Best pitchers of the pitchers era - late 60's and 70's
jaybyrd
Posts: 377 ✭
Since we have a thread about whether Blyleven should go in the hall, I thought it would be interesting to rate the best pitcher of the the late 60's and 70's. My list would be in the following order.
10 - Phil Niekro
9 - Gaylord Perry
8 - Don Sutton
7 - Catfish Hunter
6- Fergie Jenkins
5 - Nolan Ryan
4 - Jim Palmer
3 - Bob Gibson
2 - Steve Carlton
1 - Tom Seaver
Why is Ryan only in fifth place? Great strikeout pitcher, but not as good an overall pitcher as the the one's in front of him.
10 - Phil Niekro
9 - Gaylord Perry
8 - Don Sutton
7 - Catfish Hunter
6- Fergie Jenkins
5 - Nolan Ryan
4 - Jim Palmer
3 - Bob Gibson
2 - Steve Carlton
1 - Tom Seaver
Why is Ryan only in fifth place? Great strikeout pitcher, but not as good an overall pitcher as the the one's in front of him.
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Niekro and Perry are iffy inmy book too.
For example, in 1969 he pitched but 90 innings going 6-3 with an era around 3.5 and struck out
92. in 1970 he was 7-11 in about 130 innings of work with about the same era and 125 SO's.
I also heard you get that job after 5,000 edits (which is my angle..obviously).
Where is Marichal and Koufax? Koufax had one of the most dominating 5/6 year stretches ever, and Marichal was very consistent.
<< <i>Koufax had one of the most dominating 5/6 year stretches ever >>
True, but that was early 60's. The title of this thread was late 60's and early 70's. Looking only at this time frame, I would have to put Palmer at the top of the list.
Robert
Any high grade OPC Jim Palmer
High grade Redskins (pre 1980)
In 1973, Wood went 24-20 and in the process pitched 359 innings!!!
What's more is. . .in 72, he was 24-17 and threw a totally ridiculous 376 innings! I mean did the White Sox go to a 3-man rotation for 72?
In 1974, he was 20-19 - but was a slacker since he only threw 320 innings.
I know Steve Carlton was the last pitcher to top 300 innings in a season (1980), but I wonder when was the last pitcher to record 40 decisions. I consider 40 decisions in a season to be pretty important since 40 decisions increases the chances that 30 of those decisions will be wins.
Mike
22-13, 1.91 ERA, 334 IP, 22 CG, 62 BB, 210 K's, 1.00 WHIP
His team was 79-83
Knucleballers.......now that's what's wrong with baseball.
just ask all the red Sox fans
Mike
However, I try to add the note at the end about which one of his cards were the toughest to find (not many responses to this). I've been searching for a decent RC of his from 71 but haven't found anything in a while.
Mike
wow David. . .you sure do know how to hurt a guy
How scary is it that Wood's 376 IP season is almost 10 complete games short of the single season record for innings pitched, held by Ed Walsh (464 1/3). IMO, that is the most unbreakable modern record in baseball, because of the revamping of a team's roster that would need to happen for it to be broken. [Of course, I'm putting aside records like best fielding percentage by a first baseman or outfielder in a season, since those are already at 1.000 and are technically unbreakable.]
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
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<< <i>Ahh Wilbur Wood - the last pitcher to win 20 games and lose 20 games - in the same season. >>
1979 Phil Niekro was 21-20 with a 3.30 ERA and pitched 342 innings.
<< <i>The title of this thread was late 60's and early 70's. >>
The title of the thread does not limit it to early 70's and I believe that is why many of the other players named have been left off. Koufax career ended in 66 and Marichal was as good as done after 73. I therefore have a problem with Gibson being on the list as well, since he did not really ptich after 74.
W L ERA G GS CG SHO IP BB SO
Carlton 225 160 3.09 487 469 200 42 3482 1202 2683
Seaver 235 133 2.56 455 449 197 52 3452 949 2887
Ryan 167 159 3.46 396 362 169 42 2689 1646 2909
Palmer 225 122 2.66 447 420 194 51 3274 1092 1927
This data is their complete pitching records through 1979 and since none of them ptiched before 1965 I believe it meets the criteria. This leads me to believe Seaver gets the award with Palmer pulling in 2nd. Add in the first few years of the 80s and Carlton and Ryan gain some ground.
54 Red Hearts
and now 64 Stand ups
Cy Young's win mark. . .
I would say Rose's hits mark - consider that's over twenty 200-hit seasons
Henderson's stolen base mark - the stolen base just isn't as big a deal now
Gibson's modern-era ERA mark for a season of 1.12
I do think the RBI record will fall eventually
Mike
which one of his cards were the toughest to find (not many responses to this).
perhaps his 1974 Topps Deckle Edge or '71 OPC, although niether are particularily tough and I don't know much about 'semi-vintage' cards.
54 Red Hearts
and now 64 Stand ups
During that time he was 245-181, had 7 20-win seasons, started 486 games, pitched 3,798 innings, had 47 shutouts, had an era just over 3, and had 2,908 strikeouts against only 789 walks!!!!!!
Many of those stats would top the list that you had. Im not saying he was the best of the best, but he should be included on that listing.
Keith
I should definitely have included Fergie and maybe a couple others. I just decided to grab those that were being discussed. Fergie was a big miss though.
Luke
54 Red Hearts
and now 64 Stand ups
Cy Young's win mark. . .
I would say Rose's hits mark - consider that's over twenty 200-hit seasons
Henderson's stolen base mark - the stolen base just isn't as big a deal now
Gibson's modern-era ERA mark for a season of 1.12
I do think the RBI record will fall eventually
Mike
Henderson's stolen base mark could be broken, if a manager wants to let his best baserunner run whenever he has a good chance to steal. The game has changed, but not in a fashion where it couldn't easily change back.
Rose's hits mark is 200 for 21 seasons plus a few, but when the top hitters can get 230 hits in a season, nothing puts it into the unacheivable category.
Gibson's ERA record would take a lot of luck to beat, but when a Greg Maddux can get a 1.56 ERA, or Pedro Martinez a 1.74 ERA with Fenway as his home park, I don't think it's out of the question.
Cy Young's win total would be by far the toughest of any you mentioned, but the game has not made it impossible. A top pitcher now will get about 35 starts a season, and could readily win 20 to 22 of them [most of the best current pitchers average 17 wins per full season played over their careers]. Then he just has to keep that pace up for 25 years.
Each of those records could be done by someone who is simply better than anyone else around him (and plays for a very long time, in the case of the career records). None of them affect teammates the way that having one pitcher start over 50 games would.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
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Vander Meer's ho-hitters I could see being matched, of not surpassed. Look at it this way, it's 2 games. If you throw one no-hitter, you're halfway there. Is there a record for consecutive no-hit innings? Didn't Nolan Ryan precede or follow up one of his no-hitters with a 2-hitter or something?
I love Wilbur Wood. I have a soft spot for flameouts, early deaths, ghastly injuries, things like that. If he had been just a little luckier, he might've done some historic stuff, I think.
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Henderson's 1406 steals translates into 70 a year for 20 years. Or 100 a year for 14 years. While a manager may let a guy run, I don't know he'd be able to run that much and for that many years. Plus, assume he's on the 14-year-plan and is going to steal 100 a year. Over 14 years, how many managers will he play for in that time? 3? 4? Will all of them turn him loose? If he's all that, then maybe. But that's not the way most managers handle games today.
To break Cy Young's wins record, you'd need twenty five 20-win seasons. Think about that for a minute. Just not going to happen.
Something to consider with regard to the ERA mark. . .only so much of it is in the pitcher's hands. The defense around him plays a part in that too. Perhaps could be done, but I think it's pretty unlikely. Certainly not with the diluted pitching in today's game and the super-bulked-up hitters today.
On Rose's hits mark. . .sure top hitters can get 230 hits per year. But at that pace, they'd need to average that for 18 years. Ichiro is averaging 220 hits per year. He'd only need to keep doing that for 16 more years.
Mike
Rose's career hit total is more likely to fall than Young's 511 wins. Gehrigs consecutive game streak was once thought to be untouchable. So was Ruth's HR total, and many other records.
But the game would have to be radically changed for anyone to approach 511 wins. Who is going to pitch for 25 years? Only Walter Johnson has surpassed the 400 mark.
An underrated single season record is for triples. No one has even cracked the top 25 in the post WW II era.
Remember, they lowered the mound right after that incredible pitchers season to help the hitters.
During that same season of Gibson's low ERA, Drysdale had the 58+ scoreless inning streak, McLain won 31 games, and there were an incredible number of shutouts that year...I think Tiant had a ton of shutouts that year too.
I have always hoped the mound would be rasied back up. I thought it was lowered by 9", but I am not certain.