A hard question about Russian Plate Money

Refrema

This should really test the experts here.

I have questions about these pieces of plate money which are all copper. The first image is of two Russian pieces 1 & 5 Kopeks. The second has one Russian (I think) one from Brazil, and I do not know what the other one is. There is a mm scale with each image so that you will see the size, and the backs of all of the plates are blank. One or two on the second image may be Siege money, but where from?





Nickolai is working on this, but I was wondering if anyone else knows anything about them.

Any help will be greatly appreciated. If you need a better image, PM me and I will E-Mail it to you.

Thanks,

Bob

CIVITAS

Can you provide a larger clearer image of the second photo? It's really hard to see any detail.

1jester

Conder101

I'm not sure why but beard tax tokens comes to mind. I thought they looked something like that.

danglen

Could the center one one the bottom row be fron the Netherlands East Indies Company? The lettering looks like something similar to a VOC Duit.

CIVITAS

Let me preface this post with a few things: 1. I am not an expert in this type of coinage and have handled very little of it. 2. It is difficult to fully judge authenticity from internet photos. 3. I've been wrong before.

My first impression of this group is that I hope you bought them from a reputable source with a guarantee of authenticity.

You're right about the first two. They are supposed to be Russia, 1726 1 and 5 Kopeks. The original 5Ks were very hand hammered on rather roughly cut blanks. Yours is a little too nice and smooth looking to my eye. The 1 Kopec is just guilty by association in this case. The patina is very similar to the 5K. Both have a bit of a cast appearance. So far, every genuine plated specimen of the "plain eagle's breast" I've found in our library has a severly dropped 6 in the date on the 5K which yours is lacking. Since these were originally struck to pay mine-workers at Ekaterinburg and were not circulated outside that area, I can't imagine there were too many dies. A genuine 5K should be about 80g. with a specific gravity of 8.9. Many counterfeits fall in the 70g. range.


In the second pic, the first item is supposed to be some kind of emergency issue from the Ernestine line of Saxony under Johann Friedrich. Exactly what, I don't know. The second as you pointed out resembles a 12 Florin piece from the Dutch occupation of Brazil, but I thought those were supposed to be gold. The last has me stumped as to what it's supposed to be but I'm sure you're in the right neighborhood with Russia. These three rub me the wrong way because they are from 3 very different geographical regions, three different centuries yet each has exactly the same coloration and patina with just the right touch of corrosion and the fact that the middle one is supposed to be gold(?) doesn't sit well either.

Refrema

I figured someone would have at least some information.

The two Russian plates came from different sources several years apart. Both were bought in Europe in different countries. I will need to weigh them, but the coins and scale are in different locations. I thought they were close to the Novadels on page 964 of Krause 1700s 2nd edition. The backs just don’t look like they could have been cast.

On the second photo. Thanks for the lead on the left one, it came from the same dealer in Europe as the Right one. The center one is from yet another dealer. I had seen the Gold & Silver coins listed, but have never seen a reference to a copper version.

I will get weights on all of them tomorrow.

Thanks Very Much for the help.

Shipcoin

After such a great post of Civitas, I can only hope that I could add something.. Here you can find the "prices" for 5 and 1 kopeks Platmynt. I wrote "prices", because as I have e-mailed you on the basis of my printed catalogue at home, here one very serious Russion Web source also shows that these small denominations are extremely rare ones, and it gives the price by letter "R" that means that the price could be set only at auction! Your coins are N 5 and 6 from the top, so from that source, you can see, at least, that:
Russian Platmynt

1) As it have been already told--them are real raritets;
2) There are exist 3 varyties for each (1 & 5 kopeks) denomination
3) You can see here exact weight and dimensions for both pieces , that should be. (81.9 gr for 5 and 16.98 for 1 kopeks)

Actually you can see that only 10 kopeks (4th from the top in the table is relatively spread piece--but also its prices are quet serious ones!)