How does PSA "stand behind" the cards they grade?

Davino

I have an issue with a graded card that has an innaccurate description that I purchased on Ebay and I was wondering what the policy is with regard to compensation.

Thanks for your anticipated help!
Dave

murcerfan

edited: ....misunderstood the question,
..musta had one too many A-bombs

see answer below

Davino

Hahaha! Seinfeld, eh? Are you serious? This would have to beg the question of what good is a grading company that doesn't "stand behind" their grades.

Virtualizard

If you are talking about an error in the name on the flip, PSA will correct it at no charge. I seem to send at least 1 card in with every one of my submissions to be reholdered. Mark it on the submission form as "Mechanical Error" and make a note about what it should read. If you can, send it in with a submission to avoid paying the shipping charges to CA.

JEB.

Davino

Thanks for answering, Jeb. I appreciate any input on this situation which is far more serious then an error made on a label of a card that I submitted, it is the case of a 1913 National Game "Ty Cobb" card that I bought in August, then when I listed it on Ebay last week, I was informed that PSA had holdered a card that actually was of "runner sliding, umpire behind", which contains a picture of Ty Cobb but in actuality is not "the" Ty Cobb card from the set(which SMR values at $2500.00). The card is a PSA 9, and accordingly, I paid a lot for it. I was accused of fraudulently listing this card by several Ebay members and had to cancel my auction which had a bid at $2000.00, because the bidder was notified that the card was incorrectly labeled, as was I first notified of this at that time. Here is a link to the card in question:

My "Ty Cobb card"


Correctly labeled card


I would appreciate any advice, because although I spoke to Joe Orlando last week, he has not gotten back to me after specifically promising to call within a days time.

qualitycards

I'm sure all that PSA will do is label it correctly at no charge. They won't give you the funds of what a regular Ty Cobb is worth.
If PSA incorrectly labels the T206 Heinie Wagner as Honus Wagner, they won't pony up the value of the Honus Wagner as well...jay

Davino

<< <i>I'm sure all that PSA will do is label it correctly at no charge. They won't give you the funds of what a regular Ty Cobb is worth.
If PSA incorrectly labels the T206 Heinie Wagner as Honus Wagner, they won't pony up the value of the Honus Wagner as well...jay >>





Thanks for answering. I bought the card based on PSA's sterling reputation. A re-label would do absolutely no good for me, unfortunately...

qualitycards

I would contact the guy you bought the card from, since he too misrepresented the auction or sale by stating it was the Ty Cobb instead of the action card. ..jay

Davino

Thanks Jay, I appreciate your help.

Coucher73

You should've known what you were buying when you bought it. Did PSA make a mistake? Yes. But, if you were going to buy a card like that, you should've educated yourself about the card before buying it. It isn't PSA's fault that you bought the card.

SinibobCards

I have notified PSA several times in the past about mislabeling this card. There are at least 4 "Cobbs" that I know of that have been mislabeled like this. I always try to warn people when the cards go up for auction.

Also, there are 2 1913 NG cards up now that are actually reprints. Someone has taken the time to remove the word "REPRINT" from the back of the card.

This set can be extremely expensive if you do not do your homework.

If anyone is collecting this set and wants to trade or get some tips contact me at SinibobCards@aol.com.

GoSoxBoSox

Coucher73 is exactly right. I hate the way that sounds because it can happen to anyone. Unfortunatly the seller is the only person to turn to in this case...and he can claim ignorance in this case.

This you really stinks. I hope it turns out okay for you.

Davino

<< <i>You should've known what you were buying when you bought it. Did PSA make a mistake? Yes. But, if you were going to buy a card like that, you should've educated yourself about the card before buying it. It isn't PSA's fault that you bought the card. >>




Coucher73, I appreciate your take on the matter, but understand my point:
Although unfamiliar with the set, I see a card on Ebay that is ending soon, the card has a picture of Ty Cobb, PSA, the "#1" grading company has "authenticated" and slabbed it, the PSA "Authentication" serial # shows up on PSA's database as "1913 National Game Ty Cobb", THE SMR SHOWS ONLY "TY COBB", with no variations or other cards listed, I win the auction(NO ONE WARNS ME, AS THEY WARNED MY BIDDER THAT THERE IS AN ERROR), AND ITS MY FAULT?!? To say I should have researched the set is not the issue whatsoever. Thanks.

aconte

<< <i>Customer must inspect all cards/tickets immediately upon receipt and PSA disclaims any liability for damage or discrepancies (such as errors pertaining to the description of the card/ticket) unless reported to PSA within five (5) days of Customer’s receipt of the cards/tickets. Customer agrees to return any incorrectly described card/ticket to PSA upon request for correction and agrees to indemnify and hold PSA harmless from any and all losses and/or claims caused by the circulation or sale of incorrectly described cards/tickets. >>



Davino,

You may want to read #7 on the back of the submission form. Psa is not held responsible for
mechanical errors on the holder. It is unfortunate but pretty cut and dry to me. My guess is
this may be the reason for no phone call back. I hesitate to say much more in fear of suffering
the same fate as Davalillo.

aconte

Davino

Aconte, thanks for responding! The point is, I, being an innocent consumer, HAD NOT AT THAT TIME seen the submission form. This is like a car dealer having the wrong year or engine size on a car. The ultimate responsibility comes back to THE PROFFESIONAL who, in thjis case, incorrectly graded a card. Isn't that reasonable?

Davino

<< <i>

<< <i>Customer must inspect all cards/tickets immediately upon receipt and PSA disclaims any liability for damage or discrepancies (such as errors pertaining to the description of the card/ticket) unless reported to PSA within five (5) days of Customer’s receipt of the cards/tickets. Customer agrees to return any incorrectly described card/ticket to PSA upon request for correction and agrees to indemnify and hold PSA harmless from any and all losses and/or claims caused by the circulation or sale of incorrectly described cards/tickets. >>



Davino,

You may want to read #7 on the back of the submission form. Psa is not held responsible for
mechanical errors on the holder. It is unfortunate but pretty cut and dry to me. My guess is
this may be the reason for no phone call back. I hesitate to say much more in fear of suffering
the same fate as Davalillo.

aconte >>



This is not a "mechanical" error! That would be a typing input type of error, this card is mislabeled and misrepresented.

GoSoxBoSox

Davino,

I think the seller is more liable than PSA. The seller should see the mistake and do the right think...return your money. Then they should have PSA change the label at no charge.

If you paid by credit card you can stop the payment because you did not get what was identified in the purchae. That is, if you can make that case? It sounds to me like this is your best bet.

Did you use a credit card? Is there a certain amount of time you can go back to make a claim?

Ruthfan

Davino,

If I recall there was a thread awhile back on the coin board where a coin was incorrectly identified and labeled wrong by Collectors Universe. The coin was purchased under the assumption that it was a rare item, when in fact it was only a common coin. A dealer with a little knowledge in coins purchased this for a customer and is now left holding the bag. I don't know anything about coins so I can't elaborate any further on this. I am not sure if the dealer was ever compensated, but I wish you luck on this. I DO think PSA should take SOME responsibility for their mistake.

I look at it like this. If I were to buy a car. It had on the window sticker that it come equipped with a 3.5 liter engine with 260 horsepower. I get the car and not being very mechanicly enclined I think everything is ok. Well, I try to sell this car and it turns out the car is only a 4 cylinder with 175 horsepower. Who is responsible then? The dealer since they listed the car as something it really wasn't.

I'm sure Davino had never seen the card before and when he looked up the price in the SMR under what PSA had listed the card he thought it was a good deal.

Todd

acowa

Davino

I would be really interested in what your lawyer has to say about the matter. In your suit, you would be suing a company for negligence. However, you never paid the defendant (PSA) any money directly for the work. In effect, you never personally hired them to do anything in this case. With respect to line 7, you didn't submit the card and hence didn't agree to the terms, so it doesn't apply to you.

In the auction where you won and bought the card, was there a picture of the card? I honestly think that you would have better luck going after the seller in small claims (especially if there was no picture). If there was a picture, the seller could claim that he provided full disclosure of exactly what he was selling and that he provided exactly what you paid for.

Assuming that you won against PSA, the lawyers would eat up the money you won (plus some). Your damages would be the difference between the value of the Cobb card and the Runner Sliding, Umpire behind card. I assume that amount is under $2000.

None of this excuses the slip up on PSA's part. It's a serious mistake. However, before spending $2500 on a card, a buyer should do some homework as well.

Good luck with everything.


Regards,



Alan

curmudgeon

Davino,

You have every right to complain and expect compensation from PSA

<, if you were going to buy a card like that, you should've educated yourself about the card before buying it. It isn't PSA's fault that you bought the card. >

I strongly disagree. First of all, you did educate yourself--you looked at the SMR and saw only one Cobb. If you look at the mess that PSA calls a Pop report for this issue, there is no designation of Cobb as being on any other card, although it does list "runner sliding, umpire behind" (twice in fact). Its not as if these are offered so routinely that anyone with reasonable knowledge would know the card is not Cobb--heck, it is him depicted.

More importantly, you are right, it is PSA's job to authenticate the card. This was not a "mechanical" error, this was a card graded by someone who does not know the card issue. Who should bear responsibility for knowing whether the card is in fact what is labeled to be? A business whose very claimed area of expertise is authentication and grading, who knows that it's opinions are stated on a flip that will be relied upon by the hobby and the general public, and who promotes itself by claiming that its customers can have peace of mind that it is the best at what it does? Or John Q Cardcollector.

This is a remarkable gaffe. Much like what happened when PSA slabbed and gave a good grade to a fake m101-5 Jim Thorpe last year, it is incredible to me that high-profile cards that are bound to fetch several hundred and more likely thousands of dollars are not treated with greater attention. This is not some mid-sixties low pop common we're talking about, but one where someone paid a grading premium to have a "Cobb" evaluated. You can't tell me that PSA routinely grades cards (Cobb) like this every day, or that it is both unrealistic and unreasonable to expect that a potential four-figure card be examined an extra time before it gets out the door.

I truly hope you and PSA can work out something to your mutual satisfaction. Good luck.

Davino

Thanks curmudgeon! That is my opinion also.

Acowa, there was a picture and I don't think the seller necessarily misrepresented the card, I feel that the ultimate responsibility lies with the grading company that was paid to authenticate and grade the card. The issue here is one of credibility of information provided by experts that specialize in an area, and a misled consumer that, based upon said experts opinion, made an investment that turned out to be innacurate and compelled the consumer to feel that the product was what the grading company had labeled it to be.

edited to add further comments

Davino

Thanks Ruthfan, what you wrote is essentially the crux of the matter, misrepresentation, whether knowingly or by accident by experts leaves the ultimate responsibility on the shoulder of the experts...

GoSoxBoSox

Call Joe. You've got the proof to back-up your claim. I'd love to hear his reaction.

edited to say: ask Joe for a credit of $2k worth of grading fees

aconte

Bad choice of words using 'mechanical' error in my response. But I stand by what I wrote when
reading #7 of the back of the submission form. I don't think that just because Davino did not
submit the card to Psa changes anything. My point of the post is to just answer the question
made by Davino. I don't agree with it but the bottom line is if this would go to court it would just cost
time and money as mentioned by Acowa.

In all honesty if you are going to look for a favorable resolution I would continue to discuss this with Joe O. Any type of posting on this board might not help at this point in the conversation/discussions. You are not helping yourself. It is definitely unfortunate this happened but I think you are early enough
in the negotiating to get an answer you are looking for. Maybe...

I will say that these errors and a variety of mechanical errors have increased recently...

Good luck!

aconte

gemint

PSA needs to have a knowledgable card grader review post-holdered cards worth more than 'X' amount (maybe $1000). Some of the mechanical errors I've seen are obvious while others are more subtle. It's clear that nobody with knowledge of cards is reviewing the labels to ensure they are correct. I've even seen labels listed as 'MINT 7'.

With the volume of cards PSA grades, it's not feasible to ask them to recheck labels for all commons, but it wouldn't be too much to have them review the big ticket cards for accuracy. Especially now that those cards must be submitted under premium service levels. These cards should go to the most experienced grader and have a second review after encapsulation.

koby

Davino,

Sorry to hear about your situation. I think that you should go after the seller a he is the only one who has benefited from this incident at your expense. Unfortunately, I don't think PSA will do anything but relabel your card with the proper identification.

A few years ago, I purchased a card that was mislabelled. In my case it was relatively low dollar 1996 Ken Griffey card. There was no scan but the ebay seller gave the serial number and the PSA online certification confirmation said it was a refractor. When I received the card the label said "refractor" but card turned out to be not a refractor, but a regular version of the card. At the time, the difference in value was $60 versus $6.

The only thing PSA could offer was offer to relabel the card. THe customer service representative specifically told me that was a "mechanical error" and PSA would only correct the label. They also will pay for postage and insurance.

Koby

Davino

aconte, I in no way started this thread in order to bash PSA or in any way "stir up trouble", I started this thread to ascertain the best course of action, and have contacted Joe Orlando by phone and email in good faith, and am not interested in anything other than compensation for the money I spent for the card based upon the proffesional grading of the card.

Davino

Koby, I think in your case also that PSA should have been responsible for mislabeling a card as that of a rarer, and consequentially, more valuable card. The whole point of grading is to have an unbiased, accurate portrayal of what the card actually IS.

Davino

GoSoxBoSox, I don't think I would have any recourse through my credit card because this card was bought in August.

Davino

I just got an email from Joe, and he said he's going to call me! He really is quite a nice guy, he was out of town...

GoSoxBoSox

<< <i>aconte, I in no way started this thread in order to bash PSA or in any way "stir up trouble", I started this thread to ascertain the best course of action, and have contacted Joe Orlando by phone and email in good faith, and am not interested in anything other than compensation for the money I spent for the card based upon the proffesional grading of the card. >>



So what did Joe say? If he offered anything above re-labeling to help make-up the $2k, it's better than nothing because I seriously doubt you'll ever get the $ back in cash from PSA.

In some respects I think you're correct because I think you got the shaft. But I see PSA's point as well. Ultimately, if I look at this objectively I think a buyer should know exactly what they're buying. It would be different if you bought the card based off a description with no picture. Even in that case I would think the card would be rejected upon receipt since you see it isn't what it was labelled.

The fact here is you really didn't know what the card should look like. The time for rejecting the card within a reasonable amount of time has passed....I think we would all agree on that. Is it PSA's fault you bought the card? No.

That said....I'm not saying you're totally wrong either. I'm just saying you need to share in the blame and take whatever it is that Joe "might" be will to give. Of course make sure the seller won't refund your money first and ditto with the credit card company (both are indeed unlikely but asking is free).

Good luck Davino. This is a tough one to swallow.

qualitycards

Everyone is saying $2k and $2500. What did the card actually cost? Not what was the true value of the mislabel. Perhaps many other bidders shyed away knowing this wasn't the regular issued Cobb. Just curious. ...jay

SinibobCards

The following are mislabeled Ty Cobb cards from the 1913 NG set:
11367834 - corrected in the database now but still mislabeled
11401207 - still wrong
30003835 - still wrong
50003751 - Will be fixed soon I'm sure.

All of these cards have sold on Ebay within the last 2 years. I have copies of the images if someone at PSA wants them. I don't know who to e-mail the images to. No corrections were made when I e-mailed the pictures the last 2 times. 50003751 was one of the cards. I still have the scan when it was on Ebay the last time.

I will not post them because I am not here to bash PSA. PSA actually got me interested in collecting cards after a 10-year absence. I just want to bring the population report more in line with what has actually been graded. Making the corrections in the database will also help to cut down on problems like the one that is at the heart of this thread.

-Mike

Kosmo

Based on what I am reading on this thread, it seems like PSA claims that any incorrect labeling is a "mechanical error" regardless of whether or not it was a grader who lacked knowledge about the card being graded.

Davino

Joe called me and informed me that he remembers the specifics of this card that was wrongly labelled at a show, and that the person who had submitted it(a major dealer), had been aware of the mislabeling. He's going to getr back to me, and it looks like I will be reimbursed and a fraud action will be taken against the person who had the card graded. Joe is really reasonable and showed genuine concern for my plight.

CW

Mike, kudos to you for trying to get these fixed
in the past!

Jay, that's what I call looking at the big picture,
and you're right -- Davino never did say what he
originally paid back in August...

Davino, best of luck & it's good to hear Joe's looking
into it. I'd still take gosox's advice & contact
your plastic giver. When I made a claim and asked about
the deadline for making a claim, the guy said there is no
deadline but obviously the sooner the better.

minibeers

Awesome post. I hope it truly ends happily. Looks like the gears are in motion...
one man gathers what another man spills
minibeers

Davino

<< <i>Everyone is saying $2k and $2500. What did the card actually cost? Not what was the true value of the mislabel. Perhaps many other bidders shyed away knowing this wasn't the regular issued Cobb. Just curious. ...jay >>



I paid over $1500. for the card.

GoSoxBoSox

<< <i>Joe called me and informed me that he remembers the specifics of this card that was wrongly labelled at a show, and that the person who had submitted it(a major dealer), had been aware of the mislabeling. He's going to getr back to me, and it looks like I will be reimbursed and a fraud action will be taken against the person who had the card graded. Joe is really reasonable and showed genuine concern for my plight. >>




This will be interest. I wanna see how Joe pulls this off since his company is to blame for the original mislabeling. Can he really go after someone for fraud for not sending the card back to PSA? Maybe he can go after them if they were the people that sold it to you. Is that the case?

Davino

I'm not sure what is going to happen, but it appears that whoever got the card graded knew that it was wrongly labelled and failed to have it corrected.

edited to correct spelling error....