World coin submittals ?

GOLDSAINT · February 6, 2004 9:58PM

World coin submittals

I have a trip plan to NGC in a few weeks for them to slab some of my Bust halves for my registry set. In the mid 80’s while on a tour of Europe I stopped in many towns and visited coin shops and bought some great world coins. I am sure not very rare items, but many were $50 to $200 at that time and the dollar was very strong then. Please give me some advice on what I should take to have slabbed. I think there are about 200 coins, some are ancients, but many are from Europe during the middle ages, about 30 are gold of various sizes the rest are silver in quarter to dollar size. The only book I have is an old Krause 1983 world catalog that is 2000 pages, and many are not in the book. I bought lots of weird coins, even from other countries like gold from Saudi Arabia, and coins with the Shaw of Iran. Lots of European coins from France, Germany, Austria . Gold coins with Napoleon, Charles the VI, 1380, etc etc.
I really need help here as it will cost a fortune to slab everything, and this is really not my area.

ajaan · February 6, 2004 10:01PM

Ancients - No. NGC won't do them. Middle Ages, if early Middle Ages I use ICG. Later, NGC is OK. Gold coins - I would say yes if over $100. Remember, NGC only charges $12/coin for coins valued $300 and less.

If you have any Talers, be careful of the size limitations.

GOLDSAINT · February 6, 2004 10:15PM

ajaan, What is the NGC time cut off? If they wont do ancients then do they have a time period cut off date.
Also, do you happen to know what the size limmt is? can I use a U.S. coin as a guide to gage?

JamminJ · February 7, 2004 1:33AM

<< <i>ajaan, What is the NGC time cut off? If they wont do ancients then do they have a time period cut off date.
Also, do you happen to know what the size limmt is? can I use a U.S. coin as a guide to gage? >>

I've found they will slab just about any coin struck after 1600 if they can figure out what it is. There are some guidelines on their website here, but the list is outdated due to expansion.

-JamminJ

1jester · February 7, 2004 1:36AM

I really don't have any experience in this area, but I thought I read somewhere that the upper size limit of a coin for NGC was 40 or 41mm, which would allow most Talers, but not all. Personally, I'm wondering how they determine the value limit of a coin??? Who's to say what it's worth?

Saint, I'd love to see images of those coins if you ever have time to do that. I'm also sure that I'm not the only one who would like a chance to see a mini-hoard of high quality coins such as yours!!! Congrats on the fine purchases. By the way, if you list what the coins are, even without images, some people here would be better able to guide you in your sl*bbing decision.

SYRACUSIAN · February 7, 2004 1:45AM

<< <i> Personally, I'm wondering how they determine the value limit of a coin??? Who's to say what it's worth? >>

You are. You are required to fill up a form with the coins' values. I usually put the buyprice and add a small percentage, just in case.

Tino · February 8, 2004 5:31AM

<< <i>I've found they will slab just about any coin struck after 1600 if they can figure out what it is. There are some guidelines on their website here, but the list is outdated due to expansion.

-JamminJ >>

They have done coins from the 1500's for me. NGC will certify world coins dating back to at least 1000 AD as I have seen several on Ebay from these times. I think the general rule is that if they can figure out what it is then they will certify it. Ancients are the exception, but I expect that to change in the next year or two.

ajaan · February 8, 2004 8:22AM

Yes, they will slab English coins back to William I.

GOLDSAINT · February 8, 2004 7:37PM

I will post some pics. of some of these in the next couple of days. I need to get my wife to help, as she is the only one that has this down, but here are some additional questions. First, as I look many of these up in the old world book I have I am sure many are fairly rare, but in comparison to the values of U.S. material the prices seem way down. I mean some of these gold pieces from the 16 and 1700’s should be very rare. Who had gold back then, or large silver pieces? Wow I paid over $4,000 for my 1794 Bust half in fine. Many of these coins from the 16 and 1700’s are larger and more beautiful than any U.S. coins. You would think with the Internet and the world economy that collectors around the world would be after all there countries old coins, not to mention just world collectors. Help me out here, give me the benefit of your experience, on what you believe is happening in this market and going to happen.

oldguy · February 8, 2004 7:42PM

no ngc

newsman · February 8, 2004 7:45PM

In general, gold and silver coins of the major countries of the 17th and 18th centuries are likely to be more common than early US pieces, but also cost much less because there are fewer collectors chasing more examples.

GOLDSAINT · February 8, 2004 8:01PM

newsman, so there is just not the collector base in the millions of people that live in Europe? One might think that as Europe comes together that many there would collect coins from many different countries since there ancestors had control of many different countries there during different periods. I am sure Eurpoe is being flooded with paper money just as we are in the U.S., they have also been through these paper inflation periods before. Are they just not interested in hard assets? This market should be on fire with all of the coins that are here and the strong Euro?

SYRACUSIAN · February 8, 2004 8:08PM

Some European markets are exactly as you describe them.Very strong local demand and a short supply, that has skyrocketed the prices of these low mintage coins. However there are still tremendous bargains to be had , especially in comparison with US coins.

GOLDSAINT · February 8, 2004 8:43PM

The world coin book I have I bought in the mid 80's before I wnet to Europe. It is the Krause book 1983 edition.When I looked on ebay for a new one the only one I found was a 1900 to present. Is there a new world book out that goes back to these early dates?Are there any books that have approxamate mintages and curent estimates ? What are people using to determine rarities in this area?

GOLDSAINT · February 8, 2004 9:00PM

Here is something else I think is important for this area of collecting. People like us are the hobby, and NGC as well as PCGS will respond to our requests if they believe it will help us, and their business. The people I have worked with at NGC have been very open to expanding all of our opportunities if we just ask. I have a great many raw Bust halves that I decided I wanted NGC to slab. I also wanted to put these in a registry on their site, since I had some PCGS coins and they would list both. They did not have a registry for those, but put one up within two weeks after I made a request for them to do so. As it has already been pointed out their guide lines seem to be just that. If we can show them what these coins are, I think they might slab many more of these, but we will have to do our home work. If I can track down some of these older coins I intend to take them to them to be slabbed in the next few weeks. We all know this market should be expanding along with the rest of the hard asset market, and should get better with time, but I believe that collectors and investors alike will want to know what they are buying, in particular purchasing via pictures out of auctions, so it will be important to have our collections certified.

theboz11 · February 8, 2004 9:31PM

Krause split into different Centuries a couple years ago,, Krause 19th and 20th Century Catalogs are available from the publisher and several dealers.

GOLDSAINT · February 8, 2004 10:06PM

Even though we are mostly a group of hobbists, I see no reason to be taken advantage of when buying or selling, so it is important to know our material. It seems to be much more difficult to find reasonable price quotes on many world coins, particularly in an upcoming inflation based world economy. I recieved this note from Heritage last week,
"One consignor who had previously shopped the coins to a number of dealers, having been offered up to $50,000 prior to consigning them, watched in amazement as the coins hammered down for over $171,000 plus the 15% Buyer's Premium! "

theboz11
So what I need is a new world book. Is there one out there? I am not a modern collector and 1900 and 20th century is very modern for Europe.
The old book I have is not the best since it only goes back to 1750, but it does have 1300 countries as well as 40,000 actual coins. Of the 300 odd world coins I have, dozens are from the 1200 to the 1700's.So what is out there in the way of help on these?

GOLDSAINT · February 8, 2004 11:48PM

Here are some of the coins I mentioned.
Hope you enjoy looking at them.
#1 40 franc gold ,1380-1422 ,Charles 6th
#2 2 Thaler,1711-1740, Carl 6th
#3 1 Thaler ,1705-1711 ,Joseph 1st, dated 1707

[/IMG]http://forums.collectors.com//attachments/1711dblthalerob.jpg">

">http://forums.collectors.com//attachments/1711dblthalerrev.jpg">

">http://forums.collectors.com//attachments/1707thalerob.jpg">

">http://forums.collectors.com//attachments/1707thalerrev.jpg">[IMG]

GOLDSAINT · February 9, 2004 12:34AM

and a couple more.
#1 ,1615 Thaler ,Maximilian ,1612-1618
#2 1686 Thaler ,Leopold 1st, 1657-1705

GOLDSAINT · February 9, 2004 12:50AM

lost some of the pics in translation .
Here is #2
2 Thaler, Carl 6th 1711-1740

GOLDSAINT · February 9, 2004 12:53AM

And #3
1707 Thaler, Joseph 1st ,1705-1711

cosmicdebris · February 9, 2004 1:02AM

Nice coins as for opinion on holders:

AIRTITES

theboz11 · February 9, 2004 1:36AM

Those coins look like Retirement Coins,,,,,sell a couple and Retire. WOW really Nice

CIVITAS · February 9, 2004 2:04AM

Why would you want to imprison such lovely coins?

1jester · February 9, 2004 2:23AM

"Many of these coins from the 16 and 1700’s are larger and more beautiful than any U.S. coins." --Goldsaint

....spoken like a true Darksider. Or should I say, true collector?

By the way, Saint, I think your coins are fabulous!!!! I love the French gold piece. It's these exact kinds of coins I feel will hit the big time in 5-10 years, as more people around the world, including the deep-pocketed US collectors, become familiar with them, and their rarity. I think you did great by buying these coins!

GOLDSAINT · February 9, 2004 4:34AM

I guess everyone likes these so I will post a few dozen more. I have some pictures loaded and my wife will put a few more on each day, starting this afternoon. So where can I find a book on the values and discriptions of these ?
I know I must be looking in the wrong places, but I cant find a registry for world Talers or half Talers at PCGS or NGC can somebody send me a link please.

1jester · February 9, 2004 4:37AM

I don't know of any registries yet. However, for values, I believe Krause has new editions of their World Coins Catalogs for 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. Nevertheless, that might not get you correct market values for the coins.

Please do keep showing us the pictures, though!!!!

GOLDSAINT · February 9, 2004 4:53AM

1jester, You mean there are no registries but for modern world? Help me out here, and I will contact them
about setting up one. From what little I know the Taler is what our silver dollar was modeled after right?
The half Taler was about what our half dollar is right? Are these the sizes that most world collectors collect?
I know this might be complicated for them to set up the way they have the U.S. registries but there is no reason
why there could not be a World Taler and Half Taler listing to get things kicked off, what do you all think?

1jester · February 9, 2004 5:00AM

I personally think it's a great idea for the TPGs to set up such registries; I think it would increase interest in these coins as well as increase sales for them. I think they might be too timid at present due to perceived lack of interest. It was less than a year ago that PCGS set up the British registry set, and not much earlier that they instituted the Canadian registry, if my memory serves me correctly. So it's still a virgin market.

And you're right on both counts: the Thaler being the basis for our own dollar, and its popularity throughout the centuries as currency. Not only that, the Thaler especially has enjoyed much popularity by collectors over the centuries; they are still highly sought after, and liquid.

I feel it would be great to get a Thaler registry kicked off. So far we're all pretty much neglected over here in our DARK corner of the web. But that will change over time, and it appears that you're one of the movers and shakers!!

I applaud your interest and foresight.

edit: Some of the objections I'm sure you'll hear to the idea of a registry is that world coin collectors in the US and especially overseas don't want or appreciate slabs. But that might not always be true, and is indeed changing already. I think one of the catalysts for that change is the secondary, sight-unseen (especially internet) market, and the proliferation of counterfeits. Slabs do serve a purpose, and will increase in popularity, thanks to people like Aethelred and Ajaan...

Recently, I even saw a scarce modern proof gold Polish coin for sale in a reputable old-school dealer's shop (and online inventory), and it was slabbed by NGC as PF-65. This is in Poland!! So things are indeed changing, even as we speak.

GOLDSAINT · February 9, 2004 5:14AM

Hey my friend, I am not mover and shaker, but I do have their private email addreses. I will fire off a letter to
see what they respond, and post the reply when I recieve one. I might start with NGC since I just got them to put one other in and they take both types of slabs. I will keep you posted!

spoon · February 9, 2004 5:57AM

I'll second Jester's comments on all counts.

For references, I'd recommend strolling through your local library to get a taste for things first. The Krause editions listed above are the main books for world coins, everyone around the world knows what they are. But there are, of course, several specialized books. Krause publishes a separate edition only listing gold coins, for example. But for thalers, books by Davenport are used a lot for the general market. Those should have most of what you're looking for, but beyond those there are still literally hundreds of books to choose from. BTW, coin books will be found around either the 730 section or reference section of your library.

Some things to consider regarding slabs and medieval stuff..
Yeah, some folks don't like slabs..but don't worry about that. The thing is, thalers were made by so many different kingdoms, duchies, etc that there are thousands of different types. In that group only a small percentage ever had large mintages. So that means most types may only have a handful of examples in slabs, many with only a handfull existing period. That'd be kind of hard to put into a registry. A registry could be made generic.. but then it'd wind up being more neurotic than anything. How would tabs be kept properly? There's no simple equation in this area. I think the registry idea would be cool.. but I really don't see how it could work in such a diverse field.

GOLDSAINT · February 9, 2004 7:32AM

O.K. my friends here are a few more for tonight,

1588 Christian 1V 4 marks Denmark

1628 Paris,graf,London Salzburg Taler

1729 Gold piece from the ship wreck of the Dutch ship Vliegenthart

1713 Carl V1 Taler

1581 Saxon

Fredrich August I 1695 Reichstaler Dresden

1jester · February 9, 2004 7:38AM

farthing · February 9, 2004 9:21AM

Beautiful coins!

JamminJ · February 9, 2004 1:42PM

Goldsaint, you are a kindred soul!

I really like those thalers and actually have a Salzburg Catherderal thaler and an Archduke Max in my own collection.

Welcome to the darkside!

-JamminJ

GOLDSAINT · February 9, 2004 8:12PM

Thanks for your comments. Here is part of the letter I sent to NGC yesterday. What other ideas do you have?

"Dear Mrs. Skeffington,

I have been having a discussion with several of the World coin collectors who are registered members with you and PCGS. Everyone on what they call the” Darkside” feels very slighted since there are no places for them to register their coins even in sets of Taler size and half Taler sizes. Perhaps you might look into to this or pass my letter on to your World people. You were so kind in helping to set up the Bust half registry perhaps you will help again. Please correct me if you think I am wrong but here are my arguments, the World is indeed becoming a smaller place each year. Our popular silver dollar and half dollar were modeled after the great Talers, and Half Talers, of the old Europeans. The way of the entire coin market in the future will be for collectors around the Globe to be able to purchase site unseen coins that are certified by professionals, and there is a huge untapped market for World coins if one only knew more of what they were, and where they came from. Perhaps you need an office in Germany Ha Ha. In addition to all of that as an economist I can tell you, nearly for certain, that the World as a whole will go through a long inflationary type period during the next ten years and the amount of coin collectors World wide will better than triple.

I know that it might be difficult to set up registries for so many countries so that is not what I am proposing. How about this, set up two world Taler sites on your drop down registry. One for Talers, and one for half Talers. Let any world collectors, that are your members, list any of their slabbed Talers from any country in those denominations. List both NGC and PCGS slabbed coins as you do with your other registries. Doing this, you only have to add two registries, you will help the thousands upon thousands of World collectors as a whole, and you will make lots of new money for your company from new members as well as slabbing. Please give me your thoughts on this."

Spoon, I know you are correct in your comments, but if we can get this started as a first step then perhaps adjustment can be made later. Registries like this would at least allow a place for World collectors to slab and list their items. It might not have the function of being a set contest like the other registries, but should add some credibility to this area at least the coins could be listed and graded. It seems to me as the U.S. collecting area is moving forward into the future the World collecting area is still operated the way it has been for centuries. I am sorry but I just have to laugh everytime I go to a show and see a world dealer with his huge books of coins in paper 2x2's. As all of us know many of these coins are little works of art created at times in very small amounts. Some of these coins compared to U.S. rarities are "truely rare" as you say only a handfull ever seen. So my friends I think it is time to push the envelope here. With the internet, some smart World dealer should begin to consoladate all the info. on many of these coins if they know there is real interest.It would be great to be able to go on the net and find rarites estimates and price guides on hundreds of World coins. If we can get NGC to help us with this we need to do that next.
Your suggestion about the libary is a good one, but please can we move into the modern age here! Why should collectors have to spend hours in the libary looking up every new purchase. Who has an estimate of how many World coin collectors there are on this planet?

Stork · February 9, 2004 8:31PM

<< <i>Everyone on what they call the” Darkside” feels very slighted since >>

Even the (?) big guys are using "Darkside" now....it might be in the dictionary next! Though I have little opinion on registry sets and can't add intelligently to your comments, I do appreciate the pictures! Very nice!!

Cathy

SYRACUSIAN · February 9, 2004 8:38PM

I see the point that you make and I generally agree with you.

However,I'd really be surprised to see a registry of talers and half-talers. Not only I have trouble picturing a group of coins from different countries, different weight, different size, (even if differences are small) , but NGC must have slabbed very few of these coins. The best world coin collections are outside the US and although some world collectors start embracing the slabs, the collectors of hammered coins are appalled by the idea. They have pretty good arguments for this too. Should NGC start a registry on world coins some day, it will probably be gold coins (of equal weight and size) and crowns from the 19th century and early 20th.

GOLDSAINT · February 9, 2004 11:00PM

SYRACUSIAN, "the collectors of hammered coins are appalled by the idea" I am sure you are right, in particular most dealers. I was one of those appalled by slabs for many years and have collected everything I thought interesting for 40 years, but as we all know, information is power, and if not power at least it will keep the collector from being taken advantage of. As we all know there are huge differences in just a grade or two. I have seen World coins on Ebay that were listed as VF grades that were MS60 and just had weak strikes, from being made by hand. All certified graded U.S. coins now have a premium of from 10% to 30% over their raw counterparts, and this will occur to World coins once they are commonly slabbed. Once the premium exists most collectors will opt for slabbing. I think most of us would agree that grading is an art, and the older the coin the greater the art. In my Bust half collection, many have die breaks, many have weak strikes, many are off center, and these are BU coins that I expect to be certified that way, but a new collector in front of a slick dealer might believe the story that these coins had problems and were worth a great deal less.

Who might know what this coin is?
It is marked on the 2x2 as PETERI and dated 1358

1jester · February 10, 2004 5:15AM

Saint, thanks for going ahead with the letter to Dena. She's very helpful! Moreover, I think your proposal is well-advised and very do-able. Let's hope it gets the go-ahead!

I don't know what your hammered coin is but it could be Russian.

GOLDSAINT · February 10, 2004 6:13AM

Thanks jester, Russian does look right !

coinkat · February 10, 2004 11:10AM

Goldsaint:

You posted some nice coins and some are worthy of submitting. I like the 1707 Taler... I think that one has a reasonable shot at a MS grade. I would submit that one for sure. Lower grade Talers in the VF range are probably best left raw. If you have alot of coins, I would start with those that are high quality and original. Good luck and post more pictures as time permits.

World coin submittals ?

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