering many cleaned and repaired coins.
I continued to be amazed at the coin dealers that fail to appreciate the value of a professional, third party opinion when it comes to the purchase of slabbed coins.
Really.......it has the feel of a real estate seller that tells a buyer that it is foolish to get a third opinion of value.
If you don't want or need one...fine it's your money. However, regardless of your expertice; I would find it foolish for someone purchasing a $5,000 coin to not spend $30 to get a professional opinion as to value and authenticity if only for insurance and estate purposes.
<< <i>I would find it foolish for someone purchasing a $5,000 coin to not spend $30 to get a professional opinion as to value and authenticity if only for insurance and estate purposes >>
i would find it foolish for someone spending $5000 on a coin to be ignorant of grading!
K S
I too would find it foolish for someone to buy a $5,000 coin and be ignorant of grading.....as it would be equally foolish to not get a professional opinion of the grade as well for only $25.
I might think I know the real estate values, however it would be foolish to buy a piece of property at retail value and not also get a professional opinion of its value and the authenticity of the title being passed.
Even Warren Buffet has professionals appraise the value of a business when he buys one. And, even Warren Buffet has professionals that ascertain the authenticity of the balance sheet. He understands the value of a second or third opinion when making a significant investment.
Four eyes are better than two!!! Especially when the two extra eyes are well trained.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Exactly! I appreciate your professional opinion!
JOC
I think I'm going to be ill now....
You can bite me now. And, remember that I'll be seeing you in a couple of weeks -- so behave yourself!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
That's the exact reason we have grading companies and respected dealers that a collector can trust.
It's because of the TPGS's and other market factors that have helped increase the values of our collections.
It gives a person who doesn't have the time to totally immerse themselves in the hobby to still enjoy coins and history with some sense of security.
It's not silly if the TPG opinion has a market value. Which, in the case of PCGS and NGC coins, it usually does. On the other hand, it's stupid for a dealer to guaranty the grade unless they are being compensated for that guaranty. In other words, if you want a guaranty, expect to pay extra for it.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I too would find it foolish for someone to buy a $5,000 coin and be ignorant of grading.....as it would be equally foolish to not get a professional opinion of the grade as well for only $25.
I might think I know the real estate values, however it would be foolish to buy a piece of property at retail value and not also get a professional opinion of its value and the authenticity of the title being passed.
Even Warren Buffet has professionals appraise the value of a business when he buys one. And, even Warren Buffet has professionals that ascertain the authenticity of the balance sheet. He understands the value of a second or third opinion when making a significant investment >>
the difference is your real estate title search seeks out FACTS, ie. either the title is GOOD or it is NOT GOOD. a grade of a coin is an OPINION, NOT a fact. that's the difference, & i don't understand why folks can't understand that, again, GRADING OF COINS IS SUBJECTIVE, A GRADE IS AN OPINION, NOT A FACT.
<< <i>it's a silly "reason" to buy a coin from someone, because they "guarantee" that someone entirely outside the transaction will have a specific opinion.
It's not silly if the TPG opinion has a market value. Which, in the case of PCGS and NGC coins, it usually does. On the other hand, it's stupid for a dealer to guaranty the grade unless they are being compensated for that guaranty. In other words, if you want a guaranty, expect to pay extra for it. >>
mr-eureka, that doesn't make sense in that the dealers were offering UNCERTIFIED coins, so someone's going to buy them based on the alleged "future" value of when it gets slabed? that's silly. however, i utterly agree w/ your follow-up statement.
the absurdity of certifying coins for "grade" derives simply & directly from the fact that there is NO SUCH INHERENT CHARACTERISTIC of coins as "grade". it is purely opinion, not "fact". it's a figment of a collector's imagination, & to assume that you can "guarantee" something that does not exist IS ABSURD.
if such wonderful dealers REALLY want to help you out, ie. guarantee you don't get hosed on a coin, they should set up an insurance policy whereby when you go to sell the coin, they guarantee you will get 100% of your cost back, or make up the difference. the fact that they don't do that proves they really don't give a rat's rear-end whether the coin grades or not.
guaranteeing "grades" is simply ridiculous.
K S