What's your definition of uncirculated?

Sphinx357

I'm interested in hearing this as I'm between a rock and a hard place with a buyer that is disagreeing that the coins I sold him were unc.

RNCHSN

As delivered from the mint. Technically, MS60 is uncirculated and that grade can have a LOT of bag marks!

Sphinx357

See! MS60!
I knew I knew what I was talking about.
I think the buyer was expecting a bulk lot of MS67's or something, I dunno.

Fairlaneman

When selling a coin as just uncirculated the luster and high point wear are the key factors. Marks or hits do not matter much just as long as the items mentioned are within the uncirculuted standards.

Much debate is possible about this subject I believe.

Ken

Bear

I do believe holes, dents, gouges deeper then 1/8 inch,

cuts and scratches spelling out obscene phrases would

in all likelyhood , deny a coin uncirculated status.

Just my opinion of course.

razorface1027

As delivered from the mint. Technically, MS60 is uncirculated and that grade can have a LOT of bag marks!

I agree with Ron. However, fairlane makes a valid point concerning debate in this area, eg. I have a 1884-CC. "Old school" premise when grading would've rendered a 60 because of the significant chatter; however, it came back as a 62 because 1: it's a CC and 2: The luster. Point being, again like fairlane said, it's all in the luster factor. I've had specimens; wherein, the devices were next to perfect with normal field chatter, yet, only attained a 58 due to dull luster. Yup, luster's the key!...

Conder101

I'm old school. It's wear. If there is no wear it is Unc. Luster doesn't matter, chatter doesn't matter, marks don't matter, strike doesn't matter. Now those factors DO matter as to value or what level of Uncirculated it is but not to whether or not it is Unc.

fivecents

If Chatter is too intense, an UNC coin can be knocked down to AU. After all an intense amount of chatter can actually hide wear on a coin. I think some coin doctors have created enough chatter on a coin to turn an AU58+ to a MS60-. I have seen this mainly on gold coins.

nwcs

I believe Conder is right. Uncirculated means just that. Never been circulated. Whatever else was done to it, if it didn't circulate, it's uncirculated.

Conder101

Not quite, it IS possible for a coin to circulate briefly and still be uncirculated. It is all a matter of whether it circulated long enough to show wear on the high points.

Fairlaneman

Curious.... What goes first luster or metal ? I'm old school also.

Luster may be subdued but it is still there if a coin is mint state.

Ken

Nysoto

There are many bust halves that have never seen circulation, but 200 years of these passing through generations of collectors hands, and cabinet friction, have rendered these coins as choice AU.

nwcs

Technically luster and metal go at the same time since luster is simply the end point of the metal at the particular location on the coin.

Fairlaneman

<< <i>There are many bust halves that have never seen circulation, but 200 years of these passing through generations of collectors hands, and cabinet friction, have rendered these coins as choice AU. >>



It is true that your example has not seen circulation as we view circulation or define circulation. Passing through generations of collectors, who may have or may have taken care of the coins correctly, does in my mind render these coins circulated if the luster and cabinet friction is sufficient to render them so.

Ken

Nysoto

Fairlaneman,

And we will never know if this "circulation" was a brief tour in commerce , or just through the hands of many generations of collectors.

Conder101

<< <i>There are many bust halves that have never seen circulation, but 200 years of these passing through generations of collectors hands, and cabinet friction, have rendered these coins as choice AU. >>


And they are AU because they have wear, not because they have circulated. It always comes back to wear. You can have Uncirculated coins that actually circulated and AU coins that never did all depending on whether or not the high points show wear.

Baley

... and it doesn't matter how the coin got a bit of rub, really. it is what it is.

this distiction between "uncirculated" and "circulated" is artificial and an artifact of different times.

Fairlaneman

Very True and to own a pleasing choice AU coin of this type should make any collector very happy....

Ken

LovethoseIndians

UNC is a wide open topic, but an uncirculated coin should be one that first off is "attractive to the eye" and contains no serious nicks and bruises from bags, etc.

I buy a lot of UNC Indian cents and one thing I shop around for are brown ones because they can be purchased at budget costs and many people simply like the bright red ones. The problem with the bright red ones is usually price and/or scams with cleaning and dipping.

"UNC" is a difficult term and I have heard many people start "sliding down" to AU55-58" for that reason

coppercoins

It's pretty simple actually...exactly what Conder said. Uncirculated is the absence of wear. Stop getting hung up on semantics. A coin can change hands in commerce without suffering wear - it's still uncirculated GRADE, which is the same as mint state, which means no wear. There is no room for debate, as this is the definition by all published standards.

BillJones

There is no rub or friction. That is what Uncirculated means.

Does it mean that Uncirculated coins are always worth more than very attractive coins with a trace of wear? Not always so far as I'm concerned.

mgoodm3

The only way we can judge a coin is by wear, no wear = unc. We can't really tell whether or not this or that coin ever hit the streets otherwise.

Shamika

If the coin shows no sign of being circulated, then it is uncirculated. PERIOD.

cladking

Uncirculated is a grade not a condition.

Coins wear from the high points down so if the high points are devoid of any signs of wear then the coin is unc.

Conder101

I think we have reached a concensus.

Skipper53

Does that mean if I cracked a coin out of a proof set
and dipped it till all the luster was gone , it would still
be considered "uncirculated" ?

coppercoins

<< <i>Does that mean if I cracked a coin out of a proof set
and dipped it till all the luster was gone , it would still
be considered "uncirculated" ? >>



No, it would still be proof, because that's a method of strike, not a grade. It would also be an altered (damaged) coin and would not warrant grading unless you net grade, and that would make it below a PR60 depending on the amount of damage.

BAJJERFAN

Well you could tumble a 4000 coin bag of quarters in a drum until they were unrecognizable and look like $hit but technically they would still be uncirc but not MS. Crack a roll of quarters, put em in the till, then give em in change to the next customer and now they are circulated. My 25 cents worth.

cladking

<< <i>Well you could tumble a 4000 coin bag of quarters in a drum until they were unrecognizable and look like $hit but technically they would still be uncirc but not MS. Crack a roll of quarters, put em in the till, then give em in change to the next customer and now they are circulated. My 25 cents worth. >>



I broached this subject with Homerunhall some time back. The mint sometimes rotates
new coins in a drum to knock down high rims. These coins will often look just horrible
and have no more detail than VF's.

My opinion is that when the luster is broken on the high points for any reason than the
coin is no longer uncirculated. Even if the reason is a blanket of contact marks then it's
not unc.

The brand new quarter's condition that you just got at the grocery may be circulated, but
it still grades unc until the luster is broken.

HRH said that only wear can lower the grade from unc but he may never have seen a
1974 Ike sans wire rim. Surely no one would submit such a coin.

Conder101

But if you didn't see that customer get that brand new quarter in change next door and he brought it to you how would you grade it? It has full luster, no breaks in the luster, and absolutely no wear showing. What do you call it?

Skipper53

Sounds like if it has full, unbroken luster, regardless of it's history,
it's an "uncirculated" coin .

BAJJERFAN

Condor. I agree that you couldn't tell if you didn't already know. Circulated would generally mean that the coin has been used in commerce and uncirculated would mean that it was not. Being able to tell which is which simply by looking at the coins is not always a black-white proposition.

fivecents

A coin IMO can have zero luster and still be uncirculated. Subdued or zero luster is not caused just from wear.
Chatter is a different story. If a coin has a huge(and I mean HUGE) ammount of chatter it can mask the wear.

Ethan

According to Official ANA Grading Standards for US coins,

"The term "uncirculated" interchangeable with "Mint State" refers to a coin which has never seen circulation. Such a piece has no wear of any kind. A coin as bright as the time it was minted or with very light natural toning can be described as "Brilliant Uncirculated". A coin which has natural toning can be described as "Toned Circulated".

According to the 11-point Grading scale:

(MS-60) Unattractive, dull washed out mint luster may mark this coin.There may be many ugly or large contact marks, or damage spots, but absolutely no trace of wear.

I hope this helps.....

Newmismatist

New (as opposed to used). But then again, the answer to that question may depend on whether you're the buyer or the seller.

Actually the term Un-circulated by defination means NOT circulated. But there are many NOT circulated coins that I wouldn't buy as unc. Heavily bag marked silver dollars would (to me) merit an AU grade because the bag marks actually do far more damage to the surfaces of the coin than would very lite circulation - which is why there are some very nice AU 58 coins that are in reality bargins when compared to some of the ugly unattractive "Uncs" that are in all of the grading service's slabs.

Robgetty

I liked it when some of the mule Sac/quarters were sent in for slabbing
when the finder claimed that it came out of a vending machine, etc. When
they came back in grades like MS64, this same argument popped up. (How
can it be called anything other than AU58+++ if it came out of a vending
machine, etc.) The predominant answer was that a coin can stay as an
"uncirculated" while in circulation based on wear.
Of course I usually see AU58 coins that look a heck of a lot better than some
MS60's out there, so it is all relative.

Fairlaneman

The people that posted to this thread need to get together with a few coins and grade them. No numbers but just put Circulated or Uncirculated on each coin. The results could be interesting.

Nice discussion folks.....

Ken

Nysoto

Most people agree that an uncirculated coin is simply a coin that shows no wear. There would be a lot of disagreement, including the grading services, as to the definition of "wear". Coins that were 3P graded AU58 ten years ago are MS62 today, there are many examples of this. Not an exact science. The grade would vary depending on which 3P grader did the grading, and what he had to drink the night before. If the definition of wear is absolutely no rub on the high points, there would be very, very few MS bust coins.

I have many bust halves that grade AU55-58, a few 62's, but none in MS64. For myself, it is not worth the 10x price increase from AU58 to MS64, considering most 64's have some rub anyway.

cladking

<< <i>Most people agree that an uncirculated coin is simply a coin that shows no wear. There would be a lot of disagreement, including the grading services, as to the definition of "wear". Coins that were 3P graded AU58 ten years ago are MS62 today, there are many examples of this. Not an exact science. The grade would vary depending on which 3P grader did the grading, and what he had to drink the night before. If the definition of wear is absolutely no rub on the high points, there would be very, very few MS bust coins.

I have many bust halves that grade AU55-58, a few 62's, but none in MS64. For myself, it is not worth the 10x price increase from AU58 to MS64, considering most 64's have some rub anyway. >>



Many collectors are hung up on the idea that a coin has to be uncirculated to be
even collected so there tends o be a wide price difference between AU and Unc
even when an AU coin can be pristine and original while the unc can be unattrac-
tive and baggy. In many cases, especially coins that are less rare in unc, the AU
will bring less money despite being a far better looking coin. Also with the very old
coins there is frequently an accumulation of many years of light friction from being
moved by collectors for display or viewing over many years these insignificant in-
sults will accumulate until the luster is actually broken at he high points.

The market and graders have reacted to this by generally ignoring the rub.

One possible solution would be to grade coins with rub as AU-55 to AU-64. This
would tend to be more in line with market values and would be a pschological boost
for these coins. It would also reflect the reality.

As for coins with no luster, it just goes to show that nothing is simple. Yes they are
out there and most probably never saw circulation but since one can't tell by looking
then they should probably be considered AU.

atomic

The term "uncirculated" has two meanings, one related to a coin's condition and the other to the coin's history. Technically, as soon as a coin is put into circulation, it becomes "circulated." Once a bank distributes a coin to a bank customer, it is in circulation. With respect to condition, a coin that shows evidence of having been handled in circulation, i.e., rub at high points, will not qualify as an "uncirculated" condition coin. Coins that have never been circulated will never have rub but can have an unappealing appearance caused by the way they were handled before they went into circulation. I have MS60 $20 Lib that has no rub and was clearly never circulated, but it looks like it was with a lot of other libs in a bag in the back of a truck that was driven over several hundred miles of unpaved road... many tiny mars on the surface Conversely, coins can sometimes circulate for a shile without any evidence of wear and thus can have an uncirculated appearance... no rub. This is especially true of coins made of harder metals, such as nickles and pennies. Rub from circulation shows up fast on silver and gold coins.

So, at the end of the day, an "uncirculated" coin is either one that can be proven to have never been circulated (e.g., still in its mint packaging) or has absolutely no evidence of rub. At least that's how I see it.

Atomic

Fairlaneman

Here is a coin that would fit into this discussion very nicely. The circled part of her hair shows no wear period, a trifle weak strike wise, but in my opinion the luster is impaired slightly. The circled part on the neck is a place I go to when grading a Merc Dime. If a bright line of light is seen from the bottom of her neck to the top I would call the dime uncirculated and this dime shows that bright line. Still in my mind some doubt remains that the coin is not uncirculated. I think if the posters here saw the coin in hand a 50/50 split on the subject would be had. The reverse is pristine by the way.



Ken

LAWMAN

According to the "Lingo" section of this here website:

Uncirculated
Term to indicate a coin or numismatic item that has never been in circulation, a coin without wear. See “Brilliant Uncirculated,” “Mint State,” and “new.”
See Also -- brilliant Uncirculated Mint State new

BillJones

A couple of comments.

If you dip a coin to the point where all of its original skin has been removed, and the mint luster is impaired, it's no longer a Mint State coin. It does not matter that all of the detail is still there. Once the mint surface is gone, the coin is not Mint State.

Second the term "Uncirculated" is a poor description. A coin can be issued and acturally circulate for a while and still be Mint State if it did not pick up a rub. It's the state of preservation for the coin that matters, not where it has been.