"Collectors are out of the game"
ANACONDA
Posts: 4,692 ✭
I spoke with a full time coin dealer this past Saturday, a lady who buys and sells many coins, mostly in the collector realm. She services many want lists and goes to shows probably several times a month. I have known of her for many years and had polite conversation with her on several occasions. (It's not Laura.) I am convinced that she is "in the know".
She and i had a very pleasant conversation this past Saturday at the Houston show, which was quite good.
I asked her many questions about her business and the market.
One interesting thing she said was that right now she is only selling to other dealers and asute collectors who travel frequently to coin shows who are aware that coin values for many elusive coins (key date coins, early dollars, early copper) are substantially higher than then grey sheet would indicate. She said that most collectors believe that coins offered to them or that appear on price sheets are simply over priced.
And for what it is worth, i sold many coins this weekend to other dealers at substantially higher than grey sheet levels.
Just thought you would like to know.
She and i had a very pleasant conversation this past Saturday at the Houston show, which was quite good.
I asked her many questions about her business and the market.
One interesting thing she said was that right now she is only selling to other dealers and asute collectors who travel frequently to coin shows who are aware that coin values for many elusive coins (key date coins, early dollars, early copper) are substantially higher than then grey sheet would indicate. She said that most collectors believe that coins offered to them or that appear on price sheets are simply over priced.
And for what it is worth, i sold many coins this weekend to other dealers at substantially higher than grey sheet levels.
Just thought you would like to know.
0
Comments
For what it's worth, though, I think collectors are still "in the game" and some of us have been buying and selling nice quality and eye appealing mid level coins (for me that means $100-1000) at strong prices.
but yes, for those "wow" top quality early and those modern coins that are scarce in ga ga grades or with wild (certified) color, the collector is falling out of the game because prices are getting high (er)
I think collectors can still afford to collect, but it's tough to compete with "investors" for the big coins.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I think I know who you are talking about...
I got a little chuckle as you should have seen what she offered me for some of my coins at Santa Clara in November... She may sell way over sheet but she certainly doesnt pay...
PM me with the companies name if you get a chance..
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
We ARE watching you.
It almost slipped past me that you also said <<<asute collectors.>>>
Like in coinguy1's thread on auction prems where everybody said they subtract the juice, shipping & sales tax from their bid, these greysheet tightwads lose out to astute collectors indeed.
how long will these "astute collectors" generally put these coins away in their collections? (or is the word "portfolio"?)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
We ARE watching you.
If they're like me....forever.
not much news there, Adrian. key dates and elusive gems do generally sell for more than sheet. the point i would wonder about is how astute those collectors are who buy already high priced coins at the top of a hot market period. perhaps they feel they may not see the oppurtunity to buy those coins again for some time, not a good position to be in no matter what the item is, widgets or coins. the skeptic in me allows that there is a certain degree of price gouging in coin sales as in other sought after commodities.
al h.
me too, dog.
My best stuff is pretty much "off the market" because I'm not done lookin at it. May take another decade or 3. Then again, it's an ordered collection, not some random box of 20 stunners. Would take a while to sell.
Anyway, I agree that the greysheets are way behind for PQ coins (and by this I don't mean "undergraded versus the slab label", I mean "really nice looking examples, versus "ordinary" looking coins. the EYE Appeal.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>My first thought was after the dealers sell all these overpriced coins to each other then what do they do with them?
It almost slipped past me that you also said <<<asute collectors.>>>
Like in coinguy1's thread on auction prems where everybody said they subtract the juice, shipping & sales tax from their bid, these greysheet tightwads lose out to astute collectors indeed. >>
Very well put Dog97!
Adrian - glad to have you back. Your a great lightning rod!!
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
1) Dealers do most of their business between themselves at major coin shows....
2) Graysheet has been off for over a year on key dates... at least for Peace dollars....... I've bought all I could at ASK months ago.....
Congrats on the profit......Looks like you need more inventory......
1) their collection
2) their coin libraries
3) memories of coins they have owned
4) memories of purchases of coins from dealers which were rips
5) memories of sales of coins to dealers at far above market rates
6) references to them in coin books
7) their children named...."uh.....well theirs...uh...well, I know I have three....or is it four....wait a minute...."
8) their first wives who left them because they were always talking coins
9) their current wives who are often out of breath when they finally get around to calling them from a coin show, reportedly because they "just got off their stationary bicycle", which they never use when he's at home....
in fact, one dealer that some people might describe as astute bought a 1795 half in PCGS AU 55 for around 15K......i saw it....it was spectacular....with luster, a fantastic strike, with original surfaces - sheet for a 50 is like 7K and for a 60 it's like 13K...
this same dealer bought an 1801 Dollar in PCGS AU55 also for around 15k when the interpolated sheet is substantially lower....it was though, well struck, light colored and lustrous....had the Cardinal pedigree.....whoever that it....
<< <i>
There's a wide spectrum of coins increasing in price from about all of the
beginner coins to the most esoteric coins. This is affecting all grades and
series. Much of the "crazy" money is going to the high grade coins, but why
dismiss this segment of he market? Many purists don't think that any coin
should sell for large premiums in the high grades but there are a lot of peo-
ple who seek these coins and they don't all have registry sets.
There are those who seek the finest in all the series they collect. Before this
is simply dismissed as a passing fad it should be remembered that collectors
have always sought the best quality and the grading companies and the in-
ternet have made this much more available for the first time. The number of
registry sets simply continues to mushroom. While there are likely some aspects
of a fad to this trend it's a certainty that the desire for the finest will never fade
among collectors of all types.
OUCH! This is what you call a fantastic mood?
Note to self: don't ever EVER piss-off Anaconda.
We ARE watching you.
Thursday January 08, 2004 1:08 AM
Cam40: I only wished you were right. The number of foreign buyers of US coins have recently soared and it would shock you how much the push for US coins is coming from abroad. Keep in mind that our coins prices are cheap in Euros, Pound, and Canadian Dollar so they are not paying huge premiums. But foreign persons are clearly worried about our US $1. Commodity prices have lit a fire under this hobby price-wise.
We are beginning to see some investment dollars coming back into the hobby.
This is how booms normally begins.
The collector is starting to lose out on purchases to the investor and new non-collectors unless they step up to the plate NOW because they will miss out on the early part of this boom and then have to wait until prices recede 2-4 years from now.
When I speak of boom it is not necessarily a good thing for the coin buyer like myself who prefers a more calm and orderly coin market.
Don't be surprised to see 50% price increase this year overall. That will force me out after this year.
Prices on even the most basal of our US coins, the wheatie cent is skyrocketing percentage wise already.
Here is the thread in which I stated that the boom period had begun. Booms are periods in which the collector fades back since they seem to have the 5th sense of when to participate in puchases!
That other thread re the new boom period
I also believe/know there are plenty of high-quality, truly attractive, (for your benefit - non-modern coins) which can be had at very reasonable/realistic levels. Maybe that dealer is the one who is (at least partly) "out of the game".
<< <i>I don't consider modern coins to be "coins"...they are more lile baseball cards to me. No offense intended, it's just that modern coins are for folks that are still working on sharpening their appetite....they remind me of my kids who would prefer macaroni and cheese to authentic Thai food....to people who don't travel because they can look at photos of places without having to endure the danger of travel....to people who think Texas is the best state....shall i go on? >>
Funny. I didn't see anyone in the entire thread even allude to modern coins except Baley who
included them in the list of coins that are hot.
Modern coins are for people who have enough imagination to appreciate coins that don't sell for
huge amounts of money. They are for people who don't need to impress non hobbyists with their
coins. They are for people who can take the less traveled road and find that here too there are
sights worth seeing. They are for those who seek quality which is actually affordable to those
without six figure incomes. (or even five figure). Moderns are ideal for many true numismatists who
know value and rarity even when it doesn't have a fancy price tag or is returned in change at the
gas station. Moderns work well for people who know history didn't end in 1964.
Sure it may not be caviar but it is steak and some people don't want stinkin' fish eggs anyway.
While you and I dont see eye to eye on moderns, that was a great post.
LOL...
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
Having said that, there are some folks who think Commems are modern and desired by people without well developed tastes. I happen to like them and those that dislike them simply don't see things like i do and will someday if they get a clue.
(Is that too subtle?)
Yes, there are many things the prices of which are accurately portrayed in the grey sheet. Probably most. My focus is just on the coins that i mentioned.
By the way, one thing you can still buy reasonably, are classic commems and it wouldn't surprise me if that changes in the next year.
Broker: I've got a tip XYZ is going to soar.
Bosley: Buy 50,000 shares
next day
Broker: XYZ is up $10
Bosley: Buy 500,000 shares
next day
Broker: XYZ is up $25
Bosley: Buy another 1,000,000 shares
next day
Broker: XYZ is up $100
Bosley: SELL! SELL! SELL!
Broker: To whom?
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since 8/1/6
Is this a joke? If collectors are out of the game, it must be a few shrewd dealers have come up with a clever pyramid scheme, selling to other dealers. With no collectors buying, this last round of dealers will get stuck, with nobody to sell to.
Shhhhhh. Don't tell everybody!
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
This weekend i bought a circulated Bust dollar in a pcgs holder for under $1000. VG10 i believe.
adrian
I see that the 1905 Double Eagle in PCGS MS64 is gone from your store. If it has sold , can you tell us if a dealer or a collector bought it. That was a 30k list coin!
Good to see you around here to stir things up a little..........refreshing
<< <i>This weekend i bought a circulated Bust dollar in a pcgs holder for under $1000. VG10 i believe. >>
I know you had a 1795 Half in ANACS vg8 that I looked at......probably the coin you are thinking about.
One last thing....dealers buy inventory to resell it.
Just because the collectors are not the highest bidders, currently, doesn't mean they won't soon be.
All I seem to attract lately are hammerheads and cheapskates.
Oh yeah...I sell mostly on eBay. Never mind.
You should start a "just doesn't get it award" and I should be the first winner seing as how you already told me that last year.
I remember being talked out of buying a really pq 1799 bust dollar graded pcgs 64 in May of 2000 because it was priced at the outragous level of 56 K. I don't think I'll ever get over passing that up as I know Iwill never be able to afford another coin like that again.
Coins [really nice monster coins] are always expensive, but how does anyone really now when enough is to much in a "hot" market ? The defenition I here most often is their is no such thing as to much because a coin is worth what a willing buyer and a willing seller agree on but that sounds like b. s. to me because 1 willing buyer might pay more then anyone else would and he might not be their to buy it from you after you buy it. I only know the market for a coin is not nessacarily determined by any 1 source at any 1 time and I don't trust any dealer to tell me what a coin is worth when I'm trying to buy it from them. Try reselling the coin after you buy it then you'll find out the true value of the coin.
Les
when this happens to me, i just look somewhere else. there always seems to be some area of the hobby that interests me where the prices are low. there are also different ways to get around paying the high cost of owning better coins. one of them is to study those much disdained Moderns and hone your cherrypickin' skills. you'd be surprised how easily nice, cheap Kennedy half-dollars can be magically transformed into mint state RB two-cent pieces or Commemorative gold.
why pay full-fare----3x greysheet----if you don't have to?? there are segments of the hobby just begging to be taken advantage of by an astute collector. join in the fun if you dare.
al h.