Mexico 1898 Mo Peso, 1949 restrikes

Spinynorman

The only way that I've ever seen to differentiate these is to count the beads on the reverse, 139 for the original strikes and 134 on the restrikes. I think I've found a much easier way to tell, at least I haven't seen it mentioned before and none of the dealers I've talked to about it knew what I was talking about...

Look at the position of the o in Mo on this 139 bead original strike. The top of the o is about level with the top of the M and the 1.


This is an Anacs certified restrike with 134 beads. The top of the o in Mo is much higher. (I probably should have bought this one, but the opening bid was 2x Krause)


The above characteristics have matched on all of the coins I have seen so far, except this one... It's also 134 beads, but the o is much lower. Also, the characters in the legend are a different style and the spacing is much different. Counterfeit?


Here's a restrike that I picked up today (at 60% of Krause). If any of you out there have one of these, please let me know if I'm on the right track. Thanks.

Compa

Thanks for the info. You are not being ignored, I simply don't have the Mexico City mint '98 or the restrike to compare.

shirohniichan

Does anyone know the reason for the restrikes?

shirohniichan

Oops

1jester

Excellent, informative post, Spiny!!! Thanks for the detective work.

Spinynorman

Thanks, Compa, but I didn't expect much response on this one. It's one of those things that I would expect only specific collectors and the obscurious to have any interest in.

Hi Shiroh, personally I think there is a connection between these and the 1949 restrikes of the Chinese Junk dollars in order to trade with the newly formed Peoples Republic of China, but I've never seen anything official on that. I'd like to know myself. Wanting to trade with them seems out of whack with the mood of the government towards communism at the time.

shirohniichan

I figured that they would be restruck for use in China, but I wasn't so sure they were for the PRC. Since so many people were fleeing China for Taiwan in 1949 to establish the ROC, I wondered if there was great demand for them as hard money. The Chinese were quite attached to Mexican silver coins from the time of pillar dollars, so I assumed someone wanting to business in Asia may have had a bunch of 8 reales or pesos restruck for use there.

Spinynorman

You're right. It was the ROC and not the PRC. I found a little info searching the web... TDN's site

shirohniichan

Thanks for the link. Now I feel the urge to get one of these 1949-S silver dollars.

Spinynorman

I thought that might get you.
Let me know if it's a high O, if you do get one.

shirohniichan

I have no darkside price guides with me right now. Are they expensive? Cheap? What's the CV of the restrikes vs. the originals?

I found a 1990 edition of Krause here. It lists the originals at $60 in UNC and restrikes at $40. Have prices gone up much?

Spinynorman

Those are the same prices in my 2001 Krause. Not a lot of movement on them!
I got the one above for $25. It's a decent, yet unspectacular, unc.

shirohniichan

If your coin is typical, it looks like the restrikes are better struck than the originals.

Spinynorman

How about a counterfeit restrike?

WillieBoyd2

In 1949 the San Francisco Mint restruck 2,000,000 copies of a Mexico Peso dated 1898 for use in China.

These were made for the Chiang Kai-Shek Nationalist government which had introduced a new silver-based currency.
The Nationalist's were losing the Chinese civil war to Mao Tse Tung's Communists and there was rampant inflation in the Nationalist areas.

The dollar-size Mexico silver 8 reales and peso coins were used extensively in China as "trade dollars" in the 19th and early 20th centuries, so the Chinese people and merchants were familiar with them.

The Mexico Peso restrikes have the original Mexico City mintmark "Mo" and the original Mexican assayer's initials "AM".
However, the original coin reverse has 139 beads ("denticles") around the rim while the San Francisco restrike has 131 beads.
Also it appears that the orignal coins have the tops of the "Mo" lined up and the restrikes have the "o" in "Mo" moved higher.

I am using the definition "obverse" as the side with the liberty cap and the "reverse" as the side with the Mexican eagle.
I have seen some computer bulletin board postings metioning 134 beads but I have not seen a coin or a picture with this number.

The US mints have made many coins for foreign countries, from Australia to Venezuela.
The book "Domestic and Foreign Coins Manufactured by Mints of the United States 1793-1980", published by Department of the Treasury, Bureau of the Mint, 1981, has mintage figures.

"Foreign Coins struck at United States Mints" by Charles G. Altz and E. H. Barton, published by Whitman Publishing Company, 1965, has information on these coins.
The Altz and Barton book states that only the US restrikes have the 131 beads.

I am guessing that Chiang Kai Shek's people took them with them when they fled to Taiwan, and that is how they have entered the coin markets.
Neither the original or restrike is "rare".

I paid $48 on Ebay for an uncirculated restrike from a Texas seller who did not mention the restrike status.

As I do not have an original 1898 peso, I am using a 1901 peso to illustrate the original coin.
I have seen photographs of an original 1898 and they are the same as the 1901.

I am still researching this topic, especially looking at historical works about the last days of the Chiang Kai Shek regime in 1949.
So far, I have not found any mention of these coins.

My website has more information.

nicholasz219

I don't want to violate protocol here, but I think that this thread deserves "Thread of the Day" status.

I just learned more about Mexican coinage in this thread than I ever knew.

Just a thought.

Really nice work, by the way. Now I think I might have to pick up an example too.

(Spiny, if I see you selling all of your Pesos today, I guess we know why this thread was written! )

Nick

Spinynorman

Interesting. I talked to Don Bailey at the Portland ANA (Apr 2004) about the high O and he wasn't aware of it. I sent him the info later, but never heard back from him. I don't know if it ever made it in his journal or not. So far, all of the restrikes I've come across have been the high Os, but that hasn't been many. So no, I'm not selling. In fact I'd I wouldn't mind picking up some more.

Willy, if you'd like some good micro-photos of the Os to go with that, I'd be happy to let you use them. I'd have to wait and search for them next week, though, since my post on Coinpeople.com was lost in the move.

Blackhawk

I got this one this past summer at a show for $40.00 and didn't know if it was the original or restrike...thanks for the information.

Spinynorman

Hmm... Maybe DonB never got back to me because I didn't know the obverse from the reverse. Which does it show in the Krause as the obverse? I remember the Altz and Barton book stating 131 beads, but I can't remember why I went with 134 beads (besides the obvious of having the sides mixed up). Looks like I'll have some digging to do when I get home.

oldshep

Steve - Excellent post!!! This is what this forum is noted for - great information.!!
Shep

1jester

Welcome to the forum, Willie, and thanks for the informative post.

lordmarcovan

Interesting. I was unaware of these restrikes. Knew about the little goldies, of course, but not these.

How ya been, O Spiny One?

WillieBoyd2

Blackhawk's peso looks like a restrike.

The "o" in the "Mo" is high and the reverse has 131 beads (Yes, I did count the beads).

ROBERTB

<< <i>I don't want to violate protocol here, but I think that this thread deserves "Thread of the Day" status.

I just learned more about Mexican coinage in this thread than I ever knew.

Just a thought.
>>



Seconded!!

shirohniichan

The stories behind coins like this prove there's a lot more to collecting than "Do you think it will 68 at PCGS"?

WillieBoyd2

By the way, someone is selling a PCGS MS-61 slabbed restrike on eBay.
Look for "Mexico Peso 1898".

lordmarcovan

I guess I will add a third vote to give Spiny a DPOTD.

Spinynorman

Ok, so it was the Krause that said 134 bead reverse, while the Altz and Barton book said 131. Both books picture the cap and rays side as being the revese, so I went with it being an error in the A&B book. I haven't double checked Willie's pictures yet, but it looks like on the original strikes it would be 139 obv/139 rev and on the restrikes 131 obv/134 rev.


Here are the close-up pictures of the different mintmarks which make it a little easier to see the difference.


It also says in the A&B book that this peso is the only identifiable Mexican coin as being struck by the US, but, if you take a look in the Krause at the mintage figures for the 1907 (curved 7) 20 and 50 centavos, they are the same as what the US mint struck. If they are right, then the 1907 (curved 7) 20 centavos would be the only foreign coin struck by the New Orleans mint (well, unless you count the CSA as a foreign country).

oldshep

This is definitely a DPOTD material post- I suggest it just be declared as such.!!!!
Shep

nicholasz219

Comments retracted.

Spinynorman

I'm not seeing the connection to this post, Nick, but as far as I'm concerned the SS should give them back.

DaveG

nicholasz219:

As for the 1933 Saints, it's not whether they're legal tender or not, it's that the Government says they're stolen property.

WillieBoyd2

Re: Mexican Peso from Frisco

I always assumed that the obverse was "heads", in this case the "liberty cap" and that
the reverse was "tails" which the Mexican eagle wears.
Anyway the coins I have seen have the 131 or 139 beads on the side with the eagle.

WillieBoyd2

WillieBoyd2

Mexico 1898 Peso Restrikes Graded by PCGS and ACG

An interesting note:
These two Mexico 1898 MoAM pesos were on sale on Ebay recently.
One was graded by PCGS (Professional Coin Grading Service), the other by ACG (Accugrade).
Both are 1949 restrikes, but only PCGS identified the coin as a restrike.

ACG Coin
PCGS Coin