For the Auctioneer to bid higher AFTER THE CLOSE is patently unacceptable and, in my opinion, fraudulent. Attempting to justify this behavior with the excuse that the consigner made a little more is essentially a LAME excuse in my opinion.
What about the"legitimate" high bidder not being afforded the oppertunity to raise his/her bid in this scenario?
And, would this be a good business practice considering the effect it could possibly have on future auctions conducted by this same auctioneer? By this I mean the potential disservice to future consigners when potential bidders avoid future auctions precisely because of their perception of the auctioneers unethical behavior, thereby resulting in lower bids in future auctions because of a smaller bidder pool?
And, isn't this similar to the complaints continuously posted here concerning Ebay auctions being ended early either because of a seller being offered an Email bid or not satisfied with the bid amount minutes before the close of the auction?
I missed the part about the auction being ENDED. Like woooosh, it went right over my head. No it's not right for the auctioneer to pick out coins for himself after the auction ends. That's kinda like stealing from the real high bidder.
Dog - How about one minute before the auction closes and after 99.9% of the mail bids have been received? In reality, isn't that the same thing? If so, how about an hour before the close? A day? Where do you draw the line?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
If the bid is made past the deadline, it is unethical and a violation of the terms and conditions. If the bid is made 5 minutes before the deadline, it is ethical if this action is described in the terms and conditions.
The coin market is more efficient than this example for MOST coins. A coin that is worth an EASY $5000 does not hammer for $1600, unless the auctioneer did a very poor job of marketing the mail bid sale.
The exception to this could be a thinly traded, obscure segment of the coin market, where the only players were not interested at the time of the auction, and the seller wanted to dump his holdings at any price. In this case, too bad for the seller, the demons of regret will haunt him for years to come!
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
"How about one minute before the auction closes and after 99.9% of the mail bids have been received? In reality, isn't that the same thing? If so, how about an hour before the close? A day? Where do you draw the line?
Seriously, are you kidding? How about the instant the second hand crosses the deadline?
And, by making an offer (we aren't really expected to consider this a "bid" are we?) after seeing all other bid amounts, wouldn't your actions be based on insider information?
And, by making an offer (we aren't really expected to consider this a "bid" are we?) after seeing all other bid amounts, wouldn't your actions be based on insider information?
Two questions, two answers:
1. Yes, assume that the mail bids will be reduced to one increment above the next highest bidder. I don't want to muddy the waters by introducing other issues.
2. If submitted anytime after mail bids have arrived, the auctioneer's bid could be based on "private information", i.e., other bidders' bids. That doesn't necessarily make it unethical. It depends on whether bidders have been led to believe that the auctioneer will not behave in this manner. That is rarely if ever the case.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
No, I would have to agree with the others that this is NOT ethical, and that if the auctioneer wants to bid, it should be done before the auction begins, and it also should be revealed to others that this is done, and the amount bid.
if the auctioneer wants to bid, it should be done before the auction begins
Even in that case, there is still a conflict of interest in that the auctioneer might want the coin to sell for a lower price. That could lead to a poor catalog description, the decision not to photo the lot, a refusal to accept a bid from an unknown bidder, etc, etc.
Sigh. I'm so, so confused.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Mr Eureka. What would YOU do. It's your question, what is your answer. I stand by mine. The auctioneer should not be allowed to bid in ANY MAIL BID SALE. In a live auction, if it is in the rules and upfront, I'd agree to that. But not a mail bid sale where other bidders don't have the luxury of knowing what the high bid is. The question was black and white and I think the answer is too. JMHO Steve
<<<1. Yes, assume that the mail bids will be reduced to one increment above the next highest bidder. I don't want to muddy the waters by introducing other issues.
2. If submitted anytime after mail bids have arrived, the auctioneer's bid could be based on "private information", i.e., other bidders' bids. That doesn't necessarily make it unethical. It depends on whether bidders have been led to believe that the auctioneer will not behave in this manner. That is rarely if ever the case.>>>
1. Okay, for the sake of justifying your unethical behavior, we will all "assume" whatever it takes to see it your way.
2. And, again, for the sake of justifying your unethical behavior, we will "assume" that actual bidders do not have the RIGHT to EXPECT that the auctioneer will not make an offer AFTER the close of the auction and AFTER the auctioneer has the knowledge of everyone elses top bids. SHHHEEEEESSSsssshhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
In the end, the only ethical thing for you to do is send the coin to the true high bidder at his/her bid and bear your loss as a lesson not to pull this SH*T again.
Jim
By the way, what is the title of your mail bid auctions?
<<<Dog - How about one minute before the auction closes and...Where do you draw the line?>>> Man that's really hard for me to answer because I don't even have a clue as to what is legal & what's not never mind the ethics of being an "auctioneer" in that situation. I'm being honest here, if you (or anybody else) were the one running the mail bid auction I'd expect you to send me the coin @ $1200. If I were running the mail bid myself then nobody would ever know who really won and I could make my own rules as I went and it would be hard to pass on a good deal I could cherry for myself, especially if it was a coin I really needed & wanted. Nobody would ever know who the actual high bidder was, all the individual bidders would know is that somebody won the coin & it wasn't him. But the kicker here is that you said I was the type of person that wanted to treat my buyers right and there was no mention of a reserve so I said wow this bidder got a steal @ $1200 & mail it to him. Truth be known that's probably what I'd do in real life too without even thinking about it. I face similiar situations everyday everyday being in the construction biz because I know what subs bid what amount and what the homeowners are wiling to pay. My biz is even more cutthroat than coin dealing and a contractor will shank more people for more $$ than a coin dealer can ever even think about. Like the contractor that takes 3 bids from subs on a job; $20,000, $30,000 & $40,000. The $20,000 low bidder sub is sposed to get the job & save the homeowner $20K, right? NO! The contractor charges the homeowner $40K but lets the $20k sub do it & puts an extra $20K in his own pocket. He also knows the $20k guy can't do it for that price and the job never gets completed and the sub ends up drawing only about $15K maybe so the contractor tells the homeowner it's going to cost him $25 per hour per man to get a crew to finish what the other guy started. So the contractor gets his own flunkies to finish @ $10 per hour per man and puts yet another $2,000 in his pocket. So the contractor puts $27,000 extra in his own pocket but whines & crys about how he isn't making any $$ and the homeowner, like coin collectors end very happy and unknowing that they just got a screwing from L.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
Ok I just got the results of the first mail bid auction I took part in. I won one lot and paid $15.00 under my MAX bid. I also lost one lot it went for $15.00 over my MAX bid.
<< <i>Conder - I'm not sure I get it. I understand that the auctioneer has an advantage, but why is that unfair? >>
I'm not sure I get it. All bidders have the same information and have to "shoot in the dark" trying to win except for one who gets to see exactly what it takes to win. How can it not be unfair?
Reminds me of the bidding for the ANA Convention sale one year. All the other auction houses had to submit sealed bids to run the sale, then they opened the bids, told the last auction house exactly how much each of the others had bid. Then the last house bid just slightly more and was awarded the honor of being the official Convention auctioneer.
All bidders have the same information and have to "shoot in the dark" trying to win except for one who gets to see exactly what it takes to win.
If bids are reduced like they should be, then everyone's on equal grounds EXCEPT that the auctioneer knows who is bidding. So to be fair about it, if I was an auctioneer bidding in my own sale, I would not allow myself to see the identities of the other bidders.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
What would YOU do. It's your question, what is your answer.
Sure, I'll answer. I can handle the flames!
1. I wouldn't hesitate to bid in my own sale.
2. I'd wait until the last minute to post my bids to save the hassle of calculating bids on lots that are already bringing "enough".
3. I would not bid after the bid deadline. It's not an ethical issue. I just would not want to torture my mail bidders with a long wait for results.
4. I would NOT look at the identities of the other bidders. Yes, really.
5. In my original scenario, I'd probably pay something like $3800, even though I could justify paying as little as $1600. That's just my sense of fairness based on my duty to the seller, which of course may impress you as being either stupidly generous or (for a 5K coin) borderline criminal, depending on your perspective. Everyone is different.
6. Other than my own bids, I would religiously reduce bids to one increment over the underbidder.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>6. Other than my own bids, I would religiously reduce bids to one increment over the underbidder. >>
That might be the kicker with regard to mail-in auctions. I've heard horror stories where this doesn't occur and you, as high bidder, pay the full amount you've bid. As far as a paper trail, it would just say you won everything at hammer or, if they wanted to avoid suspicion, they would lower your high bid by a set amount but certainly not down to the next increment above the next highest bid. I believe this happens more often than not too.
5. In my original scenario, I'd probably pay something like $3800, even though I could justify paying as little as $1600. That's just my sense of fairness based on my duty to the seller, which of course may impress you as being either stupidly generous or (for a 5K coin) borderline criminal, depending on your perspective. Everyone is different.
I'll agree that we are different because the above IMO is absolutely, positively WRONG!!!
Mr Eureka, You used fairness in your answer. What a joke. Anyone who would bid on their own MAIL BID sale is not honest and I wouldn't do business with them. And if you can't figure out why, it wouldn't do any good to try to explain it to you. Other board members have told you what they thought. Probably some of them are friends of yours, too. How about telling your auction sale name so I can avoid them. Unless your words are being taken out of Context. JMHO. Steve
In a mail bid sale I doubt that anyone would ever find out as long as the auctioneer kept his mouth shut.
I don't believe that knowing that this was happening in someones mail bid sale would stop me from bidding. I would still bid on the items that I wanted at the price I was willing to pay for the item. If my bid was not enough, so be it.
A lot like eBay - you cannot always be sure that the high bidder is a real bidder.
If you want to spend your money you need to determine your tolerance for the unknown, then participate only in those situations that meet your safe zone.
R.I.P. Wayne, Brad Collecting: Conder tokens 19th & 20th Century coins from Great Britain and the Realm
You really are unethical. Suprising, because I thought you brought a lot to this board. More than a lot of people. You wouldn't bid until the last minute to save YOURSELF the work of counting bids. Doesn't matter if the high bidder was willing to pay more. You wouldn't look at the names of other bidders. That has nothing to do with anything, unless you were afraid of ticking off one of your buddies by accident. Most of the people on this board said that they thought it was unethical. But you stated you would do it. Too bad; another dealer shows his true colors. Not that it is on subject, but that is EXACTLY why I mainly buy slabbed coins. You just don't know who will treat you right. JMHO. steve
You wouldn't bid until the last minute to save YOURSELF the work of counting bids. Doesn't matter if the high bidder was willing to pay more.
No. I said it would save me the trouble of CALCULATING my own bids. The reason that's important is that I might have thousands of coins consigned to my auction and not enough time to figure MY bids for all of them. If I wait until the end, I can carefully figure the few lots where my bids might help the consignor get more money for his coins. I might even get to make a few extra bucks for my effort. Maybe that's still unethical in your book, but at least accuse me of the proper crime.
You wouldn't look at the names of other bidders. That has nothing to do with anything...
Actually, it's critical. I think it would be unethical for an auctioneer to "go to school" on a mail bidder's bid. However, that will only happen if the auctioneer knows the identity of the mail bidder and he respects the mail bidder. NOBODY with half a brain is going to pay more for a coin just because some UNKNOWN bidder placed a high bid.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Andy, do you mean you are the one running the auction( meaning you own the auction service) or do you mean you are consigning some of your clients coins to an auction that someone else owns? mike
<< <i>The hypothetical case is that I own the auction company >>
That's the way I understood it at first but I was starting to wonder after I read everything again. I don't think any auction services should be allowed to bid on their own auctions- it's a conflict of interest( but I guess you knew this or you would have never asked the question). mike
Mr Eureka, You never said anything about calculating YOUR own bids. It was bids. Almost everyone said what you were stating was unethical. But you ignore that in our discussion. Every other board member has dropped out of this. I think probably because they don't want to undermine you. I don't know you and you don't know me. but I don't believe what you are stating is right. And obviously most of the other board members don't either. JMHO Steve
Almost everyone said what you were stating was unethical. But you ignore that in our discussion.
Let me respond to that as well. This thread is NOT a poll. It is a discussion that is supposed to lead to a greater understanding of various ethical issues relevant to our hobby/business. If people disagree with each other, all the better. Someone might actually learn something. With any luck, it will be me.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Andy, I think anytime an auction service bids on items in it's own auction it creates a conflict of interest otherwise their will alway's be dought by bidders whether the auction is run openly and honestly. mike
I think anytime an auction service bids on items in it's own auction it creates a conflict of interest otherwise their will alway's be dought by bidders whether the auction is run openly and honestly.
Mike - Just because some bidders distrust an auctioneer doesn't mean that the auctioneer is doing anything wrong. If you KNEW that a mail bid auctioneer was running an auction in the (six points) manner I outlined, would you feel it was unethical?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Andy, six points or a hundred points what's the difference? If the auction service is on the up and up their is no reason to be bidding on their own auctions period! If they want to bid on coins in an auction their are hundreds of other auctions to choose from. For me though if I am at an auction and an auction employee starts bidding I will leave and never go back. mike
how soon after the 'close' until auction is finalized?
Dave - Internet auctions seem to have strict bid deadlines. Doesn't mean the auctioneers aren't bidding. I'm sure that in most cases they are. I don't have a problem with that.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Mr. Eureka. You are right. This is a discussion. But I don't see how you think you have the right to buy an item at a cheap price just because you are the fox guarding the chicken coop. [probably a bad analogy]. What about the guy who made the high bid in good faith? There is a big difference between a mail bid sale and a live auction. At a live auction, you know what is happening minute by minute. I go to a little auction in Appleton, and once in a while the auctioneer will say that they are going to bid on some items. I [or other people] have the right to bid against him and the highest bid wins. I think that is fair. [some people don't]. I notice that almost all of the members who disagreed with you have not re-entered this discussion. But, I'm sure they are on the sidelines [unless they got bored and went to bed]. I just don't understand why a big-time dealer doesn't understand why some of us think he is wrong? But my earlier statements stand.. JMHO. steve
Andy, that's like asking what's wrong with shill bidding someone on ebay? Try doing this and debating it with ebay or the ebay bidder about why it's ethical . mike
that's like asking what's wrong with shill bidding someone on ebay?
Mike - Come on, you can do better than that! Shill bidding is intended to influence bidders that don't know what they are doing. (Someone else is bidding so it has to be a good deal, right?) What does that have to do with auctioneers bidding on their own sales for the purpose of really buying the coins?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Comments
For the Auctioneer to bid higher AFTER THE CLOSE is patently unacceptable and, in my opinion, fraudulent. Attempting to justify this behavior with the excuse that the consigner made a little more is essentially a LAME excuse in my opinion.
What about the"legitimate" high bidder not being afforded the oppertunity to raise his/her bid in this scenario?
And, would this be a good business practice considering the effect it could possibly have on future auctions conducted by this same auctioneer? By this I mean the potential disservice to future consigners when potential bidders avoid future auctions precisely because of their perception of the auctioneers unethical behavior, thereby resulting in lower bids in future auctions because of a smaller bidder pool?
And, isn't this similar to the complaints continuously posted here concerning Ebay auctions being ended early either because of a seller being offered an Email bid or not satisfied with the bid amount minutes before the close of the auction?
Jim
Dog - How about one minute before the auction closes and after 99.9% of the mail bids have been received? In reality, isn't that the same thing? If so, how about an hour before the close? A day? Where do you draw the line?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The coin market is more efficient than this example for MOST coins. A coin that is worth an EASY $5000 does not hammer for $1600, unless the auctioneer did a very poor job of marketing the mail bid sale.
The exception to this could be a thinly traded, obscure segment of the coin market, where the only players were not interested at the time of the auction, and the seller wanted to dump his holdings at any price. In this case, too bad for the seller, the demons of regret will haunt him for years to come!
Seriously, are you kidding? How about the instant the second hand crosses the deadline?
And, by making an offer (we aren't really expected to consider this a "bid" are we?) after seeing all other bid amounts, wouldn't your actions be based on insider information?
Jim
Two questions, two answers:
1. Yes, assume that the mail bids will be reduced to one increment above the next highest bidder. I don't want to muddy the waters by introducing other issues.
2. If submitted anytime after mail bids have arrived, the auctioneer's bid could be based on "private information", i.e., other bidders' bids. That doesn't necessarily make it unethical. It depends on whether bidders have been led to believe that the auctioneer will not behave in this manner. That is rarely if ever the case.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Even in that case, there is still a conflict of interest in that the auctioneer might want the coin to sell for a lower price. That could lead to a poor catalog description, the decision not to photo the lot, a refusal to accept a bid from an unknown bidder, etc, etc.
Sigh. I'm so, so confused.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
2. If submitted anytime after mail bids have arrived, the auctioneer's bid could be based on "private information", i.e., other bidders' bids. That doesn't necessarily make it unethical. It depends on whether bidders have been led to believe that the auctioneer will not behave in this manner. That is rarely if ever the case.>>>
1. Okay, for the sake of justifying your unethical behavior, we will all "assume" whatever it takes to see it your way.
2. And, again, for the sake of justifying your unethical behavior, we will "assume" that actual bidders do not have the RIGHT to EXPECT that the auctioneer will not make an offer AFTER the close of the auction and AFTER the auctioneer has the knowledge of everyone elses top bids. SHHHEEEEESSSsssshhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
In the end, the only ethical thing for you to do is send the coin to the true high bidder at his/her bid and bear your loss as a lesson not to pull this SH*T again.
Jim
By the way, what is the title of your mail bid auctions?
I'm not telling you. If I did, you might bid on my consignors' coins and force me to pay more for them.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Man that's really hard for me to answer because I don't even have a clue as to what is legal & what's not never mind the ethics of being an "auctioneer" in that situation.
I'm being honest here, if you (or anybody else) were the one running the mail bid auction I'd expect you to send me the coin @ $1200. If I were running the mail bid myself then nobody would ever know who really won and I could make my own rules as I went and it would be hard to pass on a good deal I could cherry for myself, especially if it was a coin I really needed & wanted. Nobody would ever know who the actual high bidder was, all the individual bidders would know is that somebody won the coin & it wasn't him.
But the kicker here is that you said I was the type of person that wanted to treat my buyers right and there was no mention of a reserve so I said wow this bidder got a steal @ $1200 & mail it to him. Truth be known that's probably what I'd do in real life too without even thinking about it.
I face similiar situations everyday everyday being in the construction biz because I know what subs bid what amount and what the homeowners are wiling to pay. My biz is even more cutthroat than coin dealing and a contractor will shank more people for more $$ than a coin dealer can ever even think about.
Like the contractor that takes 3 bids from subs on a job; $20,000, $30,000 & $40,000. The $20,000 low bidder sub is sposed to get the job & save the homeowner $20K, right? NO! The contractor charges the homeowner $40K but lets the $20k sub do it & puts an extra $20K in his own pocket. He also knows the $20k guy can't do it for that price and the job never gets completed and the sub ends up drawing only about $15K maybe so the contractor tells the homeowner it's going to cost him $25 per hour per man to get a crew to finish what the other guy started. So the contractor gets his own flunkies to finish @ $10 per hour per man and puts yet another $2,000 in his pocket. So the contractor puts $27,000 extra in his own pocket but whines & crys about how he isn't making any $$ and the homeowner, like coin collectors end very happy and unknowing that they just got a screwing from L.
<< <i>To come in after the fact is not fair to the bidders in your sale.
Dave - Why? >>
Because you are privy to all of the max bids, an unfair advantage that the bidders in the mail bid sale do not enjoy.
09/07/2006
Joe.
Conder - I'm not sure I get it. I understand that the auctioneer has an advantage, but why is that unfair?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
09/07/2006
<< <i>Conder - I'm not sure I get it. I understand that the auctioneer has an advantage, but why is that unfair? >>
I'm not sure I get it. All bidders have the same information and have to "shoot in the dark" trying to win except for one who gets to see exactly what it takes to win. How can it not be unfair?
Reminds me of the bidding for the ANA Convention sale one year. All the other auction houses had to submit sealed bids to run the sale, then they opened the bids, told the last auction house exactly how much each of the others had bid. Then the last house bid just slightly more and was awarded the honor of being the official Convention auctioneer.
If bids are reduced like they should be, then everyone's on equal grounds EXCEPT that the auctioneer knows who is bidding. So to be fair about it, if I was an auctioneer bidding in my own sale, I would not allow myself to see the identities of the other bidders.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Sure, I'll answer. I can handle the flames!
1. I wouldn't hesitate to bid in my own sale.
2. I'd wait until the last minute to post my bids to save the hassle of calculating bids on lots that are already bringing "enough".
3. I would not bid after the bid deadline. It's not an ethical issue. I just would not want to torture my mail bidders with a long wait for results.
4. I would NOT look at the identities of the other bidders. Yes, really.
5. In my original scenario, I'd probably pay something like $3800, even though I could justify paying as little as $1600. That's just my sense of fairness based on my duty to the seller, which of course may impress you as being either stupidly generous or (for a 5K coin) borderline criminal, depending on your perspective. Everyone is different.
6. Other than my own bids, I would religiously reduce bids to one increment over the underbidder.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>6. Other than my own bids, I would religiously reduce bids to one increment over the underbidder. >>
That might be the kicker with regard to mail-in auctions. I've heard horror stories where this doesn't occur and you, as high bidder, pay the full amount you've bid. As far as a paper trail, it would just say you won everything at hammer or, if they wanted to avoid suspicion, they would lower your high bid by a set amount but certainly not down to the next increment above the next highest bid. I believe this happens more often than not too.
karlgoetzmedals.com
secessionistmedals.com
I'll agree that we are different because the above IMO is absolutely, positively WRONG!!!
Joe.
UncleJoe - If you were in that situation, how much would you pay? Why?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
karlgoetzmedals.com
secessionistmedals.com
I don't believe that knowing that this was happening in someones mail bid sale would stop me from bidding. I would still bid on the items that I wanted at the price I was willing to pay for the item. If my bid was not enough, so be it.
A lot like eBay - you cannot always be sure that the high bidder is a real bidder.
If you want to spend your money you need to determine your tolerance for the unknown, then participate only in those situations that meet your safe zone.
Collecting:
Conder tokens
19th & 20th Century coins from Great Britain and the Realm
66 - I already answered that question. I'll repeat it for you:
I'm not telling you. If I did, you might bid on my consignors' coins and force me to pay more for them.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
You mean, like, "Let's step outside"?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
That's why I'm here!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
You wouldn't bid until the last minute to save YOURSELF the work of counting bids. Doesn't matter if the high bidder was willing to pay more.
No. I said it would save me the trouble of CALCULATING my own bids. The reason that's important is that I might have thousands of coins consigned to my auction and not enough time to figure MY bids for all of them. If I wait until the end, I can carefully figure the few lots where my bids might help the consignor get more money for his coins. I might even get to make a few extra bucks for my effort. Maybe that's still unethical in your book, but at least accuse me of the proper crime.
You wouldn't look at the names of other bidders. That has nothing to do with anything...
Actually, it's critical. I think it would be unethical for an auctioneer to "go to school" on a mail bidder's bid. However, that will only happen if the auctioneer knows the identity of the mail bidder and he respects the mail bidder. NOBODY with half a brain is going to pay more for a coin just because some UNKNOWN bidder placed a high bid.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The hypothetical case is that I own the auction company >>
That's the way I understood it at first but I was starting to wonder after I read everything again. I don't think any auction services should be allowed to bid on their own auctions- it's a conflict of interest( but I guess you knew this or you would have never asked the question). mike
I can see how someone could have misunderstood that. My apologies. So, now that we're on the same page, does that change anything for you?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Let me respond to that as well. This thread is NOT a poll. It is a discussion that is supposed to lead to a greater understanding of various ethical issues relevant to our hobby/business. If people disagree with each other, all the better. Someone might actually learn something. With any luck, it will be me.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Mike - It's a POTENTIAL conflict of interest. I'm making the case that (if the sale is handled properly) those conflicts can be avoided.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Mike - Just because some bidders distrust an auctioneer doesn't mean that the auctioneer is doing anything wrong. If you KNEW that a mail bid auctioneer was running an auction in the (six points) manner I outlined, would you feel it was unethical?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I know of a couple major internet auctions that have about 3 or 4 evenings of the week covered
how soon after the 'close' until auction is finalized?
I often wonder how much 'cherry picking' is going on by these 2 auction houses
Mike - Why???
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Dave - Internet auctions seem to have strict bid deadlines. Doesn't mean the auctioneers aren't bidding. I'm sure that in most cases they are. I don't have a problem with that.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
66 - It's because some of you haven't explained WHY you think I'm wrong. You just keep on saying that I'm wrong.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Mike - Come on, you can do better than that! Shill bidding is intended to influence bidders that don't know what they are doing. (Someone else is bidding so it has to be a good deal, right?) What does that have to do with auctioneers bidding on their own sales for the purpose of really buying the coins?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> It's because some of you haven't explained WHY you think I'm wrong. You just keep on saying that I'm wrong. >>
The bottom line is you are CHEATING the high bidder out of what he rightfully won in open bidding.