More Coins stolen - now it's gold

relayer · February 17, 2004 8:32AM

- I bought a 1998 RFK Commemorative Set for $75. The seller sent me the PO receipt showing it mailed from VA (to CA) on 2/1. It never showed up.

- I sent an economy order to PCGS (with a 1962 DCAM Franklin in it) on 2/7. It hasn't been logged in yet, probably stolen.

- Today I get an empty insured padded evnvelope ripped open in the back.

A 1885-S $5 Liberty MS62 and a 1893 $10 Liberty MS61PL were stolen.

I've had my PO box there for years without any problem but have lost a bunch of coins now in the last couple of weeks. And nice ones at that.

The gold and PCGS order were insured. I filed the claim today for the gold coins, but I'd rather have the coins then the money.

I'm glad there is an UberMad emotion icon

kamehameha00 · February 17, 2004 8:34AM

Ow!That really sucks

Dollars · February 17, 2004 8:35AM

I am sorry for you loss. No amount of money will ever make up for a coin that was picked for appeal.

Well maybe alittle.

jdimmick · February 17, 2004 8:39AM

My new 1856 FE I just bought is in transit as we speak, I sure hope to H""L that it makes it here okay. I know the dealer I bought it from, would more than cover the lost, but I want the coin, it was hard enough finding a buisness strike S-3 as it was, not to mention the replacement cost would be well over what I paid for it even 45 days ago.

291fifth · February 17, 2004 8:45AM

Contact the Postal Inmspection Service immediately. The sudden loss of multiple items should get their interest.

Ethan · February 17, 2004 8:57AM

I agree and they will set a trap or something.........Messing with the postal service is ALMOST as bad as the IRS.

Myriads · February 17, 2004 9:05AM

I'm so sorry. When I though the PO had lost my 12-S Liberty Nickel I felt horrid. I knew I'd get the insurance but I'd spent time picking the coin, and watching my bid survive a live auction. Happily the coin showed up, but you have some clear signs of theft. I hope that they catch the person doing it, and that the PCGS coin pops up...

Myriads

Neptune · February 17, 2004 10:51AM

sounds like they may be targeting those boxes in particular - knowing now what's in them!

Conder101 · February 17, 2004 10:55AM

It is too soon to say that the first two are missing. (Where did the seller of the RFK set get a PO receipt showing it was mailed on a Sunday?) The PCGS order was only mailed six PO days ago. Was it shipped registered? If so it's going to take awhile. If not it probably should have been. Back when all those packages going to PCGS were being stolen it was because they knew the packages were high value and not easily traced (Insured and priority mail). They didn't touch the Registered packages.

The loss of the gold pieces from the bubble mailer is sad though.

fcloud · February 17, 2004 11:04AM

Bummer!

Condor, I think the post offices by the airports are open on sunday. I had something show up by me sent on sunday a few weeks back!

ccr · February 17, 2004 11:04AM

Ouch!

I`m sorry it happened and makes me sick that it happened.

Stuart · February 17, 2004 11:13AM

Relayer: I am very sorry to hear about your coin losses. As a collector, I am getting very leary about transacting coin business via the mail. There are too many things that can go wrong, and the transactions can be very high maintenance.

Best of luck to you in collecting on your insurance claims...

relayer · February 17, 2004 11:28AM

My mistake. The auction closed on Sunday 2/1. The seller said The proof set was shipped on February 02, 2004 from the
Patuxent River Naval Air Station, Maryland Post Office at 10:52 AM. and I'm in southern California so it be here by now.

That being missing was just an annoyance.
I've got 2 1/2 more weeks before I can do anything about the PCGS submission, so hopefully that will show up.

But I was really looking forward to the two gold coins.

You can imagine wanting to get your coins and being handed an empty package that used to contain your coins.

Even when/if they pay the insurance I'd much rather have these, but they now belong to a postal worker.

lordmarcovan · February 17, 2004 3:02PM

Hopefully, what comes around goes around, if you knowhutimean. If it has become a bad enough problem recently, it can probably be laid at the feet of one particular worker, and maybe he's just stolen enough rope to hang himself. One can certainly hope so.

In addition to filing your claims, be sure to call a Postal Inspector, and light a fire under 'em. You have some serious issues, there, and it sounds to me like it might be at your particular postal branch, maybe.

There was a while when I was losing nearly 2% of my mail, both incoming and outgoing.

Placid · February 17, 2004 8:50PM

The seller should give you your money back for the gold coins now.
The package was not lost but obviously pilfered so there is no chance they will show up.

Let us know how the post office treats you. Goodluck.

pontiacinf · February 17, 2004 9:55PM

not cool

ccrdragon · February 17, 2004 9:57PM

Conder - we have a central post office here in Dallas that is open and manned 7 days a week and 24 hours a day...

Total bummer about the coins - you should definitely contact the postal inspectors and get them involved - sounds like a local to the office has targeted your box and is ripping you off big-time!

sinin1 · February 17, 2004 10:06PM

the seller should not give money back, but insurance should go to relayer (if it does not show up before 30 days)

How big is your local post office relayer? If it is very big, maybe theft there but if small probably in transit - the post office also hires trucking firms - my postmaster said some theft is in transit but not by post office employees.

If items are over $700, cheaper to send registered (and safer - every person handling package needs to sign log sheet)

The package to PCGS is probably at PCGS - big backlog

zzzz · February 17, 2004 10:10PM

I know how heartbreaking it is to only to find out the mailer your coin WAS in is ripped and the coin missing. Upon talking to the clerks at the post office I've come to the conclusion that when using bubble wrap mailers you are taking more of a chance the mailer gets caught in a machine somewhere during transit.

What I do now is I always use boxes, they have all size priority or express mail boxes free. I then bubble wrap the coin and send it insured in the box. I have never had anything lost or stolen (yet).

Yes, it might cost a couple bucks more to send but why be cheap and the item doesn't show up at it's destination. You spend more time filling out insurance forms and then waiting for your money ....

That's my two cents

Pushkin · February 17, 2004 10:53PM

nepbrs44 · February 17, 2004 10:58PM

I feel for you and agree.......I would rather have the coins back....real nice ones too. I hope they catch the low life and throw the book at em.

Best of luck,

GOLDSAINT · February 18, 2004 12:00AM

I also have over $1,000 in coins bought on Ebay "lost" in the mail. In addtion I have slowed my purchased down on Ebay and in particular from the dealers that I am waiting insurance on.
I wonder how many more coins are now" lost" in the mail since 911 and all the post offices have installed scanners????
I certainly think that many Ebay sellers should consider offering UPS service as an option. Many of your comments are right on, its not the money as much as it is the coin. One of the "lost" items is a rare Overton Var. Bust half that I had been looking for for months.

1jester · February 18, 2004 12:37AM

Relayer, I'm sorry to hear of your losses. I hope they find the coins, and the crook(s).

I believe it's safest to send packages registered, and why not insure them for 2-3 times the actual value? Then you won't mind so much if they're stolen.

ms70 · February 18, 2004 1:06AM

And the kicker is that we keep paying for postal insurance to protect items from THE POSTAL EMPLOYEES!

Placid · February 18, 2004 1:10AM

They don't pay the insured amount unless what you sent was worth more.
You have to prove the value of the item to them and that is what they pay.
If you get $3,000.00 insurance on a $200.00 coin you don't get $3,000.00.

1jester · February 18, 2004 1:13AM

Placid, that sounds way uncool. How in tarnation are you supposed to "prove" the value of an item??? Seriously.

Placid · February 18, 2004 1:22AM

From the usps web site.

The customer must submit acceptable evidence to establish the cost or value of the article at the time it was mailed. (Other evidence may be requested to help determine an accurate value.) Examples of acceptable evidence are:

a. Sales receipt, invoice, or statement of value from a reputable dealer.

b. Customer’s own statement describing the lost or damaged article and including the date and place of purchase, the amount paid, and whether new or used (only if a sales receipt or invoice is not available). If the article is handmade, the statement must include the price of the materials and labor used. The statement must describe the article in enough detail to determine whether the value claimed is accurate.

c. Picture from a catalog showing the value of a similar article (only if a sales receipt, invoice, or statement of value from a reputable dealer is not available). The date and place of purchase must be included.

d. Paid repair bills; if the claim is for partial damage, estimates of repair costs or appraisals from a reputable dealer. Repair costs may not exceed the original purchase price.

e. Receipt or invoice for the costs incurred to buy a surety bond required to reissue a lost item.

f. Receipt or invoice of costs incurred for the reconstruction of nonnegotiable documents.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If its a coin you buy from a dealer or off eBay it should be easy enough to get what you paid back.
If its a raw coin you send to pcgs it might be a problem.

jhuberdude · February 18, 2004 1:24AM

I am so sorry about your losses! This is exactly the reason I have not sent anything in to be graded yet.
I just signed up with PCGS and want to send a few in, but now I am scared again!!

I feel like as soon as I bring in a little envelope to ship out and ask for over $1000.00 in insurance, it will be ripped off as soon as I walk out the door.

What to do?
John

MatthewBabcock · February 18, 2004 1:41AM

OUCH! I could say more, but others have already done a pretty good job of covering things that I would have.

On a side note... The US Government has enough faith in the USPS to authorize the shipping of some classified documents (read governement secrets) via USPS Registered mail.

Good luck with the recovery/insurance paperwork.

1jester · February 18, 2004 2:13AM

Placid, thanks for the info. The whole system is set up against you. It shouldn't matter one iota how much you paid for the item, but rather how much it's worth to you, and how much you're willing to purchase insurance for. After all, once it leaves your hands, it's completely their responsibility to deliver it safely, and you pay for that service. If they charge you money for the delivery, and insurance, they should make good on their promise if they fail to come through.

How does UPS handle insurance?

Placid · February 18, 2004 3:22AM

UPS

The Excess Value Insurance does not cover or insure against:
(a) articles of unusual value, which include (but are not limited to):
(1) coins (except pennies and nickels, and except proof and mint sets of United States coins tendered by United States mints of a face value not to exceed $2.41), currency, postage stamps, negotiable instruments,
money orders, unset precious stones and industrial diamonds, ; (2) any article which that contains more than fifty percent by weight of gold, silver, or platinum or any combination thereof in raw form, bullion, balls, bars, grains, strip, sheet, wire, chain, ingots and the scrap of these metals; and (3) any package having an actual value of more than $50,000.

1jester · February 18, 2004 3:27AM

So what does UPS insure???

Bear · February 18, 2004 3:55AM

The Postal Service inspectors may work slow,

but they usually get their man or woman,

as the case may be.

jhuberdude · February 18, 2004 4:04AM

So how does PCGS send graded coins back? Do they insure the coins as well?

relayer · February 18, 2004 4:14AM

Still no sign of the PCGS submission, but I can't do anything on that until March 7th.

But after hearing from both sellers I'm wondering if the problem is at my PO or not. Both sellers seem to be losing packages.
I used PayPal for the RFK set, so even though he send me a receipt showing he mailed it I'll probably file a Buyer Protection Claim.

I paid the gold seller with a money order. He's a Square Trade member (but I may be banned from Square Trade as a condition of an out of court settlement I made with them). But I'll go ahead and file a claim with them and eBay in order to hold the sellers interest. Even though he is cooperative, I wan't a little more action than just being wished "Good Luck".

I'll file a complaint with the Postal Inspector also. Thanks for all your input and Keep your coins safe!

RFK Set:

Hi Doug,
It seems another set I mailed to Sparks, NV has not
arrived yet, also. It appears that the packages are
getting slowed down at a hub somewhere. I sure hope it
comes soon. Even though it was not insured, the post
office will investigate. The other package that has
not arrived yet was insured for $150. The post office
will not investigate until the package is 30 days or
more overdue. I'm sorry it hasn't arrived, but let's
cross our fingers. I have had a package or two that
took a while to arrive. Please let me know if it comes
tomorrow.
Thank you, Jim.

Gold Coins

Wow Doug: I'm sorry. I have the original insurance receipt. Let me know if anyway that I can help. You know, this been happening to me lately. I lost an 1884-O $1 when the envelope was ripped opened. I also lost a Chinese Flying Dragon Coin coin out of a registered package worth $1500. I filed a claim to the post office and they said there's no sign of tampering on the package. They denied my claim. It sure looks like an inside job to me because how a registered package show no sign of tampering unless the person opened the package up and has access to the postal stamps and tapes to re-tape the package. Also, some of my customers lost coins the same way before. I use two different post offices, one on Hacienda Blvd and one on Gale Ave. So I belive this is happening in the postal processing facility. Please let your local postal inspector know about this and maybe they can start a thorough investigation. Good Luck

BigAl · February 18, 2004 4:39AM

Just lost a 95-O in the mail. Was sent insured from Daytona on 2/5, postal records show it made it here to Atlanta on 2/7, yet no coin.

I'm sick with frustration at these uneducated, incompetent, lazy, dumb azz postal workers here in Atlanta. There's no accountability with this POS organization. Spent about 1.5 hrs yesterday trying to track down this coin and another morgan which was sent REGISTERED! After waiting 45 min. this PO "supervisor" (who looked more like a pimp in his mustard colored suit) mumbled that he couldn't find anything and to "go to the carrier station and check there".

After getting (crappy) directions from super-fly supervisor, I go to the carrier station. There's no door. I knock on the window and a lady screems back "you not allowed here!". At this point I'm about to climb over the barbed wire fence and enter through the employee door when the vehicle gate opens to let a USPS semi out. So I walk thru the gate before it closes and get to the back door. Door's locked so I ring the buzzer non-stop for about 10 minutes before someone comes to the door to find out who the "crazy person" is who's ringing the buzzer. I explain why I'm there and politely apologize for disturbing them. They ended up finding the registered package (thank god!) but could not locate the 95-O. They didn't know "why" the package was still at the carrier station and not at the post office.

Oh yea, they didn't even check my ID. As a matter of fact, I've only been asked for ID once in maybe the last 10 pieces of registered mail I've picked up (pcgs and anacs submission pickups included).

USPS Sucks!

topstuf · February 18, 2004 6:12AM

Each registered package is signed for by each handler of it. It should be simple for them to see who had it last.

I had a hard time on an insured package ONCE. Called my congressman who was VERY interested. After a month of stalling and wanting me to establish COST on EACH of the silver dollars (they could not understand that a dealer buys hundreds from hundreds of people BEFORE shipping to ONE buyer)...but after the Congressman called em, I had my check in a week.

Go higher.

Edited to add: Just noticed that it was an INSURED package. Not good. But you should still get the money.

ladyship · February 18, 2004 7:47PM

I think Goldsaint is right. I think that since the post offices have installed scaners your mail is no longer private.
I am currently missing 3 coins two from Texas and one from Virgina. It seems to me this is happening all over the country. I have even talked with dealers that put the coins they ship in two packages without their company name, and they still get stolen. The only way that so many coins can be turning up missing is if they can see inside the package. As far as sending Government documents and other paper items, who would want to steal those. First of all you can't tell what they are. Our coins can be sold for cash in any city in America. I would never send cash through the mail as I am sure the scaners can read the metal implants in our money. Relayer, I think you should start a new post so we can discuss what can be done about this to protect our members, and readers.

1jester · February 18, 2004 10:47PM

I agree with Ladyship. This is an extremely troubling issue.

If I had it my way, every single person that handles mail would have to be bonded and insured, just like all people who are licensed to handle money, ie securities and insurance agents, etc. However, given that this is a government monopoly we're talking about here, my hopes of this happening are absolutely nill.

jhuberdude · February 19, 2004 4:57AM

Do you think I should put coins into a lead bag like the kind used for film. Then at least if they are scanned, they won't see the coins inside.
On the other hand it might make them more curious.

What to do?

John

python · February 19, 2004 5:34AM

Goldsaint, what scanners are you talking about?

Monstavet · February 19, 2004 6:11AM

I wouldn't put much faith in the post office investigating itself, or even paying full insurance claim...it took 3-4 months to process the claim, then they only paid me half the insured value! And it was there dumb employee who took the coins in the first plae (same guy that was taking everybody's shipment to PCGS bout two years ago). It took one of our forum members to catch the guy after he tried to sell the stolen coins through Teletrade. So Postal Inspection Service might as well P.I.S. off!

I am sorry abou t the loss of your coins. That really stinks!

LAWMAN · February 19, 2004 6:58AM

That there is a federal crime, son. Contact the authorities. Whoever is having fun doing that will be a guest of the feds and have a new roomate or two! And, well deserved might I add.

GOLDSAINT · February 19, 2004 7:17AM

Python, many post offices now have scnning devices like airports but smaller. Much of the letter mail, and almost all packages go through these machines looking for large cash amounts, "Letter bombs" etc. they also claim to be looking for hazardous material and the like. These devices pick up on the metal strips in our cash. It of course picks up all other metal objects. These scanners, as well as the ones at the airport, can tell if you are sending or carrying large amounts of cash, gold silver etc. Lets face facts, the government really would like to have a cashless, coinless, gold and silverless society. It is very hard for them to track the money from these transactions.
One of my coin dealer friends told me today that after the Houston coin show he went to his bank to deposit nearly $200,000. His bank not only made him fill in all the government forms for deposits over $10,000 but charged him $200 just ot make the deposit into his own account, but that's another story!
Lawman I know you are an attorney and think these postal people should be sought out , but just who is going to do that, their own people? Not very likely. I think it is plain to all that this is a problem that is wide spread accross the country, and not isolated to one area.

More Coins stolen - now it's gold

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