Copper experts - Does anyone see tooling on this coin?

Barry

1793 Wreath Cent.
Opinions appreciated. Thanks.

mozeppa

looks like a drill bit attempt at 9 o'clock on the reverse

coinguy1

Barry, I generally think of the word "tooling" as representing re-engraving or strengthening of design details. However, it is sometimes used to denote making other types of markings on coins.

I don't detect any obvious re-engraving but there appears to be some type of "something or other" above parts of the legend on the reverse, near the rim. Either way, I almost always recommend avoiding higher value items such as this, unless they have been certified by a well respected grading company and/or you have a return privilege and really know what you're doing.

Barry

Thanks Mark. I just got the coin back from ANACS and they net graded it for tooling and corrosion. The corrosion is obvious in the surface pitting. The tooling was a real surprise to me. I bought this coin from a well-respected copper dealer, and there is a return privilege on it.

coinguy1

Sorry about that, Barry. Sometimes a coin's surfaces are smoothed out/over to make them appear better than they actually are - perhaps that is what happened here.

I'd suggest returning it quickly and politely and don't be talked in to keeping it, no matter what!

sinin1

how about obverse in the hair straight behind the eye

almost looks like someone tried to put a bow in the hair or something to make it look like the obverse of the chain cent

too late now but do you remember what the edge said?

Barry

There are a few digs in the hair, no question. It's an S-10 vine and bars edge.

agentjim007

ANACS nets more than they should IMO. If your going to wait for a no problem 111 year old copper (and I don't mean one in a PCGS holder I mean a REAL, NO problem coin) You better be prepared to wait...and wait..and wait. Hopefully your 20 years old. One reason I like this series is that collectors are very forgiving of problems. What I use as criteria to buy is simply do I like the look and the price, end of story.

291fifth

I agree with Mark. Return the coin. ANACS is tough on these coins and you should be too!

dorkkarl

the obverse is tooled at 12:00, probably to strengthen the rim & "liberty".

your wreath kicks A55, you should keep it if you paid around 1900 - it's worth it. boneheads that only know what slabed blast-white dmpl morgans & such look lik think this is a "problem" coin - they need to get over it. your coin IS NICE.

ALL THAT MATTERS is, do you like it?

K S

Dog97

On the obv rim about 2k-3k and especially @ 3k and then again @ 7k-10k there appears to be smoothed over areas in the field near the rim and extending inward in to the fields and in the hair right behind the face. There are also some cuts @ 7-10k that were possibly smoothed out.
That could just be an artifact of the pict from jpeg compression but that is the only thing I can see that could be tooling but I don't proclaim to be a copper expert either.
I don't think they are calling the numerous cuts & scratches tooling.

elwood

The obverse field from 7:00-11:00 has been smoothed. Above and to the left of the date and behind the neck.

I don't know if it is the lighting, but the rim appears to have been filed from 11:00-2:00.

The reverse looks all right other than a few scratches.

abuell

<< <i>the obverse is tooled at 12:00, probably to strengthen the rim & "liberty".

your wreath kicks A55, you should keep it if you paid around 1900 - it's worth it. boneheads that only know what slabed blast-white dmpl morgans & such look lik think this is a "problem" coin - they need to get over it. your coin IS NICE.

ALL THAT MATTERS is, do you like it?

K S >>



I agree with Karl!

Barry

I paid considerably more than $1900. Back she goes... Thanks for the comments.

Rittenhouse

Barry,

Don't know who you bought this from, but send it back. Don't deal with the scumbag again . It's an obviously retooled pig. As elwood noted, burnished left field from 7 - 11. Also looks burnished across hair.

Barry

Interesting turn of events...

I contacted the dealer (Steve Ellsworth, aka Butternut), and he tells me I misunderstood his return policy. He will take the coin back in trade, at the amount I paid, but will not give me a refund. I take back what I said about a well-respected copper dealer!

elwood

WOW, I know Steve Ellsworth but not that well? It does suprise me he offers no refund. I thought he was fairly well respected in the industry. I have seen some off quality coins in his case at some healthy prices though.

Newmismatist

<< <i>Interesting turn of events...

I contacted the dealer (Steve Ellsworth, aka Butternut), and he tells me I misunderstood his return policy. He will take the coin back in trade, at the amount I paid, but will not give me a refund. I take back what I said about a well-respected copper dealer! >>



Is the dealer an ANA member? If yes, you might want to consider contacting them - coin has been messed with and he should have disclosed that to you. If he's a dealer in early copper and doesn't know, why does he hold himself out as a dealer. On the other hand, if he sold it to you "AS IS" with all defects, then you're stuck.

I sure wouldn't just roll over if I had bought this coin and found out it was tooled/doctored etc. Complain & let him know that you're gonna complain to ANA if he's a member. He may be well respected, but the respect seems to end at the edge of his table.
Perhaps the question is: "By whom?"

Barry

He doesn't have anything about the ANA on his web site, but he is listed in the ANA's dealer listing. I notified him of my intent to file a complaint with the ethics committee, and I'll wait till after the weekend for a response before proceeding.

If this coin were silver, I never would have bought raw, but these copper guys are so anti-slabbing, it's tough to find certified large cents. I see why...

pontiacinf

Hey Barry

Im sure if You let Steve know your intentions, he'll make good.

If not, we'll have a bbq this summer n roast him like a pig

psst...just kidding steve

dorkkarl

<< <i>Interesting turn of events... I contacted the dealer (Steve Ellsworth, aka Butternut) >>

steve ellesworth? why didn't you say so???

ALSO known as "butter-butt"



<< <i>... and he tells me I misunderstood his return policy. He will take the coin back in trade, at the amount I paid, but will not give me a refund >>

BAM!

more & more "respected" dealers are pulling this scam. find a new dealer!

K S

Rittenhouse

Sorry to hear this Barry. You've learned an unfortunately expensive lesson about early type. A good bit of early has been fooled with, processed, whatever you want to call it. And, don't count on slab protecting you. "Improved" coins often make it into slabs. You really need to know what you're doing in this area BEFORE plunking down money.

EvilMCT

I'm not surprised by the tooling on this coin. As stated before, it's common on early type coins. I am surprised with your dealings with Butternut. This goes against everything I've heard about him. Please keep us updated on how this ends. Good luck.

Ken

agentjim007

I bought one coin from him (only $125 coin and I returned it), I was told I had a full refund for a certain amount of days (don't remember could have been anywhere from 7 to 30). After that I could get 75% cash refund forever as long as I kept invoice and envelope or 90% in trade forever.

Coin Finder

I know Steve and have dealt with him. I really have no comment about him.

Try contacting EAC and asking for help. Here is a link:

http://www.eacs.org/

Other dealers I will buy from that I trust and who would not do this are:

Chris McCrawly
Jim Meguigan (sp?)
Jim Long
Doug Bird
Tom Reynolds
H Craig Hamling


All EAC members

I for one cannot see any tooling, however I would need to see the coin in my hand with a loop. It is not a bad coin in my opinion. If you paid PQ money then send it back. In my opinion, most of Steves coinage would not certify if that is your aim.

Tbig

jeffnpcb

I'm with Dorkkarl on this item! Always check for returns policies first! I'm having a tough time on half and large cents raw as well.

dorkkarl

i think a lot of you are missing the point. the problem of "tooling" on this coin is very minimal concern. it's really no big deal! not by comparison to the corrosion. i net-grade this coin about g-6, but that's 90% due to corrosion, 10% due to tooling.

K S

Rittenhouse

The tooling is minimal??? I don't think so. The tooling turns a coin that knowledgeable collectors would find acceptable into a POS.

dorkkarl

so.... if somebody inscribed a swastika on a 1794 bust dollar, then someone else subsequently tooled it off, you'd have rather had the coin w/ the swastika on it not tooled off?

the point is, the coin was hosed (ie corroded + damaged) BEFORE it was tooled, so how could tooling make it worse? that's why, IN THIS CASE, i'd be more concerned by the corrosion than the tooling. bear in mind too, 100% of the coin's surface is affected by the corrosion, while maybe only 10% at the very most has been tooled.

K S

Rittenhouse

No, the point is you have no idea of what the coin looked like before the tooling. And now that's it's tooled we'll never know. It's now unsaleable to a knowledgeable copper collector.

dorkkarl

hey rittenhouse, i definitely have to disagree. of my fellow eac members, MANY of them have tooled copper coins. sometimes, that's what you can afford. i myself have several burnished pieces, & it really doesn't bother me.

(of course, it sounds like the coin example at hand was more than barry could afford, so he wants to return it.)

K S

Barry

Dorkkarl - G6 is exactly what ANACS net graded it.

BTW, after telling Ellsworth I would be filing a complaint with the ANA, he sent me this in an email:
If the coin has been tooled, and I did not mention it on my coin flip then
it was my mistake. Send it back in the holder from ANACS with my coin flip
registered mail within 5 days and I will refund your entire purchase
price.

Coin will go back tomorrow (unless we're snowed in). Hopefully, the end of the saga...

Conder101

I have to agree with Dorkkarl. Look at the first Robbie Brown sale, there were a significant number of tooled or burnished pieces in his early date set and the EACers were falling all over themselves to bid in that sale and prices were strong for the time as well.

elwood

I think the question is:

1. Was Barry buying a messed with or unmessed with coin and what was it offered to him as? (I won't say problem free because of the corrosion)

2. Did Barry pay the price of a problem coin or an original coin?

At $1900.00+++ I think he was paying for an original coin.

It's not that it was a bad coin. It's too much money for what he thought he was buying. Many collectors who can't afford to own higher grade coins would maybe wait a lifetime to own one like this, tooling and all. They would be proud of it and it may even be the Crown Jewel in their collection. I respect that. I still remember how excited I got the first time I held a 93-S Morgan in AG. I was affraid I was going to drop it or something or the time when I wrote out that check for my first 1916-D Merc. in G-4.

Answer:

Barry was overcharged for a problem coin, period..

You have to calculate how much less it is worth with a problem, than without.

Barry

<< <i>(of course, it sounds like the coin example at hand was more than barry could afford, so he wants to return it.)

K S >>


Not more than I can afford, but as elwood said, it was too much money for what I this coin turned out to be.

Shoedog

Barry,
Any final outcome on this?

Barry

Yes. Full refund received.