Sumatra 1804 4 Kepings-difference of opinion with dealer-IMAGES ADDED

laurentyvan

Are the strike characteristics of the Sumatran 1804 thin planchet 4 Kepings (KM267) going to be different than the thick planchet (KM266)
of the same year? I've seen this coin on the forum before and if someone has an UNC or AU they could show, I would appreciate it.

I'm having a grade opinion conflict with my dealer who has graded this coin I wish to purchase as UNC. The piece looks flatly struck but the noses on the lions aren't sharp, one looks like definite wear. The dealer contends that the flat strike is responsible-I think the coin is probably XF+, at best AU.

Was he correct-does this thin planchet strike differently than the thicker, and if so, enough to give one of the lions a semi-flat nose?

lordmarcovan

I'm stumped.

I've never seen a Sumatran 4-kepings coin.

farthing

I'm afraid that all I have is a 1 Keping

CIVITAS

A weak strike on any coin will cause flatness of detail and then the trick is (as you pointed out) determining what is weak strike and what is wear. His argument as to WHY the weak strike occured seems a bit fallacious and irrelevant.

1jester

You guys are better than me--I've never heard of one !!!

laurentyvan

He has called me with a 20% price reduction-I'm going to buy the coin and image it-you'll recognize it when you see it.

mongoose

I'm afraid that all I have is a 1 Keping
Same story here, can't offer any help on a 4 K.
Looking forward to the pics Laurent!

laurentyvan

Got the images-very difficult to image-very, very dark multi-colored coin. I'm thinking not UNC. Am I wrong?

ajaan

Looks Unc to me. Discolored, but Unc.

laurentyvan

You mean I politely beat the crap out of this guy and I'm wrong?

Actually, the discoloration is stronger in the picture than in hand-I had an awful time with the lights and I don't know why.

Aethelred

Although I am not familiar with that issue (I've seen them, but never really paid much attention), I would suspect that a thin flan would be harder to strike fully. The dies would need to be set closer and greater force would be needed to cause less metal to flow into the low areas of the die (high areas of the coin). I would doubt that die settings or pressure issues would have been thought about on a coin of that type in that era.

Lloyd

That appears UNC (or virtually so) to me also.

I was going to say earlier, that if you have an XF coin it usually APPEARS to have been circulated. This is usually obvious. It would take a fair bit of rubbing to flatten those lions noses. Meanwhile the rest of the coin would have been beaten up.

Just logic.... This is speaking as someone who doesn't even know what the hell coin that is!!

EDIT TO ADD: without going too far, another point are the rims. The lion side has a very shallow rim but you can still see the "beads" are not worn.

Lloyd

farthing

I'd call it UNC also. Nice looking coin even with the discolorisation.

NJMark1

Really nice coin. Appears to be UNC to me also. Lloyd sums it up and I agree.



<< <i> was going to say earlier, that if you have an XF coin it usually APPEARS to have been circulated. This is usually obvious. It would take a fair bit of rubbing to flatten those lions noses. Meanwhile the rest of the coin would have been beaten >>



Mark

theboz11

Van, I posted this East India a couple weeks back. It is AU, the Lions nose on the right seems to take the wear first

laurentyvan

Thanks for the input- I learned a lot this time around.

This is not a small coin by any means, almost 36 mm in size. Produced only in 1, 2, and 4 kepings denomination, there is no mintage listed for the 4 kepings shown. In 1824 Sumatra became a dutch possession, yet dutch coins for the area dated from 1814 exist. Not a very common coin, it still wasn't too expensive at $35. Yes, I would have liked a better visual example without discoloration, but I am pleased with the AU or UNC condition.

As a several per country collector, I don't have the luxury that many collectors do of concentrating on a small area in numismatics, buying only the finer examples extant. Generally my bottom grade is VF, but lately I am trying to maintain XF as a bottom grade.

Boz, I thought I had seen one lately-thanks for the comparison image. This coin seems to take on a purplish brown hue as it ages-rather interesting patina.