Top Shows for Raw Vintage BESIDES The National

scottsusor

This is primarily for those of you who have been around the country (or even just your regional area) to several shows in the past couple of years. Besides "The National" which shows have the most raw vintage dealers. And by vintage dealers, I mean dealers that already have their raw stuff that's NM, NM-MT, and MINT self-graded and marked. I heard somebody mention a Hollywood Park show. Do they still have the Midwest Sports Collectors Show in Detroit? What are the "can't miss" shows for the qualtity of raw vintage?

Scott

mcastaldi

Chicago has three major shows each year which attract national dealers. The Sun-Times shows are in March and November. SportsFest is in the middle of the summer.

Mike

norty

Fort Washington PA (ie Philly) March ( 5, 6 and 7 this year) and September and the 3 Chicago shows Mike mentioned.

Griffins

I wouldn't consider Hollywood Park good for raw vintage- SF Labor Day show is much better in my opinion, but neither comes close to ebay on any given week.
I think it is getting near impossible to find any decent raw vintage (pre WW2) anymore. Shoebox is good, as is Mastro, but neither is a bargain.

interchanges

Actually, those Gibralter shows in Detroit aren't too bad. You can find something here or there.
If you don't mind going to that freak carnival building. (It's a huge card show inside a building that has everything going on) (all kinds of discounted merchandise, coney island stands, tattoo parlors, Harley merchandise, people walking around smoking that look like they just walked out of Foghat concert circa 1974)

Anyway alot of people do those shows that aren't normal card dealers. Local collector and his buddy spring for a table and sell stuff. I ran into that and bought a nice lot of 53 Bowman Colors (raw/ex/mt) nicely centered cards for cheap. You never know what you will run into there.

(maybe the Slaters gypsies should sell there)

Boopotts

I don't think you're going to find much nmt-mt or better raw stuff anywhere. Sure, you can pick up some '60's commons here and there, but the word is basically out that a mint '57 Mantle will fetch about 1000% more in a PSA slab then it will in a screw down. The days of going to a show, picking through the showcases, and flipping the cards eight weeks later for a 2000$ profit are, I'm afraid, behind us.

mcastaldi

boopotts> Depends on what you're looking for and who you know. I seldom have any problem finding anything I look for at the shows I choose to attend.

Mike

scottsusor

<< <i>... but the word is basically out that a mint '57 Mantle will fetch about 1000% more in a PSA slab then it will in a screw down. >>


I'm not sure that's as much of a given as you suggest. Those that are in the graded card world surely know it. But a large part of the dealer/collector community -- maybe even the majority -- wants nothing to do with the graded card world. And on top of that, it takes capital to get cards graded for the purpose of reselling. A lot of collectors will spend the money to get their own collections graded, if that's what they want to do. But how many raw vintage dealers will have the funds to continually send in submissions? There are a few but not that many when compared to those who can only afford to sell raw or mostly raw. Remember, the economy is not so great right now, and it may be wiser to pay the mortgage and eat than to pay grading fees for a lot of folks.

Scott

mcastaldi

In addition to Scott's point. . .it does take capital to have cards graded. Especially for the years I collect (1970s and early 80s), the graded card market is a LOT more volitile than high-grade raw. So I know a few dealers who do some graded stuff but most of their stuff is still raw and very nice. Why? Because if they can get 75-90% of PSA8 price for a raw card, then the upside for grading it out is a lot smaller. It also insulates them from the often radical price fluctuations of graded cards. Do they miss out on a chance to make the extra money if the card were to come back a 9? Sure. But at the same time, they're not stuck taking $5 for the card in a PSA8 holder when it SMRs for $15.

And honestly, most of the 57 Mantles (and other cards like it) that I've seein in screw-downs usually tend to be somewhere between VG/EX and EX/MT. In this condition, there's substantially less upside in submitting a card.

Mike

ZodiacMindwarp

Keep in mind that once a dealer starts to sell graded cards, he/she would have a more difficult time moving raw items. There have been threads on this message board asking if raw purchases should be made from dealers who sell graded and, for the most part, the responses have been "no". It would appear that it's an "all or nothing" case.

Skycap

Scott wants to know where he can find vintage "dealers that already have their raw stuff that's NM, NM-MT, and MINT self-graded and marked" and asked "What are the "can't miss" shows for the quality of raw vintage?"

I don't think there is such a thing as a "can't miss" show. Personally, I think Ebay is a much more time- and cost-effective way to obtain the raw vintage cards you're looking for. At a card show, you're searching for needles in haystacks. With Ebay, it takes milliseconds to find those needles! Sure, some will overgrade on Ebay, but they overgrade at shows too. And remember on Ebay you have the right to return the cards for a refund unless the sellers states otherwise. Why wait for an occasional show when you can use Ebay 24 hours a day, every day of the year? I only go to one or two shows a year, but they're huge shows (like the National), and I don't buy raw cards anyway.

On Ebay you're not just limited to "professional" show dealers but, rather, have all sorts of people -- big-time and small-time -- available to you. After awhile, certain Ebay sellers will earn a reputation for fairly grading cards while others will not.

What raw cards in particular are you looking for? Do you also collect PSA cards?

Skycap

BigKidAtHeart

the best show for vintage is
the antique road show....


no really!
link 1


Link 2

scottsusor

<< <i>What raw cards in particular are you looking for? Do you also collect PSA cards? >>


I don't collect graded cards, at least not at this point. I collect raw cards, and enjoy completing my own sets in high grade condition. I have a variety of interests beyond the standard Topps and Bowman vintage but right now I'm doing 1948-1953. What I'm looking for is stuff I can get graded and resell, using the profits to further my own raw collecting interests -- in particular low pop commons. Its a tough row to hoe, and very time consuming, but I admit I enjoy it almost as much as working on my own collection. Thanks for asking.

I probably took my own thread off course a bit. I hate it when that happens.

Scott

norty

Scott:

All I can tell you is that you are not alone in what you are looking for at shows.

Boopotts

Norty

You speak true. I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but it's exceedingly hard to wander into a card show these days and purchase high grade raw cards for Beckett prices. Yeah, if you look hard enough you can find the occasional cache of 60's commons, but that's about it. You won't find any star cards pre-1980, and you won't find anything nmt-mt+ that was printed pre- 1960.

Also, scott, your point is well taken re: the majority of the collecting world's opinion on grading. But, that doesn't mean that raw card collectors are hording mint examples of '50's stars. You can talk to any dealer at a show-- and I mean any-- and virtually all of them will tell you they either a) get their best stuff graded, or b) have a guy who gets it graded for them. The fact that they don't have graded cards in their displays doesn't mean they aren't aware of the obscene premiums that graded cards can command.

scottsusor

<< <i>But, that doesn't mean that raw card collectors are hording mint examples of '50's stars. >>


Just to clarify, I don't think collectors are "hording" these cards at all. What I said, or meant to say, was that many collectors are simply no longer active in collecting and have done nothing with their collections. In other words, those cards are just sitting there in cases, boxes, albums, drawers, or wherever. And I'd bet if you asked 100 of these collectors if they wanted to sell 'em, 99 would say no -- not because they wouldn't like the cash, but because they love hanging on to them. We have the 1980's to thank for this.

Scott

Buccaneer

<< <i>

<< <i>But, that doesn't mean that raw card collectors are hording mint examples of '50's stars. >>


Just to clarify, I don't think collectors are "hording" these cards at all. What I said, or meant to say, was that many collectors are simply no longer active in collecting and have done nothing with their collections. In other words, those cards are just sitting there in cases, boxes, albums, drawers, or wherever. And I'd bet if you asked 100 of these collectors if they wanted to sell 'em, 99 would say no -- not because they wouldn't like the cash, but because they love hanging on to them. We have the 1980's to thank for this.

Scott >>



In my case, that is exactly right. My whole collection sat untouched in a large, dark, dry closet from 1988 to 2003. Just now sent my Club submission to PSA.

Boopotts

Scott, I'm not arguing about that-- and I probably chose my words poorly when I said 'hording'. The only point I'm trying to make here is that, so far as I know, you're not going to find much in the way of high-end raw vintage at any card show. Yeah, I wish I could go up Gibraltar twice a month and load up on nmt+ '58 commons, but it's not going to happen. The word is out on grading, at least so far as it concerns dealers. There may be plenty of stunning private collections out there that haven't yet 'me the slab', but that's just not the case with dealers. They know, more or less, what they have, and they get the best stuff graded.

A lot of dealers just use card shows as a way of unloading their vg-ex intentory, since there are still many collectors out there who haven't bought in to PSA's stringent grading standards, and are happy to pay full beckett for a ex-mt '62 McCovey, or whatever. But the real nice stuff invariably ends up getting slabbed, and subsequently sold in either a private deal or on ebay. Ever wonder who all these guys are on ebay with 200-500 feedback ratings, that occasionally put up something like a '66 Rose PSA 9 for sale? Well, most of 'em are dealers-- guys who may not deal exclusively in slabbed cards, but know what to do with mint vintage stuff when they buy a collection.

I only bring this up because you seem interested in supplementing your collecting budget by buying PSA 8 or better quality vintage in raw form, then getting it graded. And IMExperience, which is fairly extensive, you're going to have a lot of trouble doing this. Best of luck to you, but you'll have trouble finding dealers who have PSA 8+ quality stuff sitting in screwdowns in their display cases. And, as norty alluded, there are usually at least half a dozen guys at any show who are doing the same thing you're doing, which means anything that might end up in a display case isn't going to sit there for much longer than half an hour. Can you find the occasional gem? Absolutely. I picked up a '69 deckle Pete Rose for 10 bucks a while ago, got it graded, and sold it for $205 on ebay, and I've had success finding late '60s and early '70's hockey commons at shows that graded out pretty high as well. But you have to know what to look for, and you have to be willing to take a flyer occasionally on some pretty odd-ball stuff, since there are plenty of dealers who won't get the more obscure issues graded since they don't know there's money to made there. For instance, I hit a deal a while ago where I picked up a bunch of mint '72 NFLPA football vinyl stickers, and I managed to do pretty well on those after getting 'em graded. But you're not going find much, if anything, in the way of mainstream issues in the major sports, especially if you're looking for vintage. Just my experience. If you're milage varies, more power to you.

norty

<< <i>And, as norty alluded, there are usually at least half a dozen guys at any show who are doing the same thing you're doing, which means anything that might end up in a display case isn't going to sit there for much longer than half an hour. >>



More like 30 to 40, though they may all be looking for different years, sports etc. and they start at set up, not when the show starts.

Basilone

<< <i>they start at set up, not when the show starts. >>



So true......

purelyPSA

I think the genie's pretty much out of the bottle on NM/MT commons, at shows. For something to trickle down to the common folk - and NOT priced already at what a NM/MT 8 sells for - is probably not going to happen, because as Norty alluded to, if there are dealers out there that do indeed have such an inventory, it's cannibalized by other dealers before it hits the floor.

thecommoncard

A small recent tid bit from me. Granted its not vintage, but this weekend at a mall show, I ran into a rather large wax dealer from Gibraltar shows. He does psa on modern stuff, and buys lots of collections. He had a vending run from 78-85. Sets were all done really well, and then had 3200 commons of each left. I took the 78s and probably getting a call to him in next day or two, to get the 79s and 80s. Again its modern stuff, but a 3200 ct of 78s from vending sitting on a table with a $100 price tag on it, is hard to pass up. So some times, right place at right time can and does happen.


Jeff

scottsusor

Show me a dealer at a major show who spends his time sifting through common cards of other dealers and I'll show you a guy who will soon be out of business and broke. And this applies as much during setup as it does during the show. This is a niche market to say the least. Speaking from experience here, yeh, there's lots of wheeling and dealing that goes on starting early on load-in day, but do you realize the amount of background research and price charting this type of thing takes? And then, on top of that, add in the time required to sift through stacks and stacks of commons? Most dealers have to maximize their time use at these shows. I know I did when I was a show dealer. And though I was always looking to buy things to make a profit on, like all savvy dealers do, my plan was to spend time MAKING money at the show, not spend time SPENDING money. With the economy the way it is, and with the popularity of the hobby in a funk right now, I doubt that anything is different now.

Scott

ctsoxfan

Okay, so the question becomes this:

Where do the big PSA submitters get all of there cards from now, if not from shows? When you see dsl or the like putting up a large amount of 1975 Football (for example), where did the raw cards come from? Do they just buy vending cases (and from whom?). Do they buy collections (doubtful, and the amount available must be shrinking all the time). I do agree that shows are becoming a dumping ground for VG-EX material, and under the dim lights at most shows, sometimes those cards might pass for EX-MT or even NM.

purelyPSA

Scott - JMHO but that sounds penny wise and pound foolish. When a NM/MT common can command hundreds of dollars, finding such a card in another dealer's stock would MAKE a show for someone. Which is why today's dealers are pretty hip to what cards are low pops. It goes with the territory.

norty

Scott:

I can tell you from experience that there are still NM/MT commons at shows. (I go through my commons looking for gradeable cards but I do not take much risk with my submissions and I know I leave things behind in my books. I also don't grade anything from 68 up except 71's). I can also tell you that many major dealers comb books, show cases etc for them (and of course stars too), generally starting right at set up. Guys you've heard of, guys you've probably bought from. Guys that clearly aren't going broke. They aren't necessarily looking for low pop cards, just stuff that will grade 8 or better in the 60's, 7 or better in the 50's or anything they can re-sell for a profit.

In addition to just commons, many guys are walking the floor before the show opens looking for sets for sale. Many a nice common comes from those sets which never see the light of day of the show.

Basilone

If you are looking for Modern cards (1972 and higher)....go for it.

If you are looking for PSA 8 quality cards from the 50's to mid 60's....dont waste your time....go have a beer with another collector. You'll have more fun.

Basilone

<< <i>Again its modern stuff, but a 3200 ct of 78s from vending sitting on a table with a $100 price tag on it, is hard to pass up. >>




Nice profit....not sure if King Kellogg wanted to see that.

John

mcastaldi

Scott> "like all savvy dealers do, my plan was to spend time MAKING money at the show, not spend time SPENDING money. With the economy the way it is, and with the popularity of the hobby in a funk right now, I doubt that anything is different now."

I disagree with you on this to a large extent. My favorite dealer happens to live close to me (Chicagoland), but is a fairly well-known "national" dealer who focuses on PSA-graded cards and unopened product. To my knowledge, he sets up at only two or three major shows a year. He goes to most of the major shows, however. . .and even when he sets up, he's not really there to sell. He's there to buy.

Your're approaching things as if most of your money is made on the sale. I would argue that a savvy dealer really makes most of his money when he buys. The same dealer related a story to me that I'll always remember. He talked about a dealer he knew and when he asked how a show went for him, his friend said he bought too much. My friend didn't understand how this could be possible. If you buy it for X dollars and sell it for Y dollars - and assuming Y is greater than X - how could you spend too much? He could have bought the wrong stuff or paid too much for what he got, but those are different problems from buying too much. You can't sell it unless you buy it - and all the dealers I know have a strong tendency to sell for more than they paid. They're funny like that.

Norty alluded to something many people do - dealers and collectors. They'll buy a "NM+" set, pull out anything that's really NM/MT or better and replace them with examples that are actually NM+, and turn around and sell the set (it's still a "NM+" set) for what they paid or more. Then you know what, they have those NM/MT or better cards pretty much free and clear. Yes, it does take time to look through a set like this and you do have to be particular about which sets deserve your time and money.

Also. . ."Show me a dealer at a major show who spends his time sifting through common cards of other dealers and I'll show you a guy who will soon be out of business and broke." -- If you get a chance, you should get to the Chicago shows. . .or Ft Washington. . .or Hollywood Park. I know at the Chicago shows, there are at least four or five dealers who make their living selling high-end raw vintage (75 and before) almost exclusively. Maybe it's just me, but these always seem to be the most consistently-busy tables.

Mike

sellerman23

thecommoncard,

You said that you were going to call him about 79's and 80's. If you were not interested in the later years, could you let me know? I would be very interested in conacting this dealer about his 1983 cards.

Thanks in advance,

David
sellerman23

misterebay@yahoo.com

Ripken

I don't think it's hopeless. I spent 2 hours each for 2 days of a recent medium sized show at a vintage dealer's table (small timer). I was looking for gradeable raw cards from the '60s and early 70s and found quite a number of them. I've pretty much given up on '50s because I do think that's nearly hopeless and it's just not worth the time to find the 1 or 2 cards that might work. It's also more expensive when poor lighting makes you miss something. I'm also pretty conservative with what I buy. I'll be stunned if more than 5% of what I bought is 7 or less.

During those four hours, several others paged through the dealer's books. All had checklists and appeared to simply be filling sets...some wanted NM/MT and were almost as particular as I was but if they didn't NEED a card, they didn't buy it. While I believe dealers swooped in and bought some great 50s complete sets early from this dealer, the books of commons were not picked over when I got there later in the morning. I overheard lots of talk at the show about "I think this might grade 7" or "it came back an 8"....but it was in regard to star cards people were looking at in a showcases or had bought at other shows. I also saw one dealer, near the main entrance..busy all weekend. He had a lot of 3200 ct boxes with pre-76 stuff. I didn't go through everything as most appeared EX, but it took me about 15 seconds to find a gorgeous '68 common that had probably been sitting there for six months judging by the holder. Same story next door to him, but this time I bought a sweet '71 Tony Perez...probably an 8. $18 price tag. I asked if that was the actual price. He said "nah, stuff in that box is 75 percent off".

NickM

Low pop vintage commons that should get a PSA 8 will disappear quickly from a dealer's table, but what about the high pop cards? If you know that there are well over 100 PSA 8 examples of some 1968 common cards, and that they sometimes sell for less than grading costs on eBay, why would you as a dealer take the time to review any but the known low pop cards and major stars for submissions to PSA? Also do not forget that what a dealer can bring to a show is limited by his available space and by how much he is willing to spend on shipping.
Because of costs, time, and limitations on the market, it can be perfectly reasonable for a dealer with a large inventory to skip grading cards that would be expected to sell for $10 to $15 more graded than raw.

Nick

Fuzz

Nick,
If I got your point right.
The dealer who owns the high pop card won't grade it because it may not make a profit.
The dealer that visited the table didn't want it because he can't make a profit.
Why again, do I want it?
Wouldn't I be ahead to wait for the less than grading fees card to come up on eBay? And that doesn't even count the time I would have to spend to find it.
Fuzz

NickM

Fuzz - it probably wouldn't be a good use of funds to buy that card and get it graded (unless you thought it had a strong chance at a 9), but it would still be high-grade raw vintage, which is what scott was asking about. He can always keep such a card as a NM-MT raw card.
Plus, there are also a large number of vintage PSA 8 commons that will sell for the raw card price plus grading/shipping fees plus a small profit on eBay but are still not worth the dealer's time and trouble to get graded. This especially applies if most of the dealer's stock is slightly less than PSA 8 quality, such that he would have to spend a significant amount of time reviewing cards to separate out the PSA 8s.

Nick