O/T - Can a company be forced to go out of business?

1420sports

I am talking about PRO Grading.

This may be the wrong forum, but I figured that there are Registry members affected.

59 Mantle PSA 5

I am serious in looking into what can be done.

Fuzz

Several federal agencies have jurisdiction to shut down a business, especially one that has a business that crosses state lines.
I think however, it will be very difficult to get anyone to take action on a "judgement" call. If they publish their standards (and guarentees) and live up to them, then any case would be non-existant.
Fuzz

mikeschmidt

<< <i>I am talking about PRO Grading.

This may be the wrong forum, but I figured that there are Registry members affected.

59 Mantle PSA 5

I am serious in looking into what can be done. >>



Neal:

Here's the big problem: What exactly are they doing wrong? Does PRO grading guarantee or represent that the cards they encapsulate are original and unaltered? Many other collectibles having grading services that grade restored/altered items (although they are represented clearly as such).

Altering a card, ceteris parabis, is not illegal.

Selling an altered card also is not illegal.

Grading an altered card also is not illegal (PSA grades such cards as "authentic" sometimes, for example).

So PRO grading is in and of itself not doing anything necessarily illegal (unethical is a very different beast). Listen -- I hate PRO grading as much as the next person. Perhaps even a lot more, given my extensive background in fraud investigations and examinations. But please convince me that what they are doing is necessarily illegal. Because, unfortunately, I do not think it is.

MS

qualitycards

As usual FUZZ is correct. PRO offers an "opinion" on the card they are slabbing, they obviously do not use the same standards that PSA, SGC & GAI would use. We all know that going in, and because of this we all "proceed with caution". And all the ones who bid on a PRO card figuring that cards will crossover for the same grade will get the rude awaking that we all have at 1 time or another. I bought 1 PRO card via an auction a '66 Bob Gibson "8" 3 years ago, the scan was tiny and I took my chances, and was happy that it went for 1/3 of a PSA version. Upon closer inspection, it was trimmed on all 4 edges, and that was how I got my "education" from them. I didn't return the card, since I figured I gambled with it, and lost. Nor have I ever bid on or purchased a PRO card since...jay

1420sports

I agree that it is not illegal, although some feel that it is. It is wrong and it seems as if it is getting out of hand. I am only looking for a suggestion as to where to start.

onegaucho

How about asking the sellers of cards that this guy is placing bids on to block him from their lists? Dunno if that'll be effective since most sellers want to get the highest bids and include all available bidders.

Wayne8348

The problem isn't so much with pro as it is with the ebay sellers who represent their "pro" graded cards as being psa. That's what makes me mad.


One way around finding the pro cards on ebay is to search like this: (Assuming you want to find 1965 topps psa 9 without qualifiers


1965 topps psa 8 -oc -pro


Use that as a search on ebay on you lose all of those cards showing psa and pro in the title plus all of the oc cards (which is the most common qualifier for 65's)


I only wish pro could be forced out of business but it's kind of like appraising real estate - it's only someone's opinion.

Wayne

goodriddance189

it is illegal to alter any collectible and sell as authentic (or unaltered). what PRO is doing, whether they know the card is altered or not, is illegal. same thing as selling hot merchandise. whether or not the seller knows it's stolen is besides the point. while i doubt PRO would be found guilty in a criminal sense, i dont know. but i guarantee that if the FBI or Better Business Bureau filed charges, PRO would be f-ed in terms of financial restitution to a lot of collectors that purchased their altered crap

theBobs

What if an entity purports to be a 3rd party grading, yet is grading its own submission. Stated another way -- knowingly slabbing altered cards but giving customers the appearance that an independent 3rd party has slabbed these cards.

Marc didn’t list this scenario. Not sure if there is any potential to this line of thought...

1420sports

I believe there has to be an excess of 50K for fraud charges to be filed with the FBI.

aro13

What I find difficult to understand at times is that PRO cards continue to sell. On this board, the Network 54 board and I will assume the Beckett board everybody posts to not bid on PRO cards as they are most likely trimmed or altered. As a comparison, when it was stated that some of the Star Company basketball cards were re-printed the Star Company market dropped completely, even though Beckett still lists them with high prices.

Dhjacks

I'm out $120.

Virtualizard

<< <i>What I find difficult to understand at times is that PRO cards continue to sell. On this board, the Network 54 board and I will assume the Beckett board everybody posts to not bid on PRO cards as they are most likely trimmed or altered. As a comparison, when it was stated that some of the Star Company basketball cards were re-printed the Star Company market dropped completely, even though Beckett still lists them with high prices. >>




Well, if 99% of PSA's market share does not read the posts on these forums, what % of the entire card collecting world does that leave to bid on ebay auctions of PRO graded cards? I am being sarcastic, but in reality, we do make up a very, very small percentage of the collecting public. I deal with people nearly every week, ebay or otherwise, who have probably never even held a graded card (from any company - legit or not) in their hands. Hell, 5-6 years ago I was dead set against paying a premium for graded cards. I was collecting raw sets and picked up the occasional USA graded card because I couldn't find a nice raw example and I considered these cards satisfactory for my sets. I finally got a PSA 8 for one of my raw sets and everything changed. I have never looked back.

Luckily, I never got into the higher priced cards before finding PSA (SGC as well). For any serious collectors, the same thing will eventually happen. For those that do not learn from these mistakes, there is nothing that we can do to help. It is better to focus on promoting the good in the hobby than it is to attempt to be vigilantes in a futile effort to rid the hobby of the "undesirables". More than likely, they will eventually accomplish this on their own.

JEB.

scottsusor

From my admittedly limited legal background, I can assure you that no business entity will be challenged by any government agency unless there is proof of a local/state/federal law being broken. And even then, it is most often only in matters of threats to public health and welfare that such action will be initiated. Somehow, I don't think that anybody could make a case that complaints of (allegedly) incompetent professional card grading, or even a torteous conflict of interest, constitutes such a threat. These are matters that would/should be referred to civil ligation, if anything.

Scott

RobE

Hey Neal,here is some food for thought.

Wabittwax

I've been involved in cards in one way or another since I was a kid so it really, really pisses me off to see Mickey Mantle's getting chopped up and to top it off, a novice collector getting screwed out of money. It hurts the hobby I love. I'd absolutely love to catch that SOB that is trimming Mantle's in a back alley somewhere. Hopefully I'll catch him at a National sometime and have a few "words".

schr1st

I don't think Gary attends the National, as he knows better than to (granted, that doesn't stop Broadway Rick, but I digress). I know Pro didn't attend last years. Did they or CTA (Certified Trimmed or Altered), USA, or the even worse grading companies (the ones Divich has had his hands in) ever set up at the Nationals? I think I remember seeing some ad for CTA being at the 2001 National, but I could be wrong.

grilloj39

Again, any collector considering buying vintage cards (and in many cases expensive vintage cards) has a certain responsibility to educate himself/herself on the grading industry.

What PRO does with it's encapsulation in no way guarantees the card's authenticity. Therefore, I cannot see any liability on their part. Yes, we know what the deal is with PRO, and we don't buy PRO high end graded cards knowing the probability of buying an altered/trimmed card (for those of us who do not want trimmed cards in our collection).

However, I think it's important to note that not all people who buy PRO graded cards buy them unwittingly. They know full well that a 52 Mantle in NM-MT condition is trimmed. For these collectors, the trimmed card and/or alteration isn't a problem for them, especially as they buy this sharp-looking, yet trimmed card at a bargain price.

Let PRO be. I do not think a select group of collectors should have decision-making authority for the entire card collecting public on who we can buy (or not buy) cards graded slabs from.

1420sports

It is a shame that some collectors will save for a card like this ....

38 Joe D

and see it come up for auction when funds do not allow a purchase - now, more than likely, one less Dimaggio in an affordable condition is available

mikeschmidt

I'm contribute to legal fees if we include Beckett in the lawsuit for grading sheet cut cards.

NickM

CTA was at the 2000 National. I don't hold them in the same disregard as I do PRO. CTA seems to have been started on a principle that grading should be done in the most scientific and replicable way possible. Unfortunately, in the execution, it turns out that their system doesn't work well for finding intentional alterations, as opposed to flaws.

Nick