ICG is now the highest rated service? By what metric?

davewang202

According to this ebay auction

"... ICG has now become highest rated service according to the January CDN Newsletter Certified Coin Market Indicator"

It has? I don't have the referenced material at hand. Can someone with the cited material post what exactly was written about ICG? An ICG holdered coin sells for more money now?

SeattleSlammer

probably the same metric that finds ACG to be "the most consistent" service......

MrEureka

See the front page of The Coin Dealer Newsletter. It's right there, every week.

davewang202

Do you believe it? Could it be that ICG was so thinly traded that a few above average trade samples skewed the distribution?

I must preface my comments with the disclosure that I am highly suspect of the claims that ICG is anywhere near the "top of th heap", particularly since I have a coin in an ICG holder with altered surfaces that I paid $1K+ for. It was sent back to ICG for a review, but they sent the coin back to me without comment. Presumably they think it's acceptable to holder the coin.

Obverse of the coin
Reverse of the coin

My personal issue aside, I simply see few ICG coins being traded, and seems to be fewer and fewer as the days go by. All of the sudden to have this comment that ICG is now the highest rated service, that was rather difficult to believe.

newport

I called the CDNewsletter about this. They say the "Dealers" (which ones i don't know,) the dealers are bidding strong for these which make them the current highest rated coins.

mgoodm3

There is a way ICG can have a higher resale than PCGS. Stick with me here. Most serious collectors buy the big three for themost part (PCGS, NGC, ANACS). Who's left to buy ICG?: non-collectors and QVC. They probably pay too much for them and thus pushes up their average prices. I don't know, just a theory.

agentjim007

I called the CDNewsletter about this. They say the "Dealers" (which ones i don't know,) the dealers are bidding strong for these which make them the current highest rated coins.

It's called promotion. It happens all the time. EX. a dealer owns 5 pieces of some coin he can't move. He ups his bid for the coin making it look like the price is going up, plus shows activity. Now he catches others attention with plus signs in the sheet. Now he can sell.

MrEureka

It's called promotion. It happens all the time. EX. a dealer owns 5 pieces of some coin he can't move. He ups his bid for the coin making it look like the price is going up, plus shows activity. Now he catches others attention with plus signs in the sheet. Now he can sell.

And they only do that with ICG coins?

AValde

Why not standardize the grading process instead of rivalry and frivolous chatter. There should only be 1 grading governing body. The World Grading Council. The ANA is pretty much useless as it can't enforce grading.

agentjim007

And they only do that with ICG coins?

of cousre not. This is just one example. Thats what the "it happens all the time" means

MrEureka

Why not standardize the grading process instead of rivalry and frivolous chatter. There should only be 1 grading governing body.

Who is going to make that happen and how will they do it?

agentjim007

Why not standardize the grading process instead of rivalry and frivolous chatter. There should only be 1 grading governing body. The World Grading Council. The ANA is pretty much useless as it can't enforce grading.

Avalde...looks like you got to find a "tongue in cheek" icon

MrEureka

of cousre not. This is just one example.

agentjim - If dealers promote all coins and all grading services, how do you explain that ICG has a higher rating every week?

MrEureka

The ANA is pretty much useless as it can't enforce grading.

Please explain.

agentjim007

Andy,
All the time doesn't mean every coin every day. Somebody is trying to move their ICG.

MrEureka

Somebody is trying to move their ICG.

Nobody's trying to move their PCGS, NGC and ANACS coins?

agentjim007

Nobody's trying to move their PCGS, NGC and ANACS coins?

I feel like I'm dancing (going in circles)

Look up the meaning of promotion...thats my point.

MrEureka

I feel like I'm dancing (going in circles)

More like you're barking up the wrong tree.

agentjim007

Ok Andy so whats your theory.

Anyone with even one toe in the numismatic arena knows ICG is NOT the highest rated grading company. How can the record shows it is if someone is not "making it so"?

davewang202

mgoodm3 has an interesting theory.

That theory *could* be true and someone didn't go out and "make" ICG the highest rated service, but just by virtue of one or two of those TV Coin companies buying ICG coins in bulk @ close to CDN bid, that could push up the "rating". Rather not applicable to an ICG holdered Bust dollar, but "highest rated service" could be created this way.

Baley

"ratings" of anything are pretty subjective, based on the "rater's" criteria.

Look at the "ratings" of universities every year, what is the "best" US college?

as always, it depends.

ICG, IMO, is a good service, better than PCIs, NTC, ACG,

and on par with PCGS, NGC, and ANACS, at least for the coins I collect (pre-1960)

That said, I've heard they are lenient when grading moderns and give out MS70 and 69 when the "big 3" would say 69 or 68 respectively.

For older coins, I would say ICG is on par with the big three. I don't know about this "highest rated" business CDN is talking about, and am not too concerned that PCGS will be supplanted as "top dog"

Russ

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Russ, NCNE

agentjim007

mgoodm3 does have a very possibly theory, mine is just another possibilty.

MrEureka

According to the CDN: For more details on the (Certified Coin Market) Indicator and a complete listing of coins (included in the index), refer to the July 1988 Monthly Summary.

I suggest that we stop guessing and refer to the source.

davewang202

Do you have access to the 1988 monthly?

I am still interested to learn how the CDN index deviates from the apparent (perceived) acceptance of ICG holdered coins.

That is, I am certain that ICG holdered coins in many series would readily sell for less money in sight unseen venue such as Teletrade, just as I am certain that the sun would arise from the east tomorrow morning. CDN is suggesting that my perception of the acceptance of ICG holdered coins is incorrect. I would like to know how my perception differs so much from CDN's reality, and what the source of the distortion of my perception or CDN's reality is.

abuell

<< <i>Why not standardize the grading process instead of rivalry and frivolous chatter. There should only be 1 grading governing body. The World Grading Council. The ANA is pretty much useless as it can't enforce grading. >>



Yea, yea, that's what we need. Hey, we could call it the Office of Homeland Security! Screw up your grading and you'll be vacationing at Guantanamo Bay.

MrEureka

Do you have access to the 1988 monthly?

No.

Barry

And they still list NCI and INS. It surprises me this publication is well-accepted as it is. They seem to be out of touch with reality.

greghansen

I posted a thread on this issue last fall when I first noticed ICG's rating go above PCGS. It received suprisingly little discussion, however, I followed up and ordered the CDN back issue which describes how CDN arrives at their rating. It is more involved that I originally would have guessed. My old thread contains a link where you can order the July '88 Monthly CDN which describes how the ratings are arrived at. Here is the link to the old thread:

October 2003 thread discussing CDN 3rd party grading rankings

RGL

I remain puzzled how ICG even rates fourth place honors on most rankings of grading services ... To me, they are no better that NTC, PCI, etc. I picked up a 10-coin lot of ICG slabs on 54-58 Jeffs, at a very cheap price, and there was one coin graded correctly in the whole bunch. Six were UNDERGRADED by at least one point and two were overgraded.

sinin1

ICG advertises the most in CDN of any major grading company - is that involved in CDNs rating?

NYCcollector

What surprised me almost as much as the ICG overrating was the ANACS rating. The January issue puts ANACS way below PCGS and NGC. I wonder why?

DCAMFranklin

LOT'S of Members, Bear included, have found Barry Stuppler's opinion to be top-drawer. So, this auctions' description must say it all. Check it out:

LINK

DCAMFranklin

<< <i>ICG advertises the most in CDN of any major grading company - is that involved in CDNs rating? >>


Sinin1, as someone that has sold LOT'S of ICG coins on Ebay, I find your response rather hypocritical!.

Baley

I picked up a 10-coin lot of ICG slabs on 54-58 Jeffs, at a very cheap price, and there was one coin graded correctly in the whole bunch. Six were UNDERGRADED by at least one point and two were overgraded.

this makes them a bad service, how, exactly? sounds like a good deal, undergraded coins at a cheap price.

also, the coins were incorrectly graded according to what standard?

doop

forget the slab, that coin is a good planchet, fairly well centered and even striking and obviously kept in long time collections since
way back in the 1800's has no bad hits and grades better than you standard vf20 and not quite rock solid vf25 but being more into
the vf+ or vf23ish range it is indeed a vf25, no questions.

ccex

<< <i>"ratings" of anything are pretty subjective, based on the "rater's" criteria.

Look at the "ratings" of universities every year, what is the "best" US college?

as always, it depends.

ICG, IMO, is a good service, better than PCIs, NTC, ACG,

and on par with PCGS, NGC, and ANACS, at least for the coins I collect (pre-1960)

That said, I've heard they are lenient when grading moderns and give out MS70 and 69 when the "big 3" would say 69 or 68 respectively.

For older coins, I would say ICG is on par with the big three. I don't know about this "highest rated" business CDN is talking about, and am not too concerned that PCGS will be supplanted as "top dog" >>



Amen! I don't put much faith in CDN's Certified Coin Market Indicator. If CDN wanted to do this right, they would stop listing defunct grading services INS and NCI and would include NTC. They should also differentiate old from new PCI and include separate categories for modern high-grade ICG slabs from older coins in ICG slabs less than 67.

coppercoins

That whole ad campaign came from someone from ICG conducting a supposedly unbiased poll of fewer than half a dozen collectors in the eBay coin forum, a few of whom were friends. It was a bit over two years ago. They have been using that as an ad crutch for over a year in NN.

DanC

heheheh... I can see not much has changed here in the past couple 'o months. See ya all in about July or so -- when I'll check in again to see that not much has changed.

puff

roadrunner

The CDN says that the index is based on sight-seen bids on a basket of 20 US coins. Now what if there are only ICG sight seen bids on 2 of those 20? Seems it could go up more easily than for NGC and PCGS where they would have all 20 bids covered.

I could see sight seen bids for ICG coins going up faster than the other services as everyone knows these things trade for less than PCGS / NGC. Yet, it is very possible to find coins nice enough to cross and even go up a point or two. YOu would have to figure that the variability at ICG would be greater than NGC or PCGS.

This topic may be more about "scoring" on a coin rather than grading consistently and accurately.

roadrunner

AmericanSilverEagleCoins

Here is my theory. If PCGS slabs sell for more money it would probably mean that it cost dealers more to acquire them too. Let's say $50. But ICG slabs will cost them less to purchase- $30. If someone can't afford a PCGS slab at $100 they may go for an alternate ICG for a little less at $75. Perentage-wise a dealer may get a greater margin on the ICG. The PCGS would have been a 100% margin but the ICG will get the same $50 markup at 150%. For an experienced collector, they may never touch an ICG slab unless the coin is extrodinary condition, but to the young and or/inexperienced, saving $25 is a huge factor.
How many times have we heard stories about people looking for shiny coins instead of highly graded coins? In this case ICG seems to be in the proper niche