OT: Trimmed, miscut, not-holdered, etc.
toppsgun
Posts: 787 ✭
In the post about keeping a running total for slabbed cards that the posters on this board own, I came across an interesting disclosure by Tom P. about Jim Crandall's collection.
It concerned the "hundreds or thousands" of card savers that came back with "trimmed" on them.
I recall posts made by Davalillo decrying the fact that PSA graders weren't catching trimmed cards and sooooo many were slipping through.
Now isn't that ironic?
Seems to me PSA is doing a whale of a job to catch so many hack jobs one person has submitted.
Davalillo also said something about "hiding the evidence" (surely in jest). If not in jest, it reminds me of the criminals, when busted, that are found to have hoarded tons of evidence that is used against them.
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave."
It concerned the "hundreds or thousands" of card savers that came back with "trimmed" on them.
I recall posts made by Davalillo decrying the fact that PSA graders weren't catching trimmed cards and sooooo many were slipping through.
Now isn't that ironic?
Seems to me PSA is doing a whale of a job to catch so many hack jobs one person has submitted.
Davalillo also said something about "hiding the evidence" (surely in jest). If not in jest, it reminds me of the criminals, when busted, that are found to have hoarded tons of evidence that is used against them.
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave."
0
Comments
I have approximately 100 holders of cards that have come back undersized or altered. Upon resubmitting these to psa, many have come back graded. Funny what can be trimmed one time can be an 8 the next time.Cost of doing business. This cost though has been overwhelmed by the tremendous appreciation in vintage card prices and the add to value of putting them in an 8 holder.
The other comment about keeping them in my closet is a joke.
Good luck trying to complete that first set in psa 8 and good luck on your obsession. I am posting about my latest set complete in psa 8 or better so you can count with me to 100--can you count that high?
<< <i>I have approximately 100 holders of cards that have come back undersized or altered. Upon resubmitting these to psa, many have come back graded. Funny what can be trimmed one time can be an 8 the next time. >>
which just proves that you like and believe in
PSA grading SO MUCH that you are willing to
resubmit until you get it in a PSA slab!
Sounds like a real endorsement of the Value of a PSA
slab rather than a slam on the company.
(the REAL question is: Why are you submitting
trimmed and altered cards to begin with? )
Obviously I did not know they were altered. If you would have collected cards pre-grading you would know that there were a lot of altered cards floating around. I ended up with some too. Marshall had a lot. He went after certain of the trimmers. I was able to go back to reputable companies after PSA would not grade and get a refund. Some were debatable as to whether they were altered. PSA obviously had different opinions.
It was the advent of PSA that caused collectors to regain confidence in collecting cards again and for that they deserve great credit which I give them. Now I think card restoration tecqniques have become so sophisticated, it is a real challenge for all card grading companies to stay ahead of the technology.
Dav
I have seen dozens of posts by members on this board that they received rejections for cards they pulled from packs themselves. Unless each and every one of those members is lying about something (i.e., they didn't actually pull the card from an unopened pack or they trimmed it before submitting it), then PSA sometimes wrongly rejects cards for evidence of trimming. Many of those members have resubmitted the rejected card and gotten it graded on the second submission. We have also seen threads where highly respected dealers like Steve Pekovich cracked out vintage cards they felt had been undergraded and sent them in, only to have the cards rejected for evidence of trimming. Unless Steve was lying, different PSA graders had different opinions about whether the card was trimmed. That being the case, do you agree that identification of trimmed cards is not a perfect science and produces false positives and false negatives? If you do agree, is it unreasonable for a collector who disagrees with a rejection and believes it was a false positive to resubmit that same card? Furthermore, considering the size of Davalillo's collection and the quantities that he has submitted himself (through dealers from his own raw collection), is there anything abnormal about the number of rejected cards that he has, considering the era of production of the cards, which would lead you to suspect that he is involved in altering cards?
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
In the interest of full disclosure, I have had 133 different cards out of perhaps 15000 submitted that have come back not holdered. I have 16 that were rejected a second time and 4 which were rejected a third time.
I have had perhaps 12 that were holdered a second time after being rejected in round one.
I have also had cards graded by sgc(perhaps 15) that were rejected one or more times by psa. I usually sell these cards once I get a psa 8. In all cases I tell the dealer who I am selling to that the card was rejected by psa for evidence of trimming.
Approx. 24 of my cards were rejected for not meeting the min. size requirement(not trimmed). I had a few that were power erased before this was known. Some that were recolored. Most rejects however were evidence of trimming and I found that this in some cases was a very subjective thing.
Anyway, I do not consider the number of cards not unholdered to be abnormally large given how many I have submitted.
Many altered cards came from two specific dealers--neither one of which is in bus today--one of these is the guy that Marshall went after.
Dav
The Jim bashing is a little childish at this point. Obviously I saw a mix of returns and other Card Saver I's.
The point is that we have spent much more money with PSA than what we have in inventory today. A better way to look at what business we bring PSA is in our number of submissions. That means successful (currently owned and sold) and unsuccessful submissions.
I bet the % would grow to 3%
Jim- sorry for causing more trouble. My eyes may need to get checked.
Tom
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
<< <i>I have approximately 100 holders of cards that have come back undersized or altered. Upon resubmitting these to psa, many have come back graded. Funny what can be trimmed one time can be an 8 the next time.The other comment about keeping them in my closet is a joke. >>
I don't find this funny at all.This should never have happened. In fact, I find it highly unethical.
This is exactly what is wrong with the sportscard grading business.
No matter how much "coaxing" or who is doing the coaxing, a company like PSA should never change its assessment of a trading card when a collector or dealer pressures it to do so. Rather than pander to influential collectors or dealers, PSA should stand firm on its professional opinions. Shame on Davalillo for forcing the change in opinion and shame on PSA for pandering to certain collectors. Indeed, it is very disturbing to read that this kind of behavior still goes on today.
Joe
That has to be one of the single most uninformed comments I have ever read on these boards. Card comes back trimmed--I send it in again--psa grader has no idea its from me. There is no pressure on my part and no pandering on their part.
You are just part of the hate Davalillo group and trying to use what little card knowledge you have to attack me.
As Frank(Mantlefan) says, most of his altered cards were then graded on resubmission. I did not have as good luck but several were graded the second time around.
Frank,
Maybe we can talk off line--I would like to hear what graders gave you refunds and which didn't.
Dav
Perhaps just a bit too harsh ??
We probably all have got some cards back which we felt were under-graded or unfairly evaluated as stained, miscut, altered, Etc. Trimmed cards are quite perplexing, as new cards from unopened packs can come out in a slightly different size once in a while.
By re-submitting and thereby gaining a point or getting rid of a qualifier, or a favorable re-judgement of an alteration, may not in itself be unethical. Getting a new opinion/prespective may work out worse as well, so there can be a downside too. A card which seems to to be okay and one which you have no prior knowlege of any altering, should be allowed to be re-submitted.
It is purported any submission is anonymous, therfore no "favors" could be done for anyone. ???
It's up to PSA to hold itself to consistent grading, which it doesn't do as much as it should (in my opinion).
The first card I ever had come back "trimmed" from PSA completely surprised me. It was part of a sumbission I turned in at the Anaheim National. It was a 1963 #571-Klippstein. It was slightly undersized, but having examined it closely, I came to the conclusion it was not trimmed. I believed it to be from a presentation set, as I had heard those ran small. I did resubmit that one, it came back 9.
The same year, I submitted Rose Rookie that came back trimmed from PSA and Beckett (used their free submission at the National to have them confirm it). I sent that card back where I had bought it four months earlier for a full refund. He is a well-known card chopper in Florida who is frequently mentioned on these boards. I wasn't aware of his shenanigans at the time.
In 2000, I had a Staub rookie come back trimmed. It was likewise returned to Burbank Sportscards for a refund.
I don't recall any other cards I submitted coming back from PSA as trimmed. I'll put my submission record up against anyone's. Fact is, I look over my cards extensively before submitting them. Both PSA and Beckett gave me a primer on how to spot trimmed cards. I do a darned good job at it apparently.
I won a PSA 8 common a couple of years ago on ebay (428-Carl Boles). Not only was the card undersized, the t/b centering was about 20/80 at best and under magnification, I found evidence the card had been trimmed. I sent it to PSA (twice) for a review and refund. They sent it back (twice) unchanged. I believe that card is still in my collection, but it is the red-headed stepchild, if it is.
Last summer, I had a 1959 common I bought from Kyle Boetel come back from SGC "trimmed." Kyle, as is his policy, bought it back from me.
As for my comments re: Davalillo, if he is going to make a habit out of slamming PSA and making innuendo based on unnamed rumor sources, I'm going to continue to point out his hypocrisy. The "stacks and stacks of card savers" was open season and too obvious to pass up.
<< <i>Koby,
That has to be one of the single most uninformed comments I have ever read on these boards. Card comes back trimmed--I send it in again--psa grader has no idea its from me. There is no pressure on my part and no pandering on their part.
You are just part of the hate Davalillo group and trying to use what little card knowledge you have to attack me.
>>
You are are right. You are never remind PSA over and over that you are a major collector and you never expect special treatment from PSA.
Give me a break.
He may not like it that I broke the story on Dmitri or Charley switching over sets or that sources that I trust are telling me things that are going on in psa. He may be completely comfortable with PSA sweeping the WIWAG scandal under the rug or PSA losing experienced graders.
But to constantly ridicule my collection and the number of people who would come see it is too much.
Marc(Mike Schmidt) understands my strategy better than anyone--build over 100 vintage psa sets over time without paying big prices for the low pops. Like it or not, the end result will be very impressive if I follow it through and there is not a person who has seen my collection that is not in awe.
Dav
<< <i>I don't find this funny at all.This should never have happened. In fact, I find it highly unethical. >>
It's funny how someone who's using the name & icon of Kobe Bryant, a
person who cheated on his wife and is a *possible* rapist, feels
compelled to preach about ethics.
But the fact is, YOU ridicule other's collections, making a mockery of vintage vs. modern.
YOU come on these boards expecting everyone to petition PSA to give you special treatment because you submit lots of cards, then take your toys and leave, then return, then leave again. Now you're back. Not as friendly over across the street as you hoped, huh?
YOU put out unsubstantiated rumor after rumor, then when the President of PSA comes on to refute you, you act just like Mike Wentz and continue on with your diatribe. Talk about beating a dead horse.
YOU disclose purported salaries of graders after citing inside information sources. That's none of your business. How do you think the graders felt about that publicity?
We're not in awe of your collection, you t-urd. We're in awe of your chutzpah, your arrogance, your attitude toward the authenticator and finally I personally am in awe of your naivete in thinking all these low population, rare commons are somehow going to surface just when you need them and you'll be the only buyer waiting to scoop them up.
I've gotten numerous emails and PM's from posters here who agree with me but don't want to go public against you. They're either nicer than me or are selling to you and don't want to lose future revenue. Those are sources I WON'T reveal because I gave them my word. But your high opinion of yourself is grossly inflated. A little humility will go a long way in this hobby, fella. You might want to consider that.
<< <i>It's funny how someone who's using the name & icon of Kobe Bryant, a
person who cheated on his wife and is a *possible* rapist, feels
compelled to preach about ethics.
What in the world are you talking about?
Let me follow your logic. If my CU forum name was Rose, does that mean I condone betting on baseball games? If my CU forum name was Mickey, does that mean I condone alcoholism and womanizing? If my CU name was Juice, does that mean I feel it is ok to commit murder? If I am a fan of these sports figures, I should not judge any issues at all? So becasue I am a fan of a particular ballplayer, that makes me unable to comment on ethical or unethical behavior about trading cards.
Next time, try to think about your posts before you publicize your lack of education.
Funny, I have also gotten a number of private messages indicating what a jerk you are but not wanting to get involved.
You can continue your obsession and make up reasons to attack me.
You can read what real collectors think here on the boards.
<< <i>The "stacks and stacks of card savers" was open season and too obvious to pass up. >>
The quote was "In fact, I saw hundreds, maybe thousands of those at Jim Crandells house a few months back."
As it turns out it was hundreds. Approxiamtely 200 in all likelihood. Well under 1% of Jim's submissions.
Besides, Murcerfan hit the nail on the head. This thread REALLY sucks.
Best not to talk to him--he misstates everything and ignores the facts.
Go New England.
What someone does with their money is their business. Davallilo stated he informs those who buys his cards that they were returned for "evidence of trimming" at one point. Good enough for me.
This thread was started with the intent of providing an attack against a fellow collector to invoke a response. Let the negativity go. Davallilo is good for PSA and PSA is good for Davalillo.
Silver Coins
e-bay ID: grilloj39
e-mail: grilloj39@gmail.com
My cable company sucks.
But most board members do not like the bickering so I would ask everyone to ignore his ongoing attacks on me, drop it and maybe just maybe some day he will grow up.
Dav
I think you're letting your personal feelings about Davalillo influence you into making a bigger deal out of the number of PSA-rejected cards he has than it actually is. If you're submitting high dollar cards, and 1% or so are coming back ungradeable, even if you're the world's biggest jerk, it doesn't make you a card doctor or scam artist.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.