Better picture of double motto..

BIGDAVE

or just wasting time , i got this 1878 cc the t and r are clearly doubled in trust , i can not find it in my book or on the vam site anybody have any clues?it is in a old pcgs green holder ms63

FC57Coins

Looks like that's the result of a worn die

BIGDAVE

There is a t under the t and r worn dies?

Dog97

Sorry BigDave but you won't find it in any book or sites because it's common machine doubling. The mottos are already on the hubs & hubbed onto the dies unlike the dates which were individually punched into each die so if it were a true dd all of them would be like that.
For the record there are only about 2 or 3 known doubled dies in all the Morg series. Since these doubled hubs were used year after year, for example the III2 obv from 1879-1904 and the C4 rev used from 1900-1904 they unfortunately don't have a prem because of it.

Trooper

Dog
One of the DDO's of the Morgan series is the 1888 o "hot lips" variety. I'm searching for one of those...

Tom

kranky

Could it be a die clash?

Dog97

Yeah the hotlips shows strong doubling. Kinda strange yet neat looking.
I should also point out that when I said only 2 or 3 dds are known I was refering to doubling on the hubs. There are about a million Morg varities from where the working die was doubled from hubbing.
No Kranky, not a clash or you would see it in the fields, usually around the eagle's wings and Liberty's neck. There are some with clash marks in IGWT, which is Liberty's neckline running through "IN" in IGWT.

BIGDAVE

Dog

so is the 1887-o triple date i have, machine doubling or a real double date ?you can see where trust was and it was stamped over , the same as the 1887-o ,you can see the 1 and the 7, i am so confused

David

Dog97

BigDave I'm pretty sure the 87-O you just posted is VAM 2, which is a good one. # 57 in the Top 100. It has one of the most shifted dates known.

BIGDAVE

Dog

Yes it is a vam 2 but it is in a pcgs holder ms63 the vam website has only sold 2 in 10 years both au ,

i found the 1892-cc has a vam 3 triple motto it is not machine doubling , why can the 92-cc have the motto doubled but the 78-cc is machine doubling help me ?

David

BIGDAVE

ttt

Dog97

The 1892-CC VAM 3 is known for a doubled date, not trippled motto. Maybe you have a 92-CC VAM 3 with machine doubling.
As far as telling the difference between MD and real DD it's hard sometimes but the extra image IGWT on the 78 CC is low flat & shelflike which is consistant with MD but lots of the doubling in the vam book looks MD to me because I'm not a VAM expert. Trying to attribute VAM drives me crazy & I try to avoid it but I know a little bout it cause I'm a Morg collector.
It's all confusing because Flynn refutes the VAM book and VanAllen refutes Flynn & the guys that wrote the book don't always agree on the difference between die chipping & slight doubling and the vam book is 20 years old with 1,000 new vams added since then and they are constantly being added, dropped, changed & updated & I don't follow all that closely.

davewang202

I have a 1879s VAM 25 that I just received yesterday with some nice mechanical doubling on the motto. Mechanical doubling is quite common on the motto of the flat breast reverse. Perhaps it's just the way the coin bounces, but nearly every 79s Rev 78 Morgan has some sort of mechanical doubling on the lower part of "o" in "God".

I also have a 1879s VAM 51 that shows signsl of a die clash on the "st" in "trust". As a matter of fact, this is what we're searching for, a nice VAM 50 with die clash.

I'll take some pictures and post them tonight.

David

BIGDAVE

that is what mine looks like

BIGDAVE

davewang202

this picture is yours of the 79-s rev 78

this is exactly what mine looks like

David

Dog97

Here's one that had me trippin 1 time, an 03-O. I sent it to Leroy Van Allen and he told me it was just MD with some die chipping thrown in. As you can see it doesn't look like most MD.
I was sure I had found a new one.

BIGDAVE

it is only md when we find them it is a double die when they get there hands on it ..

davewang202

I'm taking pictures for you now. Will make a quasi-article out of it when I'm done.

David

WWW

I noticed this tripling on my 78-CC and got all excited until I realized that
it's just machine doubling. Curses! But hey, they are still cool looking.

davewang202

Okay, here we go.



The above is a composite of a bunch of r's from "trust".

Number 1 through 5 are from various 1878 s-mint Morgans.
Number 6 is from an 1880 cc-mint VAM 4 Morgan.
Number 7 is from an 1879-s (rev 78) VAM 46.

Basically, the way Morgans (and many other coins) are made is that an image of the coin is transferred from the original design to a master hub.
From the master hub, you make a master die. From a master die, you make a bunch of working hubs. From a working hub, you make a bunch of working dies. The working dies is what you use to mint the actual coins with. The process of die creation is described in the VAM encyclopedia. Very interesting stuff.

Most of the time, when we're looking for VAM varieties, the varieties are unique to each die, and we look for doubling on the die or cracks or die chips or gouges or rusting (makes pitting on coins) or whatever. But sometimes, problems from a hub can be transferred to one or more dies, so you get multiple dies that all share the same features.

The "partially broken r" or more precisely the "partially broken serif in r" is one such feature. There was likely a broken hub that ended up transferring the same problem to multiple working dies, and multiple working dies all show similarly broken r's. Number 1 shows what a normal r should look like. Number 2 shows a broken serif. There are at least 3 or 4 dies in both the philly mint as well as the San Francisco mint that all show a similarly broken r. They're clearly different dies, but the r all look kind of broken. What's really funny (funny to me anyways) is that some dies show signs of the mint workers individually engraving the die, trying to re-make the broken serif. So you get funny looking things like 3 and 4.

Number 5 is a bit hard to guess at. I think the "stuff" under and around the letters is what you are looking at thinking that it's "doubling", but Mr Van Allen just called them die chips. Honestly, I'm not sure what went on there. It could be that they tried to re-work the die to fix the broken r in the motto. The die chip (or re-work, or whatever you wish to call it) is very prominent on one of the most interesting VAM's, the 1880-cc VAM 4, with the 80/79 overdate, and the entire motto of IGWT on the reverse looks like the "tru" part that I show in number 6.

Finally, I am just showing number 7 for completeness. There are several VAM's with the completely broken r, and they're called "TIUST" varieties. The 1879s Rev 78 VAM 46 is one of them. This one actually shows a thin line, but on some of them, there isn't even a hint of a thin line.

So what you have is probably just one of the VAM's with the die chips around the IGWT motto, and that could be the result of some "rework" for the motto.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I just received this coin. It's an 1879s (rev 78) VAM 25. It has pretty good mechanical doubling. I know it's not really "worth more", but it's interesting to me, and if I had known it was there, I'd have paid a few bucks more for it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Finally, this is "trust" from an 1879s (rev 78) VAM 51. This picture shows a line between "s" and "t" in "trust". According to Dr Mark Kimpton, MD., a noted die clash specialist, the line is the result of a die clash, and all VAM 51's examined thus far has the die clash. VAM 50 precedes VAM 51 in the die (use) sequence chart, and we've found some VAM 50's with and some VAM 50's without the die clash mark. They've bee low grade coins though. We're looking for a nice VAM 50 with the die clash to study what the die clash did to the obverse die. (yes, we're hardcore)

Hope that helps.

David