On a slightly different note...........

bongobell

I have been reading a lot of posts lately and was wondering if there are any collectors out there who would prefer card collecting the way it used to be.......before third party card grading and ebay began?

Although we all cherish these little pieces of card for pleasure, investment, financial security, nostalgia or whatever reasons I should imagine there are many new collectors who have started collecting due to the appearance firstly of PSA and then eBay.

It seems to me that mainly due to PSA and then ebay there is now huge investment potential (and outlay too at times) involved in collecting cards. Surely it is the consistency of both PSA and prices paid at auction and on ebay that gives us the confidence to "invest" the kind of money that we do in these small pieces of printed pasteboard.

Obviously, everything is relative and many cards could be picked up 10-15 years ago (if you could find them!) for a fraction of the price they cost now. Yet without new collectors, contacts or renewed interest in the hobby the resale potential would be minimal too. Nowadays, contacts can be made, friendships sealed and collections shared worldwide.

Personally, If the market for cards in general caved in I know I would collect them just the same if not more so purely for aesthetic/nostalgic reasons if nothing else. There are also many cards I would pay to have encapsulated just to give them extra protection.

I originally started collected cards for the pleasure of looking at them, the joy of owning them and the thrill of completing the sets. If anything has changed for me it is that nowadays many cards are now much more accessible due to the internet and can also bring a pleasant financial return on time and money invested (in my opinion due mainly to professional and consistent third party card grading).

Alright, cards cost more now (sometimes an awful lot more) to buy but before all this began you couldn't rely on other peoples grading when buying cards unseen via mail/auction or even have access to many of the cards now available.

I believe collecting graded cards for investment is a bit like the stock market. If you believe in the product you are getting then put money into it if you don't then don't. This is a decision everyone is free to make.

I really enjoy having my cards graded, the anticipation of the grades, the highs and lows when the grades are posted and ultimately getting my cards back encapsulated. For me it is a rekindling of the initial joy of finding the cards in the first place. Each card is protected inside its own case and can be handled and viewed much more easily than before without the worry of damaging the card. I realise the cards cannot be "sniffed" anymore but lower grade cards can be put aside for this purpose (Yes, I have done this in the past too. Weird phenomena isn't it?)

I'm a big fan of the set registry and think the population report is an invaluable reference (whether it is 100% correct or not). I enjoy seeing other collections listed and like reading other peoples thoughts on this board regarding card collecting. The SMR is a guide just like any price guide and should be treated as such. I'm sure we all have cards we think are currently undervalued in guides. At the end of the day cards are only worth what someone is willing to pay for them at any given time. I do buy cards graded by other companies but invariably crack them out and resubmit them to enable me to add them to psa's registry.

I originally chose PSA as my choice for grading because they seemed to be the most respected amongst collectors. As I am in the UK, I was also pleased to see they offered an international service (most/all other companies I have since discovered do not). Having used them regularly for submissions over the last two years I firmly believe PSA also offers the most reliable and consistent service. As I mentioned I have cracked out and resubmitted many cards from other grading companies and very rarely do I get an upgrade. In fact, many cards go down a grade or two which to me only goes to strengthen my belief in PSA's overall product.

Do I own PSA cards which I think should/could be a grade lower or higher ? Yes, but I believe this evens out in the long run and besides we can all crack and resubmit cards and see what happens. I've often wondered what the results would be should a random number of cards be submitted and resubmitted a number of times. I would think there will always be borderline cards and also some slight variation involved but overall the cards would be graded correctly. I don't think there can ever exist a perfect grading system whether it be a half point or 1000 point system.

It is the nature of cards not to be identical and I for one enjoy this fact. I think that if all cards were easy to find perfectly printed, centred and registered then much of the fun would go out of cards. The thrill of the chase is part of the fun too and without third party card grading everyone you talked to would have thousands of MINT cards in their collection.

Hang on................This post seems to be going on a bit.............I'm starting to waffle......think I need a drink......or to get laid......or both.

I'm sure there must have been a shorter way of writing this post.

A simple yes or no answer to my original question will suffice. I guess my answer is yes and no or maybe but probably not I think......

Nick

GoSoxBoSox

<< <i>I have been reading a lot of posts lately and was wondering if there are any collectors out there who would prefer card collecting the way it used to be.......before third party card grading and ebay began? >>




Be careful Nick. This might be viewed as anti-PSA propaganda.

yawie99

No, I wouldn't. I hated the fact that in the '80s, you'd buy a card for nearly 100 percent of its Beckett "value," but if you ever wanted to sell, you either had to find a collector who wanted the card - which was possible, but certainly not as easy as it is now - or be at the mercy of dealers who paid, what, 30 percent of its value when buying cards.

On a side note, if grading disappeared, I'd probably still collect cards, but if eBay did, I probably would not. The two seem made for each other, but it was eBay that rekindled the passion I had for collecting when I was kid and early teenager.

bongobell

I hope I haven't crossed the "line", just wondered what other's perceptions and opinions were.

Nick

oaktown

I couldn't agree with yawie more. Even as a kid collecting in the late 80's early 90's, I knew I was getting the shaft from dealers with the Beckett price bible. They'd offer 60% of book to buy and sell at 100% book. Sweet scenario for them! But the combination of eBay and PSA has made it possible for the average person to make a buck here and there when purchasing or selling.

ctsoxfan

<< <i>They'd offer 60% of book to buy >>



If you were lucky, that is! Usually more like 25-40%, and with the attitude that they were doing you a favor by buying/trading for your stuff. At least today, you can Ebay what you don't want or need anymore, and recoup some of your money back.

koby

<< <i>They'd offer 60% of book to buy and sell at 100% book. >>



Wow. i must have been selling my cards to the wrong dealers. I was lucky to get 25% to 40% from dealers at shows.

The combination of ebay and PSA has certainly evened the playing field in that regard. Now it is so easy to rid of extra cards in the collection. Of course, this is possible only with grading. Otherwise it would be difficult to convince buyers that the card is graded or described accurately.

AlanAllen

I've done a 180 from how I felt 5 years ago. I think the hobby is better for grading, and worse for the direction modern cards have gone. I used to think choice was a good thing, and "innovations" would enhance long-term value; but now I see it as confusion and gimmicks. I used to think I could grade my own cards thank-you-very-much, but now I see the standardization and commoditization as a positive force.

Joe

Vargha

koby has it 100% right -- eBay and PSA (SGC, Beckett, GAI) has made the playing field much more level. I would never want it how it was.

Remobolan

I have to throw my hat in with Yawie, I purchased over 400 Dan Marino Cards that were "Near Mint' from dealers in the late 80's early 90's. After looking at them recently I should have invested that money in Enron stock! However, my 1972 PSA graded set is worth more than I paid for it and I got great cards. I know alot of dealers don't like grading, but that is usually because the cards they are calling "Near Mint" are not. I like the fact that at least someone else has looked at the card (someone who is not a party to the sale even if they are not perfect) it gives me a more secure feeling. Good Thread Bongobell.

BigKidAtHeart

<< <i>Be careful Nick. This might be viewed as anti-PSA propaganda. >>

ACTUALLY it would not be
since JOE ORLANDO himself addresses
this very issue of the change in the collecting
world from the 80s to Today, in the latest
SMR issue (March2004) which arrived today BTW


~jeff

scottsusor

Nice idea for a thread and excellent opening post.

At 45, I don't feel like an old-timer (I can hear you guys in your 20's laughing) but I guess in terms of the hobby, I am one. As somebody who was heavily into the hobby, albeit very young, back in the era when card collecting really exploded (the early 1970's), I'd like to contribute my own perspective to this thread.

No question, its a very different hobby in 2004 than it was in 1974, and its not just professional card grading and/or eBay that has effected the changes. In fact, the hobby underwent its most major change BEFORE the advent of professional card grading and the arrival of the internet. That change came in the early to mid 1980's. After the breakup of Topps' monopoly on card manufacturing in 1980, the sports card world truly went from "cottage industry" to "big business," and not only for the makers of cards (Topps, Fleer, and Donruss). Those in the business of reselling baseball cards also went from small-time mail-order and convention-table operations to large scale advertising, store front retail, and convention-block area operations.

Meanwhile, Topps, Fleer, and Donruss continued to pump out cards in huge numbers -- far exceeding the demand for their product at that time. Cards were everywhere and they were no longer cheap to buy. The increase in cost of new cards effected an increase in value (and cost to buy) of older cards. Dollar signs got bigger and bigger. The investment (i.e. those with lots of money) community, some whom were already involved in cards and many who weren't, started to take notice. As cards presented a hard-to-trace investment vehicle, they were seen as a terrific way to "hide" excess cash, both in terms of buying and selling.

The hobby's major print publication, Sports Collectors Digest, literally exploded in size -- mirroring the "hobby" which really was not much of a "hobby" anymore. Many long-time collectors, including me, had simply had enough of what was happening and interest faded. I'd guess that by 1990, about 80% of the buying and selling going on in the "hobby" was done so out of investment (buying) and profit-making (selling) between the business base that had replaced the collector base.

Personally, I believe that the concept of professional card grading came about not as a result of demand by collectors, but rather as a result of investors who wanted higher assurance in maintaining the value of their inventories. That is not to say that it was seen as a bad thing, though most of the collectors, now standing on the sidelines of the hobby, were very anti-grading at the time. I have to admit that I was right there with them. I thought that professional card grading was a horrible concept, and went 100% counter to the very essence of card collecting. But I didn't really care. I was still subscribing to SCD but week after week, my SCD's went directly from the mail stack into the trash, unopened and unread.

I see eBay's rise as almost irrelevent in terms of the hobby itself. It provided a cheaper, quicker, more cost-effective forum in which to buy and sell, but if it had any sort of real effect on the hobby, I haven't seen it. Instead, something else happened around the mid-late 1990's that truly DID affect the hobby. Investors and those who had built up big card enterprises started to see interest in cards start to wane. We could argue all day about what started it, but the card manufacturers themselves were as much to blame as anyone. Now they weren't just putting out one or two different sets of cards, but lots and lots of sets of cards, some large some small. They all included the same players -- just different set names, different formats, different pictures of the players, and different (and always higher and higher prices). Card shows proliferated -- almost every weekend you could find a card show somewhere nearby and 90% of what you'd find was "new stuff." But not enough people were buying it.

Card stores starting closing up. Card shows weren't occurring as often. Even the "big" card shows started losing sellers. And still, those former big-time collectors were standing on the sidelines, with arms folded, muttering "I told you so."

Today, we're seeing a sort of a re-birth of cards as a "hobby." No, there's not a HUGE rush back into it by collectors. Most, like me, are wary of a repeat of history if it reverts back to what it became. But if you look hard, you can see some evidence of it. And now, there are truly COLLECTORS of professionally graded cards, as opposed to INVESTORS. To be sure, those who collect graded material, especially vintage, are the more monied collectors. But the more monied collectors were always there, even back in the 1970's. They also collected the higher value stuff back then. No big deal, that's how it should be.

Do I long for the "good old days?" Not really. Everything changes and the world moves on. I believe now that professional card grading companies like PSA have delivered solid value to the card collecting hobby (note, I said hobby and not business). So has eBay.

But, I'd like to leave you with one thought here. If you haven't lately, take a good look at the content of Sports Collectors Digest and Tough Stuff and even PSA's Sports Market Report. What you'll see is a huge presence of advertisements with captions like, "Always Looking for Consignments" and "We'll Buy Your Collection" and "Nobody Beats Our Buy Prices." Big ads, small ads, even classified ads would give the casual observer the idea that nobody is actually SELLING anything retail, everyone is BUYING wholesale, or at least trying very hard to do so. The wolf may be at the door again.

Scott

40ozman

I collect both slabbed and raw. I work on 80's sets from when I was kid, some of them are slabbed, some are raw. I have a very nice 81 topps set that would grade 9 and 10, but for now it's raw. Some sets, like 84 donruss, I am building slabbed and raw.

purelyPSA

I see eBay's rise as almost irrelevent in terms of the hobby itself

I absolutely disagree with that sentiment. It's destroyed 90% of the store front card shops that were in existence. As a seller, you either go online or die these days. Part of me thinks that's a good thing, because I'm exposed to stuff I'd never see in any given shop, but the personal contact is way down, and that's a shame.

scottsusor

<< <i>I see eBay's rise as almost irrelevent in terms of the hobby itself

I absolutely disagree with that sentiment. It's destroyed 90% of the store front card shops that were in existence. As a seller, you either go online or die these days. Part of me thinks that's a good thing, because I'm exposed to stuff I'd never see in any given shop, but the personal contact is way down, and that's a shame. >>



PurelyPSA,

I need to clarify. What I meant by "irrelevent in terms of the hobby itself" is only that the "buy and sell" shifted to a different venue. You're right that the internet (and eBay is part of that) was/is a big reason that store fronts started to disappear, and continue to disappear. My point however, was that most of these store fronts weren't around before the 1980's -- and the hobby was fine without them. Its probably going to be fine without them now.

As for personal contact, you have a point. Store fronts became almost barber shop-like as a place for local collectors to hang out. The internet doesn't provide for such personal contact. But isn't that more of a reflection of how society has changed overall? We can't seem to talk with our neighbors but we spend a lot of time emailing with people on the other side of the country or even the world. The stores died for several reasons -- the internet was only one of them. Maybe they weren't really delivering what people wanted and needed.

Scott

Fabfrank

Great post Scott. I'm 41 years old and your whole time line of the hobby was like a walk down memory lane.
Card stores were going out of business before Ebay came about. I think that Ebay just became the final nail in the coffin for a lot of these businesses. What I noticed is that the few dealers that are still in business have found a niche. Not every dealer can stock every new product, as well as vintage, as well as graded, as well commons, as well as autographs and memoribilia, etc. I have one dealer who only breaks down baseball. He works out of a flea market 3 days a week. He breaks down every baseball product and makes sets, team sets, and offers singles, inserts, etc. The other dealers at the flea market complain they don't make any money. He doesn't complain. He found his niche and markets it well.
I believe that will be the key for a dealers to survive. Either find a niche and focus on that or offer everything but be organized. Combine these two strategies with Ebay, web site and a physical location and you could have a successful business model.