Note the ghost of the original date from the coin used as a planchet for the restrike Gobrecht. Same for the 1851 restrikes - they've been found on other earlier dated dollars. In the case of the 1851-O, they used a New Orleans coin as a planchet. I suppose it's slightly cooler in that the human mind likes to add value to 'different' things - such as the punch on breast Brasher when all the others are punch on wing.
I had missed S. Teichman's article on uspatterns. Thanks, TDN. That picture sure looks weird, though, almost like a Photoshop overlay (which I know it isn't).
Actually, J-1984 (10-cent, 1916) is not really a pattern. It is part of approx 1.2 million dimes of this design struck in August 1916 and intended for circulation. The issue was melted after the coins proved too thick to pass through coin-operated telephone boxes. They are best termed "abandoned production tests" much like the 1922 high relief Peace dollars. (The medium relief 1922 is a true pattern or experimental piece.)
The 1916 half with a large "T" in Liberty and final reverse (J-1993) may also fall in the same category, although we have less documentary evidence.
See "Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921" for complete information on the 1916 and 1921/22 pattern silver coins.
The 1853-o NA/R 50c is an absolutely accepted rarity, and IMHO, was struck for circulation.
The 1870-s 5c is another undocumented, but authentic mint product and it was struck for circulation. I have a feeling that other coins will turn up someday, as it has the fabric of a normal business strike coin. Another coin that I am expecting to show up is an 1870-s quarter, because it is the only denomination missing from the issues of that year. Quarters were struck in 1869 and 1871 in SF. I just do not see any reason for there not to have been quarters struck in 1870 in SF.
It is almost certain that no 41-0 $5 were struck.
The 1851-o $ was an after hours job at the mint, supposedly to make an 1851 $, but an O mint coin was used to make it. It is unique.
The restrikes for the 1804 dollar were made clandestinely, as well.
The 1804 dollars have been accepted into the collector realm and it is quite possible that the 51-o will be as well.
It is really not what is a legitimate rarity, as whether the coin will be accepted by the numimatic public.
Rarity is strictly based on population of existing survivors. Perhaps we should talk about numismatically acceptable into series.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Just like the 1964 peace dollars, the 1851-O NA half WAS struck for circulation, but THEY SHOULD have been melted. HOW 3 escaped? Maybe when they emplied the bags into the fire pit, 3 didn't fall out, and the bags were used later for circulation strikes for delivery. Kinda like the copper planchets left in the penny bags for 1943, and then steelies left over for 1944. Maybe??
Still, should not exist, and not legitimate - just because it exists.
Just like the 1964 peace dollars, the 1851-O NA half WAS struck for circulation, but THEY SHOULD have been melted. HOW 3 escaped? Maybe when they emplied the bas into the fire pit, 3 didnt fall out, and the bags were used later for circulation strikes for delivery. Kinda like the copper planchets left in the penny bags for 1943, and then steelies left over for 1944. Maybe??
Still, should not exist, and not legitimate - just becasue it exists. >>
Is it possible they were set aside for the annual assay commission and somehow survived destruction?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The 64-d Peace dollar would be just the same as the 53-0 half. Both genuine, both highly desirable and both six figures, or more.
Nothing fake about either coin.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Wow ... cool to see this thread from 2004 resurrected !!! Thanks IGWT ... Now I will have to read it through again and refurbish the waning knowledge in my ever-obsolescing cerebrum. Looking at those old posts, I see that I was much sharper then !!! LOL ... and lloydmincy and others, thanks for the compliments
By the way, some trivia .... I believe the $132K Rays proof referred to in the first post was one purchased raw by Jim Halperin less than a year prior for about $84K when Stack's shamelessly broke up the 1867 Garrett proof set, which contained both Rays and No Rays proof nickels. Nobody beats Halperin; he apparently made $50,000 on the coin by consigning it to his own Heritage auction where it sold for $132K. At Stack's, I bought the other nickel, the No Rays coin, out of the Garrett set because it had the prototype reverse IIo - not surprising to find in the Garrett proof set, which probably originated from early strikings. That coin later became part of my set of Cherrypicker shield nickel varieties, and was slabbed by NGC with the "PROTO REV" designation and the FS-1867-1001 variety designation using J.T.'s new numbering system. In fact, this was the first variety coin ever slabbed by NGC with the new FS system. The coin now belongs to none other than QDB, who purchased the entire Cherrypicker set including the Garrett proof, and had them all reholdered by ANACS in their new slabs.
<< <i>Just like the 1964 peace dollars, the 1851-O NA half WAS struck for circulation, but THEY SHOULD have been melted. HOW 3 escaped? Maybe when they emplied the bags into the fire pit, 3 didn't fall out, and the bags were used later for circulation strikes for delivery. Kinda like the copper planchets left in the penny bags for 1943, and then steelies left over for 1944. Maybe??
Still, should not exist, and not legitimate - just because it exists. >>
Lloyd, I understand your point. Your theory is that if all of the coins should have been melted, the coins shouldn't exist, and therefore are not legitimate. Does this also apply to the 1876-CC twenty cent pieces, the 1873-CC No Arrows dime, the 1873-CC No Arrows quarters, and the 1974 aluminum cents?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I was under the impression that as many as 20 were struck and given out to congressman, (mainly from the western states) for a look see. then, when the mint decided not to strike them again the congressman were instructed to give them back. a few chose not to. anyone else ever hear this side?
Comments
Note the ghost of the original date from the coin used as a planchet for the restrike Gobrecht. Same for the 1851 restrikes - they've been found on other earlier dated dollars. In the case of the 1851-O, they used a New Orleans coin as a planchet. I suppose it's slightly cooler in that the human mind likes to add value to 'different' things - such as the punch on breast Brasher when all the others are punch on wing.
Hey, that just means you have less bidders for rare things. And someone with one of these so called "false rarities" make some serious dough.
It's all good.
Rob790
The 1916 half with a large "T" in Liberty and final reverse (J-1993) may also fall in the same category, although we have less documentary evidence.
See "Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921" for complete information on the 1916 and 1921/22 pattern silver coins.
The 1870-s 5c is another undocumented, but authentic mint product and it was struck for circulation. I have a feeling that other coins will turn up someday, as it has the fabric of a normal business strike coin. Another coin that I am expecting to show up is an 1870-s quarter, because it is the only denomination missing from the issues of that year. Quarters were struck in 1869 and 1871 in SF. I just do not see any reason for there not to have been quarters struck in 1870 in SF.
It is almost certain that no 41-0 $5 were struck.
The 1851-o $ was an after hours job at the mint, supposedly to make an 1851 $, but an O mint coin was used to make it. It is unique.
The restrikes for the 1804 dollar were made clandestinely, as well.
The 1804 dollars have been accepted into the collector realm and it is quite possible that the 51-o will be as well.
It is really not what is a legitimate rarity, as whether the coin will be accepted by the numimatic public.
Rarity is strictly based on population of existing survivors. Perhaps we should talk about numismatically acceptable into series.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Just like the 1964 peace dollars, the 1851-O NA half WAS struck for circulation, but THEY SHOULD have been melted. HOW 3 escaped? Maybe when they emplied the bags into the fire pit, 3 didn't fall out, and the bags were used later for circulation strikes for delivery. Kinda like the copper planchets left in the penny bags for 1943, and then steelies left over for 1944. Maybe??
Still, should not exist, and not legitimate - just because it exists.
<< <i>Julian:
Just like the 1964 peace dollars, the 1851-O NA half WAS struck for circulation, but THEY SHOULD have been melted. HOW 3 escaped? Maybe when they emplied the bas into the fire pit, 3 didnt fall out, and the bags were used later for circulation strikes for delivery. Kinda like the copper planchets left in the penny bags for 1943, and then steelies left over for 1944. Maybe??
Still, should not exist, and not legitimate - just becasue it exists. >>
Is it possible they were set aside for the annual assay commission and somehow survived destruction?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Interesting theories/facts
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
Nothing fake about either coin.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
By the way, some trivia .... I believe the $132K Rays proof referred to in the first post was one purchased raw by Jim Halperin less than a year prior for about $84K when Stack's shamelessly broke up the 1867 Garrett proof set, which contained both Rays and No Rays proof nickels. Nobody beats Halperin; he apparently made $50,000 on the coin by consigning it to his own Heritage auction where it sold for $132K. At Stack's, I bought the other nickel, the No Rays coin, out of the Garrett set because it had the prototype reverse IIo - not surprising to find in the Garrett proof set, which probably originated from early strikings. That coin later became part of my set of Cherrypicker shield nickel varieties, and was slabbed by NGC with the "PROTO REV" designation and the FS-1867-1001 variety designation using J.T.'s new numbering system. In fact, this was the first variety coin ever slabbed by NGC with the new FS system. The coin now belongs to none other than QDB, who purchased the entire Cherrypicker set including the Garrett proof, and had them all reholdered by ANACS in their new slabs.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>Just like the 1964 peace dollars, the 1851-O NA half WAS struck for circulation, but THEY SHOULD have been melted. HOW 3 escaped? Maybe when they emplied the bags into the fire pit, 3 didn't fall out, and the bags were used later for circulation strikes for delivery. Kinda like the copper planchets left in the penny bags for 1943, and then steelies left over for 1944. Maybe??
Still, should not exist, and not legitimate - just because it exists. >>
Lloyd, I understand your point. Your theory is that if all of the coins should have been melted, the coins shouldn't exist, and therefore are not legitimate. Does this also apply to the 1876-CC twenty cent pieces, the 1873-CC No Arrows dime, the 1873-CC No Arrows quarters, and the 1974 aluminum cents?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
A post that I'll definitely save.
I was under the impression that as many as 20 were struck and given out to congressman, (mainly from the western states) for a look see. then, when the mint decided not to strike them again the congressman were instructed to give them back. a few chose not to. anyone else ever hear this side?
Steve