<< <i>Mr Orlando...I realize this is a PSA board and you want to protect the PSA name. However, this board is more often used to slam your competitors, than serving as an anti-PSA forum. This board (even with the occasional criticism of your company) serves as a promotion tool for you and the company you represent.
In all honesty, I consider your actions childish (like a child who takes his ball and goes home and kicks everyone out of his back yard) and not those of a President. Leadership starts at the top...and your actions are not the actions of a professional, organizational climate. >>
Grillo,
The way I see it Joe is not a person who actively participates on these boards so I really have no idea what his side of the story is. On the surface I agree with your statements above but I the opinions of some collectors on these boards enough not to spite myself by not participating. I don't agree with Joe's actions and he can ban me if he so chooses, but I won't quit
I'm not going to dwell on this issue any longer or bad talk anyone involved. It's out of our control.
Tom Papa
There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness"
Since GAI doesn't have a message board, I have to assume that you feel SGC's message board is God's gift to card collectors. If you think the SGC board doesn't have occasions where "posters are treated unfairly, threads removed, or rules allowed to be broken based upon a allegiance to a grading company, and can't have an honest discussion about cards, card grading, etc" you are just as out of touch with reality as davalillo. Of course, it's ok for Jim to be out of touch because he has more money and graded cards than you.
I appreciate your taking the time to address this censorship and appreciate the stance that PSA and yourself have taken.While I agree that it is your right as the owners of this board,I do wonder about the subjectivity of the response.I do have a few questions,or dilemas,as it may be.
1) If you perceive Davalillo as always bashing PSA,please state the ground rules as to what exactly is "PSA bashing" as I am not sure which questions that I can ask and still remain a part of this board.
2)If you feel that Davalillos expulsion was so important that you needed to create a thread,WHEN will you author a thread that will clarify the glaring question that will not go away? WIWAG.......
3)When are you going to start policing these boards with regards to the people that are constantly posting personal attacks?
4)If I step over the line with regards to "PSA bashing",will I be warned and if so,how many times?
5)Was Davalillo given warnings as to his potential demise on these boards?
6) You stated that "Davalillo was disrespectful to some on the boards".Does that mean that you have also warned those that were disrespectful to him?
For the record:
Although I have never met Jim,I see both positive and negative with his posts.I do see him pushing the envelope with regards to PSA,but I also see a genuine concern as to the health and longevity of a company that he has a great deal of investment in.I cannot remember him stating that PSA is a bad company or authoring a thread telling people to use another company.I see him asking the hard questions and bringing up issues that might not be 100% correct.Is there anyone among us that hasn't brought up a subject(or a few subjects),that weren't entirely 100% correct. It does seem that he brought up the 1/2 point grading thread,which caused such a backlash on the boards that PSA decided to shelve the issue.For all the debate on this issue,wasn't that a positive step for PSA?
I am a very small collector who does not submit very often and sincerely hope that I haven't offended you or PSA as I enjoy being an active member of these boards.I do however,find censorship to be a bad thing when I perceive it to be a final act without an amicable resolution.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Vic Garvin (the .0001 of 1%)
Please be kind to me. Even though I'm now a former postal employee, I'm still capable of snapping at any time.
<< <i>However, I no longer want to participate in a board where posters are treated unfairly, threads removed, or rules allowed to be broken based upon a allegiance to a grading company, and can't have an honest discussion about cards, card grading, etc. >>
Grilloj39,
It is very respectable of you to take this stance and to permanently leave these boards.
You can tell a lot about a person by whether he keeps his word. There have been others who have said they would leave, but only some people are men of their words. Here are two examples:
1) Solomon Kramer wrote his farewell speech to his CU forum friends. True to his word, Crazy Sol never posted here again. I have great respect for Crazy Sol because is a man with honor and a man who keeps his word.
2) Jim Crandell not long afterwards also wrote that he would no longer post on the CU forums. Unlike Crazy Sol, Davalillo decided that it was ok to go back on his words. He felt that it was more important to push his agenda than to keep his promise. I do not know Davalillo personally so I can only judge the man by his actions. This instance where he went back on his words sticks out in my mind.
There is a minority that say that despite his arrogance and his large ego, Jim Crandell is actually a good person. Well, where I come from good people do not go back on their words.
I am sure that this is a decision in which you have given much thought. While I don't always agree with everything that you say, I respect you as a man of honor and a man of your words and I respect this decision to leave these boards permanently. Best of luck to you.
I went to the SGC board for the first time...the posts tell you all you need to know, they are predominantly focused on PSA bashing, not only bashing the grading company for its quality control but also bashing us, the collectors, for buying PSA graded cards and paying a premium for them.
Joe Orlando should be flattered by this...the fact that his competitors boards are filled w/ such venom against PSA is evidence enough of PSA's dominant market position. Sorry to those that bet on SGC etc., they have great black holders but the verdict has already been rendered...SGC lost the war, and the fact that SGC cards sell for massive discounts to PSA graded cards tell the whole tale.
Honestly, as a PSA collector it never occurred to me to lash out at those who choose to collect cards in other holders...but that's because I feel secure in the knowledge that Ive made the right choice as far as my cards are concerned. The fact that the SGC board has so many negative posts tells me that SGC collectors arent going to bed at night w/ the same sense of security about their collections.
Have you ever posted anything on here that was positive? Every single post I've seen you put on these boards is overflowing with bile. I don't know what the problem is but I see you as a bigger obstacle to a well thought out and discussed thread than anyone else. Lighten up.
<< <i>I went to the SGC board for the first time...the posts tell you all you need to know, they are predominantly focused on PSA bashing, not only bashing the grading company for its quality control but also bashing us, the collectors, for buying PSA graded cards and paying a premium for them. >>
Yep, EO, I also noticed this when I first started checking out the Network54 vintage cards forum. You'll find some good threads there, but you'll also find a strange anti-PSA sentiment among many people over there (not everyone, though). It's as if they feel that crusading against PSA will somehow devalue PSA graded cards, and, in turn, raise the value of their non-PSA graded cards.
Regarding Dav--
Still think he should be allowed to post here, but I can also respect Joe's decision to ban him. Thanks, Joe, for taking the time to comment.
Now where are we gonna get all our drama? Oh yeah, WIWAG! So, Joe, care to share the details yet? Or are you not able to comment? (thanks for your time)
OK here is a good example for you Davalillo backers that are screaming "Freedom of Speech!"
Go buy a ticket for a trip on a major Airline (Delta, American, etc) and then do several things in order to exercise your FREEDOM OF SPEECH about THEIR company!
1) when they ask if you packed your own bag, say "That is none of your damn business! I am one of your biggest customer so you need not worry about that!
2) when they ask if anyone has had access to your bag, say I don't think so, but then again I have so many employees that work for me... how should I know?"
3) when security says to empty your pockets, say "I do not really think that what you are doing is the BEST way to actually CATCH anyone that REALLY wants to get a bomb onboard one of your woefully unsecured planes!"
4) when you are getting on the plane and the person takes you ticket, say "I am so surprised that this plane is actually going to fly today! I have a "VERY RELIABLE SOURCE" that tells me that this company is doing security ALL WRONG and is ignoring all the important areas where Terrorists could EASILY Infiltrate and attack!"
5) then when you take your seat on the plane, turn to the people around you and in a very loud voice say, "I hear that this airline SUCKS at screening baggage and that a Person I KNOW OF that works for them recently told me that THEY ARE CONSIDERING doing half-point checks on the bags in order to save money! THAT IS WHAT I HEARD AND I THINK IT IS TERRIBLE for any company to Treat it's customers that way!
6) and last, as they are carting you off in handcuffs to the nearest prison, say "I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THIS AIRLINE HAS NOT ONCE REFUTED MY CLAIMS!! THEY MUST BE TRUE!! SEE HOW SMART AND IMPORTANT I AM!!!!!!!!
Is this example really very far fetched?
I say, at least Joe has not sued Jim for slander or libel. (yet)
<< <i> I say, at least Joe has not sued Jim for slander or libel. (yet) >>
BKAH: Though we are often on the same page about things -- are you truly utilizing a legal definition of slander or libel? If so, can you point out what he said that was slanderous or libelous?
I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
<< <i>The fact that the SGC board has so many negative posts tells me that SGC collectors arent going to bed at night w/ the same sense of security about their collections. >>
EO,
Don't get too excited. I will sleep like a rock tonight and God willing every night.
mikeschmidt, I was going my Joe's own comments in his initial post. "We just will not tolerate PSA "bashing" - especially where someone is constantly making up ridiculous stories and spreading false rumor for the sole purpose of harming our brand."
which he could sue for libel if written or slander if said...
would he win, maybe or maybe not.... I have not seen and/or heard all that Joe obviously has.
Thanks for the post. I've had many thousands of cards graded by your company. Over 7k at least with thousands more to come. I don't call you. You don't call me. I don't want to meet you and you don’t want to meet me. I don't ask for favors. I have yet to find a reason to talk to your employees. I send in my cards you grade them and that’s it. I don't know who this Davalillo is but he should learn some respect. All I care about is that I don't have to read about his "100 sets in PSA 8 or better" anymore. Frankly who gives a f()(k, 8's are a dime a dozen. I've got boxes of them I can't get $9.99 for. Good riddance.
Wow! After reading youarecaught's latest post I might sleep even better knowing my support for Jim keeps me out of favor with some of the great minds here.
Agreed. I went overboard. My point is that it getting cards graded is not life or death. If he could step back and chill out all would be better. Also your right about the pre68 8's for 9.99, I was exaggerating. I think he is looking for back slaps and praise from PSA for being a big customer. I and many others have had many thousands of PSA cards graded, some of us more than him and yet we find a way to keep to our selves. He should try it.
I have to agree with Joe. I have run into many people, mostly dealers in the early days of PSA, that think they are God's gift to the sports card world. They would speak as if PSA owed them something and they were not going to tolerate bad grades and slow turnarounds. Many of those same people sell almost entirely BGS or SGC cards nowadays. I'm guessing that's because PSA told them to stick their cards and they aren't allowed to submit anymore. In all honesty, PSA has made a lot of people, a lot of money. Plus they have provided a huge service to many collectors. Just because PSA isn't perfect, it doesn't mean that a person should bash them to no end. I've had times where I know PSA has messed up but I accept it as human error and move on. Once I had a card come back trimmed that I opened myself from a rack pack. I could have easily made very negative post bashing the heck out of the person that did that and started name calling. Instead I realized that **** happens and I appriciate the fact that they are doing their best not to let trimmed cards slip through. There are mistakes here and there by all of us but overall, PSA has done a good job.
<< <i>Here is the REAL question: Is ANYONE here going to "quit using PSA" or "Switch all their cards to GAI or SGC" just because a self-righteous, pompous, ego maniac like Davalillo got himself kicked off these PRIVATELY OPERATED, company-owned boards by acting like a jackass?
Here is the TRUE Answer: NO! In fact, I bet No one will care about this in a few weeks, except a few trolls that just like to drudge up the past to start fights. >>
Actually, BKAH, I joined last summer, did my initial round of submissions, then learned of WIWAG. I have waited and waited for PSA to make any kind of statements about what actually happened, what to look for, etc. Nothing came from PSA, but I continued to read material here, at SGC, on network54, and so forth, about the whole WIWAG problem.
As a new customer, my confidence in the product was immediately shaken. I have not submitted a follow-up order to PSA yet, because Joe does not seem to want to address the issues that have been raised. In fact, when a vocal customer of PSA continually posts about problems because he wants the company to improve so that his collection will retain its value (and let's face it, that's what a lot of Jim's arguments bottom-line at), the end result is that he gets banned from the boards.
Have I read a lot here on the boards? Absolutely. Have I also read things written by Wentz and BOTN/Greg in other places? Yup. Do I believe everything that I read? Absolutely not.
But here's the thing.
As a customer, even a small one, I believe that I deserve answers if I'm going to give someone my money. I've seen a lot of questions, but not a lot of answers from Joe or anyone else in charge. Maybe it is the case that there were very few cards swapped into holders by WIWAG. I don't know that, because I can't find definitive statements from PSA about numbers. Maybe it's also the case that WIWAG didn't have access to fresh PSA slabs, and weren't slabbing their own cards. I don't know that either, because PSA hasn't ever denied MW's (or is it BOTN's? I can't tell those two apart, sometimes) claim that this was happening as well. And it doesn't strike me as that difficult to say, "This wasn't being done."
I think PSA has been good for the hobby. I do. I believe they can continue to be good for the hobby. But their unwillingness to discuss issues like WIWAG shook my faith when I decided to start doing graded cards rather than raw, and I haven't seen anything to restore it.
If all of this seems somewhat tangential to Jim's being banned, that's because it kind of is. But it also isn't. It's all communication issues. If I start seeing more meaningful communication from PSA, then I'll have a reason to start submitting more of my cards. If, on the other hand, I just see more of the same, then I guess when my year's membership expires, I'll take my business elsewhere. I think a year is more than a fair amount of time to give them.
Morrie ...guy who doesn't know Jim, or Joe, or probably anyone else on the boards, and just wants to enjoy his cards...
I've read Davalillo's threads, and I certainly felt he could have used some tact in his approach. Can't say I agreed with him all the time. Can't say he is a nice guy or not, never met him. But, I also can't say that what he has said warrants a ban. Love him or hate him, he got things movin' on these boards... My opinion is that if Joe wanted to address this issue, he should have kept trying to work with Dav on their disagreements. It should not be a public thing, it is between the two of them. Now, the only thing to read on the boards is their feud, not the hobby. That, to me, is the real crime here...
Keep in mind, if you (anyone out there) didn't like what he had to say, all you had to do is just not read it...
BigKidAtHeart, Jim has posted his friend/buddy list across the street and i see that your not on the list!!! How do you expect to get on Jim's buddy list AKA "serious collectors" list if you keep making post like the one's above?
Im not on his buddy list ether and last night i cried myself to sleep.
<< <i>BigKidAtHeart, Jim has posted his friend/buddy list across the street and i see that your not on the list!!! How do you expect to get on Jim's buddy list AKA "serious collectors" list if you keep making post like the one's above?
Im not on his buddy list ether and last night i cried myself to sleep.
Paul. >>
Paul,
This is not a him against us situation. I'm on the "buddy list" as a Crandall supporter so does that make me some kind of outcast?
I honestly think most of you Crandall haters can't see past the personality issues you all have with Jim. I include Joe O. in this group. To say Jim is a "PSA basher" has got to be one of the most ignorant view points I've heard thus far. Jim points out issues (in his mind) he see's because he wants them to be resolved for PSA's improvement. The group may not like his methods but does that make him a PSA basher? Hardly. Jim has more invested in PSA's success than 99.9% of the post'ers on this board. He's not a stupid man. He wants PSA to succeed.
As far as the comments "I'm sick of hearing about 100 sets at PSA 8". Well...that's just flat out jealousy speaking. We'd all love to have the resources to pull this off.
I support Jim Crandall for two reasons. #1 - In the end, he wants to better PSA. Maybe he just needs to appraoch it differently. #2 - Banning Jim is the ridiculous result of a fude that has been brewing between Jim and Joe for a while. They're both frustrated and have tremendous ego's (as do all of us). It's a childish act to handle the situation the way they are.
They need to be examples for Palestine and Israel by sitting face-to-face in a stripper bar and have a few drinks. No two people can hold a grudge with naked chicks dancing on them.
There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness"
<< <i>BoSox - Have you been reading the posts from across the street? I'm not sure the stuff about wanting PSA to be a better company rings true anymore... >>
Yes, I have. In fact, I've posted across the street myself. Anything posted there in the past two days I've discounted and chaulked up to "puffing". People are just pissed at this point. In a few days or weeks Jim will calm down and make the right "business" decision. The only right answer there is to stay with PSA.
My comments about making PSA a better company refer to past days and months on this board. Again, Jim want(ed)/(s) PSA to succeed.
There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness"
i totally agree with gosoxbosox! love him or hate him he was trying to inform us the collecting public about whats going on at psa! does that make him a psa basher? i never did like jim's delivery but he did try to keep us informed! i'm still waiting for the new and improved more secure holder that has been swept under the rug and nobody talks about?i don't think that jim is looking for any deals because he can submit through his dealer for less than us!i think jim wants cards like the rest of us and nothing else but maybe some info with whats going on behind the scenes! i think we all deserve that if anything!
thank Joe, YES , Jim did go overboard at times and he reported from his "quality" sources but we are all still missing the BIG picture. If the issues he reported on were addressed head on and openly then there would be no reason for the rumors.
example 1 1/2 point grading - Jim started the rumor and presented it to stir the pot but it was on the agenda at PSA. if this was addressed from PSA then we would not have needed the rumor.
example 2 Experienced grader is fired. This was a non issue . jim was wrong. it was a decision made by PSA after they hopefully looked at all the facts. that is what we pay them to do. Make decisions that will maintain their brand name and be a viable long term company!
example 3 WIWAG ? - nobody still knows and even though Jim has been banned it is always going to be an issue until everyone on the board has been banned for asking the facts. It will always be a rumor of one collectors estimates vs. another
I don't have the investment or collection that others have here and I am not going to lose any sleep over this. I am not going to go to another company because of political issues, the facts still remail that PSA is the strongest grading company by far. Even Jim recognizes this and he just wants PSA to remain that way. I collect and I like the cards. i will always like the cards! I sell when I can pick up stuff thats in demand that I don't collect but i know others would like to have. I recognize the "current" value of psa holders and suspect there will always be premium for the "cards" in the holders as high grade cards will always be high grade.
The whole fact of the matter is that Joe would rather eliminate Jim from this board and keep him from bringing to light REAL issues that PSA (Joe) needs to address, but can't or will not. It's much easier to sweep something under the rug than deal with it head on.
It's not hard to see why Jim was bringing these issues up. He had a strong collective interest in his PSA cards and wanted to protect them. Maybe he couldn't get answers from Joe personally so he had to go other routes like posting on PSA's message boards to try to put pressure on management to respond. I would pretty much guarantee the last thing Jim wanted to do was bash PSA to the point where it would hurt the value of his PSA investment. I am sure Jim had more invested in PSA than a majority of the stockholders in Collectors Universe, but you can bet if some of the stockholders asked these questions they would be responded to quite quickly.
PSA has let this WIGWAG thing linger on without ever making a statement. If you can't talk about legally, well come on here and say that, but when you just keep quiet and let peoples minds wonder on why your so quiet this is what you get. Far be it from PSA to ever come on here and give a little peace of mind to their customers.
Comments
<< <i>Mr Orlando...I realize this is a PSA board and you want to protect the PSA name. However, this board is more often used to slam your competitors, than serving as an anti-PSA forum. This board (even with the occasional criticism of your company) serves as a promotion tool for you and the company you represent.
In all honesty, I consider your actions childish (like a child who takes his ball and goes home and kicks everyone out of his back yard) and not those of a President. Leadership starts at the top...and your actions are not the actions of a professional, organizational climate. >>
Grillo,
The way I see it Joe is not a person who actively participates on these boards so I really have no idea what his side of the story is. On the surface I agree with your statements above but I the opinions of some collectors on these boards enough not to spite myself by not participating. I don't agree with Joe's actions and he can ban me if he so chooses, but I won't quit
I'm not going to dwell on this issue any longer or bad talk anyone involved. It's out of our control.
Tom Papa
Since GAI doesn't have a message board, I have to assume that you feel SGC's message board is God's gift to card collectors. If you think the SGC board doesn't have occasions where "posters are treated unfairly, threads removed, or rules allowed to be broken based upon a allegiance to a grading company, and can't have an honest discussion about cards, card grading, etc" you are just as out of touch with reality as davalillo. Of course, it's ok for Jim to be out of touch because he has more money and graded cards than you.
Joe,
I appreciate your taking the time to address this censorship and appreciate the stance that PSA and yourself have taken.While I agree that it is your right as the owners of this board,I do wonder about the subjectivity of the response.I do have a few questions,or dilemas,as it may be.
1) If you perceive Davalillo as always bashing PSA,please state the ground rules as to what exactly is "PSA bashing" as I am not sure which questions that I can ask and still remain a part of this board.
2)If you feel that Davalillos expulsion was so important that you needed to create a thread,WHEN will you author a thread that will clarify the glaring question that will not go away? WIWAG.......
3)When are you going to start policing these boards with regards to the people that are constantly posting personal attacks?
4)If I step over the line with regards to "PSA bashing",will I be warned and if so,how many times?
5)Was Davalillo given warnings as to his potential demise on these boards?
6) You stated that "Davalillo was disrespectful to some on the boards".Does that mean that you have also warned those that were disrespectful to him?
For the record:
Although I have never met Jim,I see both positive and negative with his posts.I do see him pushing the envelope with regards to PSA,but I also see a genuine concern as to the health and longevity of a company that he has a great deal of investment in.I cannot remember him stating that PSA is a bad company or authoring a thread telling people to use another company.I see him asking the hard questions and bringing up issues that might not be 100% correct.Is there anyone among us that hasn't brought up a subject(or a few subjects),that weren't entirely 100% correct. It does seem that he brought up the 1/2 point grading thread,which caused such a backlash on the boards that PSA decided to shelve the issue.For all the debate on this issue,wasn't that a positive step for PSA?
I am a very small collector who does not submit very often and sincerely hope that I haven't offended you or PSA as I enjoy being an active member of these boards.I do however,find censorship to be a bad thing when I perceive it to be a final act without an amicable resolution.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Vic Garvin (the .0001 of 1%)
<< <i>However, I no longer want to participate in a board where posters are treated unfairly, threads removed, or rules allowed to be broken based upon a allegiance to a grading company, and can't have an honest discussion about cards, card grading, etc.
>>
Grilloj39,
It is very respectable of you to take this stance and to permanently leave these boards.
You can tell a lot about a person by whether he keeps his word. There have been others who have said they would leave, but only some people are men of their words. Here are two examples:
1) Solomon Kramer wrote his farewell speech to his CU forum friends. True to his word, Crazy Sol never posted here again. I have great respect for Crazy Sol because is a man with honor and a man who keeps his word.
2) Jim Crandell not long afterwards also wrote that he would no longer post on the CU forums. Unlike Crazy Sol, Davalillo decided that it was ok to go back on his words. He felt that it was more important to push his agenda than to keep his promise. I do not know Davalillo personally so I can only judge the man by his actions. This instance where he went back on his words sticks out in my mind.
There is a minority that say that despite his arrogance and his large ego, Jim Crandell is actually a good person. Well, where I come from good people do not go back on their words.
I am sure that this is a decision in which you have given much thought. While I don't always agree with everything that you say, I respect you as a man of honor and a man of your words and I respect this decision to leave these boards permanently. Best of luck to you.
Koby
I don't think that what you said could have been put any better!
Wayne
Joe Orlando should be flattered by this...the fact that his competitors boards are filled w/ such venom against PSA is evidence enough of PSA's dominant market position. Sorry to those that bet on SGC etc., they have great black holders but the verdict has already been rendered...SGC lost the war, and the fact that SGC cards sell for massive discounts to PSA graded cards tell the whole tale.
Honestly, as a PSA collector it never occurred to me to lash out at those who choose to collect cards in other holders...but that's because I feel secure in the knowledge that Ive made the right choice as far as my cards are concerned. The fact that the SGC board has so many negative posts tells me that SGC collectors arent going to bed at night w/ the same sense of security about their collections.
EO
Wayne
Wayne-try stamps they're out of favor and cheap right now.
I have no idea what in the world you're talking about. And while we're talking, money is not your ticket to freedom.
Wayne
Have you ever posted anything on here that was positive? Every single post I've seen you put on these boards is overflowing with bile. I don't know what the problem is but I see you as a bigger obstacle to a well thought out and discussed thread than anyone else. Lighten up.
<< <i>I went to the SGC board for the first time...the posts tell you all you need to know, they are predominantly focused on PSA bashing, not only bashing the grading company for its quality control but also bashing us, the collectors, for buying PSA graded cards and paying a premium for them. >>
Yep, EO, I also noticed this when I first started checking out the
Network54 vintage cards forum. You'll find some good threads there,
but you'll also find a strange anti-PSA sentiment among many people
over there (not everyone, though). It's as if they feel that crusading
against PSA will somehow devalue PSA graded cards, and, in turn, raise
the value of their non-PSA graded cards.
Regarding Dav--
Still think he should be allowed to post here, but I can also respect
Joe's decision to ban him. Thanks, Joe, for taking the time to comment.
Now where are we gonna get all our drama?
Oh yeah, WIWAG! So, Joe, care to share the details yet? Or are you
not able to comment? (thanks for your time)
Davalillo backers that are screaming
"Freedom of Speech!"
Go buy a ticket for a trip on a major Airline
(Delta, American, etc) and then do several things
in order to exercise your FREEDOM OF SPEECH
about THEIR company!
1) when they ask if you packed your own bag,
say "That is none of your damn business! I am one of
your biggest customer so you need not worry about that!
2) when they ask if anyone has had access to your bag,
say I don't think so, but then again I have so many
employees that work for me... how should I know?"
3) when security says to empty your pockets,
say "I do not really think that what you are doing is
the BEST way to actually CATCH anyone that REALLY
wants to get a bomb onboard one of your woefully
unsecured planes!"
4) when you are getting on the plane and the person
takes you ticket, say "I am so surprised that this plane
is actually going to fly today! I have a "VERY RELIABLE SOURCE"
that tells me that this company is doing security ALL WRONG
and is ignoring all the important areas where Terrorists
could EASILY Infiltrate and attack!"
5) then when you take your seat on the plane, turn to the
people around you and in a very loud voice say,
"I hear that this airline SUCKS at screening baggage
and that a Person I KNOW OF that works for them
recently told me that THEY ARE CONSIDERING doing
half-point checks on the bags in order to save
money! THAT IS WHAT I HEARD AND I THINK IT IS
TERRIBLE for any company to Treat it's customers that way!
6) and last, as they are carting you off in handcuffs
to the nearest prison, say
"I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THIS AIRLINE HAS NOT
ONCE REFUTED MY CLAIMS!! THEY MUST BE TRUE!!
SEE HOW SMART AND IMPORTANT I AM!!!!!!!!
Is this example really very far fetched?
I say, at least Joe has not sued Jim for slander or libel.
(yet)
<< <i>
I say, at least Joe has not sued Jim for slander or libel.
(yet) >>
BKAH: Though we are often on the same page about things -- are you truly utilizing a legal definition of slander or libel? If so, can you point out what he said that was slanderous or libelous?
<< <i>The fact that the SGC board has so many negative posts tells me that SGC collectors arent going to bed at night w/ the same sense of security about their collections. >>
EO,
Don't get too excited. I will sleep like a rock tonight and God willing every night.
Sweet dreams!
aconte
I was going my Joe's own comments in his
initial post.
"We just will not tolerate PSA "bashing" -
especially where someone is constantly
making up ridiculous stories and spreading
false rumor for the sole purpose of harming our brand."
which he could sue for libel if written or slander if said...
would he win, maybe or maybe not.... I have not seen
and/or heard all that Joe obviously has.
~jeff
I hope cooler heads will prevail with Jim and Joe finally discussing their differences in a professional and timely matter.
John
<< <i>Frankly who gives a f()(k, 8's are a dime a dozen. I've got boxes of them I can't get $9.99 for. >>
Jim collects pre-1968 sets.....if you have time...please email me a list 8's from those years that you cannot get rid of for $9.99.
for Jim keeps me out of favor with some of the great minds here.
Good night....
aconte
I have to agree with Joe. I have run into many people, mostly dealers in the early days of PSA, that think they are God's gift to the sports card world. They would speak as if PSA owed them something and they were not going to tolerate bad grades and slow turnarounds. Many of those same people sell almost entirely BGS or SGC cards nowadays. I'm guessing that's because PSA told them to stick their cards and they aren't allowed to submit anymore. In all honesty, PSA has made a lot of people, a lot of money. Plus they have provided a huge service to many collectors. Just because PSA isn't perfect, it doesn't mean that a person should bash them to no end. I've had times where I know PSA has messed up but I accept it as human error and move on. Once I had a card come back trimmed that I opened myself from a rack pack. I could have easily made very negative post bashing the heck out of the person that did that and started name calling. Instead I realized that **** happens and I appriciate the fact that they are doing their best not to let trimmed cards slip through. There are mistakes here and there by all of us but overall, PSA has done a good job.
<< <i>Here is the REAL question:
Is ANYONE here going to "quit using PSA"
or "Switch all their cards to GAI or SGC" just because
a self-righteous, pompous, ego maniac like Davalillo got
himself kicked off these PRIVATELY OPERATED, company-owned
boards by acting like a jackass?
Here is the TRUE Answer:
NO! In fact, I bet No one will care about this
in a few weeks, except a few trolls that just like
to drudge up the past to start fights. >>
Actually, BKAH, I joined last summer, did my initial round of submissions, then learned of WIWAG. I have waited and waited for PSA to make any kind of statements about what actually happened, what to look for, etc. Nothing came from PSA, but I continued to read material here, at SGC, on network54, and so forth, about the whole WIWAG problem.
As a new customer, my confidence in the product was immediately shaken. I have not submitted a follow-up order to PSA yet, because Joe does not seem to want to address the issues that have been raised. In fact, when a vocal customer of PSA continually posts about problems because he wants the company to improve so that his collection will retain its value (and let's face it, that's what a lot of Jim's arguments bottom-line at), the end result is that he gets banned from the boards.
Have I read a lot here on the boards? Absolutely. Have I also read things written by Wentz and BOTN/Greg in other places? Yup. Do I believe everything that I read? Absolutely not.
But here's the thing.
As a customer, even a small one, I believe that I deserve answers if I'm going to give someone my money. I've seen a lot of questions, but not a lot of answers from Joe or anyone else in charge. Maybe it is the case that there were very few cards swapped into holders by WIWAG. I don't know that, because I can't find definitive statements from PSA about numbers. Maybe it's also the case that WIWAG didn't have access to fresh PSA slabs, and weren't slabbing their own cards. I don't know that either, because PSA hasn't ever denied MW's (or is it BOTN's? I can't tell those two apart, sometimes) claim that this was happening as well. And it doesn't strike me as that difficult to say, "This wasn't being done."
I think PSA has been good for the hobby. I do. I believe they can continue to be good for the hobby. But their unwillingness to discuss issues like WIWAG shook my faith when I decided to start doing graded cards rather than raw, and I haven't seen anything to restore it.
If all of this seems somewhat tangential to Jim's being banned, that's because it kind of is. But it also isn't. It's all communication issues. If I start seeing more meaningful communication from PSA, then I'll have a reason to start submitting more of my cards. If, on the other hand, I just see more of the same, then I guess when my year's membership expires, I'll take my business elsewhere. I think a year is more than a fair amount of time to give them.
Morrie
...guy who doesn't know Jim, or Joe, or probably anyone else on the boards, and just wants to enjoy his cards...
I've read Davalillo's threads, and I certainly felt he could have used some tact in his approach. Can't say I agreed with him all the time. Can't say he is a nice guy or not, never met him. But, I also can't say that what he has said warrants a ban. Love him or hate him, he got things movin' on these boards... My opinion is that if Joe wanted to address this issue, he should have kept trying to work with Dav on their disagreements. It should not be a public thing, it is between the two of them. Now, the only thing to read on the boards is their feud, not the hobby. That, to me, is the real crime here...
Keep in mind, if you (anyone out there) didn't like what he had to say, all you had to do is just not read it...
BigKidAtHeart, Jim has posted his friend/buddy list across the street and i see that your not on the list!!! How do you expect to get on Jim's buddy list AKA "serious collectors" list if you keep making post like the one's above?
Im not on his buddy list ether and last night i cried myself to sleep.
Paul.
<< <i>BigKidAtHeart, Jim has posted his friend/buddy list across the street and i see that your not on the list!!! How do you expect to get on Jim's buddy list AKA "serious collectors" list if you keep making post like the one's above?
Im not on his buddy list ether and last night i cried myself to sleep.
Paul. >>
Paul,
This is not a him against us situation. I'm on the "buddy list" as a Crandall supporter so does that make me some kind of outcast?
I honestly think most of you Crandall haters can't see past the personality issues you all have with Jim. I include Joe O. in this group. To say Jim is a "PSA basher" has got to be one of the most ignorant view points I've heard thus far. Jim points out issues (in his mind) he see's because he wants them to be resolved for PSA's improvement. The group may not like his methods but does that make him a PSA basher? Hardly. Jim has more invested in PSA's success than 99.9% of the post'ers on this board. He's not a stupid man. He wants PSA to succeed.
As far as the comments "I'm sick of hearing about 100 sets at PSA 8". Well...that's just flat out jealousy speaking. We'd all love to have the resources to pull this off.
I support Jim Crandall for two reasons. #1 - In the end, he wants to better PSA. Maybe he just needs to appraoch it differently. #2 - Banning Jim is the ridiculous result of a fude that has been brewing between Jim and Joe for a while. They're both frustrated and have tremendous ego's (as do all of us). It's a childish act to handle the situation the way they are.
They need to be examples for Palestine and Israel by sitting face-to-face in a stripper bar and have a few drinks. No two people can hold a grudge with naked chicks dancing on them.
BoSox - Have you been reading the posts from across the street? I'm not sure the stuff about wanting PSA to be a better company rings true anymore...
<< <i>BoSox - Have you been reading the posts from across the street? I'm not sure the stuff about wanting PSA to be a better company rings true anymore... >>
Yes, I have. In fact, I've posted across the street myself. Anything posted there in the past two days I've discounted and chaulked up to "puffing". People are just pissed at this point. In a few days or weeks Jim will calm down and make the right "business" decision. The only right answer there is to stay with PSA.
My comments about making PSA a better company refer to past days and months on this board. Again, Jim want(ed)/(s) PSA to succeed.
Maybe the Titanic wouldn't have sunk if it had missed the iceberg? Both are history now so let's get on with our lives.
<< <i>Maybe the Titanic wouldn't have sunk if it had missed the iceberg? Both are history now so let's get on with our lives. >>
Cute analogy. But the Titanic couldn't be saved once the ship sank. I believe this relationship can be saved if they would talk it out.
I value inputs of both parties around here.
does that make him a psa basher? i never did like jim's delivery but he did try to keep us informed! i'm still waiting for the new and improved more secure holder that has been swept under the rug and nobody talks about?i don't think that jim is looking for any deals because he can submit through his dealer for less than us!i think jim wants cards like the rest of us and nothing else but maybe some info with whats going on behind the scenes! i think we all deserve that if anything!
john
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
example 1
1/2 point grading - Jim started the rumor and presented it to stir the pot but it was on the agenda at PSA. if this was addressed from PSA then we would not have needed the rumor.
example 2
Experienced grader is fired. This was a non issue . jim was wrong. it was a decision made by PSA after they hopefully looked at all the facts. that is what we pay them to do. Make decisions that will maintain their brand name and be a viable long term company!
example 3
WIWAG ? - nobody still knows and even though Jim has been banned it is always going to be an issue until everyone on the board has been banned for asking the facts. It will always be a rumor of one collectors estimates vs. another
I don't have the investment or collection that others have here and I am not going to lose any sleep over this. I am not going to go to another company because of political issues, the facts still remail that PSA is the strongest grading company by far. Even Jim recognizes this and he just wants PSA to remain that way. I collect and I like the cards. i will always like the cards! I sell when I can pick up stuff thats in demand that I don't collect but i know others would like to have. I recognize the "current" value of psa holders and suspect there will always be premium for the "cards" in the holders as high grade cards will always be high grade.
happy collecting
It's over! Lets move on!
No more essays on this goofball, more card talk!
Scott
Loves me some shiny!
dave
It's not hard to see why Jim was bringing these issues up. He had a strong collective interest in his PSA cards and wanted to protect them. Maybe he couldn't get answers from Joe personally so he had to go other routes like posting on PSA's message boards to try to put pressure on management to respond. I would pretty much guarantee the last thing Jim wanted to do was bash PSA to the point where it would hurt the value of his PSA investment. I am sure Jim had more invested in PSA than a majority of the stockholders in Collectors Universe, but you can bet if some of the stockholders asked these questions they would be responded to quite quickly.
PSA has let this WIGWAG thing linger on without ever making a statement. If you can't talk about legally, well come on here and say that, but when you just keep quiet and let peoples minds wonder on why your so quiet this is what you get. Far be it from PSA to ever come on here and give a little peace of mind to their customers.
Todd