Would you refund on a graded card?

Dhjacks · January 25, 2004 2:33AM

I purchased three graded cards from a seller for about $10 each. One of the cards was a psa 7 Jabbar that is hard to come by in decent, centered condition. When I received the card, it had a large surface wrinkle on the front of the card that jumped out at me. I emailed the seller and asked for a refund (stating also that I'd purchased over 1,000 psa cards on ebay and had only returned one (cracked case) for a refund.

The following is a log of our emails:
SELLER

on, I cannot refund any graded cards. The grade is as is. That you wouyld have to take up with PSA because this is a matter of opinion.
MY RESPONSE:You should have taken it up with psa, or your source. I'm really surprised that you've taken this stance. Are you sure you won't reconsider? Thx. Don
SELLER:The problem is that you dont agree with the grade of this card. What if other collectors felt the same way as you do?????? PSA stands behind their grading & I have never had them change a grade. Do you realize how many cards I have graded with them? MY SOURCE????????????

Am I being unreasonable?

thefootballcardstore · January 25, 2004 3:43AM

Was there a no refund policy in the auction? If not then he should consider it, if there was then I would think he has every right to feel comfortable refering to the no refund policy. Let us know how it turns out!
Jeremy

Dhjacks · January 25, 2004 3:45AM

There is no mention of a 'no refund policy' in the listing. And, he does state 'satisfaction guaranteed'. He's a Power Seller.

thefootballcardstore · January 25, 2004 3:48AM

'satisfaction guaranteed' sounds like he would offer a refund. I would ask how he guarantees satisfaction, because your not feeling it. Jeremy

BigKidAtHeart · January 25, 2004 3:55AM

<< He's a Power Seller. >>

well, THERE is your problem right there!
Ebay will do nothing to help you
with him and he knows it.
Of all the dealers on her that
are notoriously hard to deal with
(do a search)
I'll bet that ALL of them are Powersellers.

I would refund it, but then again I am NOT a powerseller.

BigKidAtHeart · January 25, 2004 3:56AM

by the way.
WHO is this seller so we can all avoid buying from him?!

Wabittwax · January 25, 2004 4:00AM

"satisfaction guaranteed" DEFINATELY means he should refund your money, otherwise how would he guarantee it?

srs1a · January 25, 2004 4:21AM

If the card has a surface wrinkle...and otherwise, looks like a 7, then is should be sitting in a 4 holder at most. It would seem that this would be a no-brainer for PSA to make good on - either for the seller or the buyer.

And, I agree with everyone....if he guaranteed your satisfaction in the auction...and clearly you're not satisfied...then he should take the card back and deal with PSA himself.

edited for spelling

GoSoxBoSox · January 25, 2004 4:21AM

<< "satisfaction guaranteed" DEFINATELY means he should refund your money, otherwise how would he guarantee it? >>

I agree. Also, it's just good business to go the extra mile for your customers. But I will say that when you buy a PSA graded card you should never be surprised with what you get and refunds shouldn't be necessary unless the holder is cracked, scratched, etc.

BigKidAtHeart · January 25, 2004 4:36AM

<< by the way.
WHO is this seller so we can all avoid buying from him?! >>

Please give us the
EBAY ID for this guy!

Dhjacks · January 25, 2004 4:45AM

I'm getting ready to submit to psa anyway, so I will send it in. It's just that the wrinkle was so obvious that I felt the seller might be trying to sneak one by and I thought I'd call him on it.

I personally would have refunded without a question.
Believe me, I've had many cards that I was disappointed with, but this is a good three grades off. If it wasn't going back to psa, I wouldn't know what to do with it.

The seller is Carrollstreetkid, and he may be ok on other days, I don't know.

Dhjacks · January 25, 2004 5:03AM

Oh, and he holds the feedback hostage. I left him feedback on the two cards that were good, and he has now left feedback on those two only.

jaxxr · January 25, 2004 5:07AM

It may be possible the seller did not see the wrinkle either, it seems both, I assume there were at least two, graders missed it also.

I once got a psa 8 with a nice print mark near the hat on a 74 M Schmidt. I got it quite reasonable so did not do anything, but in the scan the decent sized red dot did not show. Hmmm ?? I wonder how the paypal satisfaction insurance works for either case ??

It should be acceptable for a seller to take back an item and refund the final price less his listing fee and percentage taken by ebay, unless it is totally done with/via ebay and there are no fees or charges to the seller. As a potential buyer one must not think anything may be returned without any compensation for the potential seller's time and expenses unrecoverable. A sale by auction is not the same as a free trial or inspection.

Tipem · January 25, 2004 5:09AM

I would send him a link to the thread.If there was not a refund policy stated and there was a satisfaction guarantee,then I would expect a refund.After all,we are only talking about $10.I hope this guy takes the time to read this thread.If he will not refund you on a card that is obviously misgraded,I certainly would want him on my banned bidder list and would never buy from this seller.Thanks for the thread and the e-bay ID.

Vic

CW · January 25, 2004 5:24AM

I you do end up sending the card in, please let us know what
happens. I'd be very interested in hearing what PSA says or
does about this card. Thanks.

prettyboy · January 25, 2004 7:23AM

It's pretty simple with a "satisfaction guaranteed". If you're not satisfied, take the card back. If he won't give you a refund I would at least neutral his a$$.

goodriddance189 · January 25, 2004 7:47AM

other than the seller not stating any imperfections on the card beyond the grade, i dont think he should be under any obligation to refund your money. most sellers state "no returns on graded cards," which makes sense. you sould have enough faith in your grading company to purchase their cards sight unseen. if you pick up a card online that you think is misgraded, take it up with the grading company.

thefootballcardstore · January 25, 2004 8:21AM

goodriddance189 - I 100% agree, if the seller hadn't put in the satisfaction guaranteed part. Jeremy

Dhjacks · January 25, 2004 8:36AM

I've got a 1975 PSA 8 Maravich to sell you.
(Psst...Don't tell them the tip of the corner is hanging off)

You must think that would be ethical, huh?

Buyer beware?

Con 'em if you can?

BigKidAtHeart · January 25, 2004 9:51AM

Here is the auction in Question for the PSA 7 Jabbar card

Kosmo · January 25, 2004 10:24AM

I think you deserve a refund for these reasons:

-- auction states satisfaciton guaranteed;
-- there is no refund policy statement that says "no refunds"; and
-- not all PSA (or any other grading company) cards of a certain grade are of the same quality. There are strong and weak cards for the grade. If a seller does not want to give a refund he/she should state whether the card is weak, average or strong for the grade. A scan is good for centering, but most of the time does not show corner wear. I always offer refunds on graded cards I sell.

Buckwheat · January 25, 2004 11:06AM

It's a $10 card, for goodness sakes.

I agree that the seller should have given you a refund because of the satisfaction guaranteed part, but it is not worth the $10 to take the time and packaging to mail cards back and forth. Stan sells thousands of cards, and I am sure that he never saw the wrinkle.

Perhaps you should contact the FBI to start an investigation for mail fraud. Perhaps Marshall Fogel will represent you in court, if you give him a $5000 retainer.

Dhjacks · January 25, 2004 1:52PM

Buckwheat, it is trivial, you are correct.
I was originally just curious whether people who dealt in cards would normally issue a refund on a graded card if someone expressed dissatisfaction.
And as I stated, I would.

mickeys · January 25, 2004 1:54PM

Satisfaction guaranteed means seller can return any cards for any reasons. We offer same policy and I have refunded over $1000 on PSA cards last year which for the most part seemed like a whim on the part of the buyer...however, that's the meaning of the word "guarantee."

I would not buy from this seller, thanks for identifying him for the world. I wonder if the $10 he's pocketed compensates him for having 100s of active collectors put him on a no buy list. It's just stupid on the sellers part.

Our two cents.

Mickey

scottsusor · January 26, 2004 3:41AM

As somebody who's been buying and selling on eBay for several years, I'd go with the majority here and expect a return/refund from this seller. Personally, I don't put a "satisfaction guaranteed" in my eBay listings but as a sensible businessperson, I believe that its pretty much assumed. I've had only one buyer ever ask for a refund on an item. Not only did I refund his money, I let him keep the item as well because it wasn't terribly expensive. In another case, a buyer complained that the amount of postage on the package was way less than he paid. I refunded the difference but it wasn't my fault -- my private postal center put an incorrect amount on the package and it still made it to him without postage due -- weird but it happened, and my postal center refunded me the difference when I showed them a scan of the package's postage the buyer sent me. All of this is called "good business" but many sellers on eBay don't understand that very simple concept.

Scott

mcastaldi · January 26, 2004 4:53AM

From the auction. . .
-- "Have been dealing in sets and singles for 49 years, so deal in confidence as satisfaction is guaranteed."

If he's really been dealing in sets and singles for 49 years, how old does that make this guy???
Just curious. . .

Mike

grilloj39 · January 26, 2004 4:57AM

I only sell once in a blue moon, but sure I would allow a refund on a graded card, provided it hasn't been damaged or tampered with.

VintageVikes · January 26, 2004 7:29AM

he should have given the money back no question. you aren't satisfied and he states it in black and white how he "deals". i'll stay away from him too. thanks for posting.

dbj77 · January 26, 2004 1:25PM

If he guarantees satisfaction then he has to bite the bullet, however, I agree with his point that the card was graded by a third party and it's not his fault that PSA missed the wrinkle.

theBobs · January 26, 2004 11:58PM

<< It may be possible the seller did not see the wrinkle either, it seems both, I assume there were at least two, graders missed it also. >>

If someone rubs out a wrinkle, how long until it comes back?

I bought an absolutely stunning PSA 8 Red Man card about 2 years ago on ebay. It looked better upon receipt than it did on the scans. I put it away.

About 12 months after purchase, I sold it to another collector. He immediately calls me to discuss the various wrinkles on the back of the card! There were no wrinkles on the back of the card when I received it. I refunded the money. I didn't look at the card before sending it, but upon return, the back was obviously flawed. I took the issue to PSA.

They dealt with it quickly and to my satisfaction. They also requested all information on who I had purchased the card from originally, if they were the original submitter, etc. I got the very strong impression many cards submitted by this person were later bought back due to surface wrinkles suddently appearing. This seller is still active on ebay, but no longer sells PSA cards to my knowledge.

(As a side note, I have never dealt with carrollstreetkid.)

pandrews · January 27, 2004 2:55PM

<< I would not buy from this seller, thanks for identifying him for the world. I wonder if the $10 he's pocketed compensates him for having 100s of active collectors put him on a no buy list. It's just stupid on the sellers part.

Our two cents.

Mickey >>

pocketed? you make it sound like he stole.. heh.. he auctioned off a PSA 7 and he DELIVERED a PSA 7.. sounds to me like the buyer needs to take it up with PSA if he isnt satisfied.. the buyer isn't satisfied with the deal? or with PSA grading standards? 2 different things..

Wabittwax · January 28, 2004 12:00AM

Here's a good example of how good customer service makes sense.

A couple months ago I listed a card on Ebay that sold for around $35. The buyer sent me the check but for some reason it got shuffled around in some papers on my desk and I never sent the card out. About a month later, I was auctioning some more cards and listed it again. Somebody hit the Buy it Now on it within hours of me listing it and paid through paypal. The original buyer emailed me asking if I sent the card. Needless to say, I was in quite a spot and was in danger of a negative and a loss of a customer. I explained honestly what happen and took full responsibility without making any excuses. I refunded all of his money and for his trouble, I promised to send him another PSA 9 that he needed for his set for free. I had some more nice raw to send in so I told him it may take a month or two. 2 months later, I emailed him offering him the new card for free even though I could have easily ignored it since he never emailed me about the new PSA 9, but I wanted to keep my word.

Anyways, he ended up spending another $240 on more cards from my new submission plus I'm sure we'll do business sometime in the future. All of which wouldn't have happened if he walked away mad. A $35 loss once will lead to many more $$$ in the future. A lesson to all sellers.

1954 · January 28, 2004 12:42AM

I definately would raise a stink about this and I would ruin this guy. I mean it is over $10 whole dollars. I think that anytime someone has done you wrong because a third party misgraded a card, you should have the whole world know about you being a bad person. I also think that threads like this are much more important to discuss than let's say card collecting. Everyone on this board needs to write their own thread on who to avoid and who has done you wrong today article. It will be so exciting to read.
Mickeys Sportscards- do you want me to discuss what you have done wrong to me over the past year? Should I let the whole world know that you have upset me? I don't think I will go that low. Becareful what you wish!!!!

Shane Leonard

pandrews · January 28, 2004 2:35AM

<< I definately would raise a stink about this and I would ruin this guy. I mean it is over $10 whole dollars. I think that anytime someone has done you wrong because a third party misgraded a card, you should have the whole world know about you being a bad person. I also think that threads like this are much more important to discuss than let's say card collecting. Everyone on this board needs to write their own thread on who to avoid and who has done you wrong today article. It will be so exciting to read.
Mickeys Sportscards- do you want me to discuss what you have done wrong to me over the past year? Should I let the whole world know that you have upset me? I don't think I will go that low. Becareful what you wish!!!!

Shane Leonard >>

i agree.. i think this dude is out of line complaining about his PSA 7.. thats what he bought, thats what he GOT.. maybe he should start buying BGS or another grading company if he doesnt like PSA 7's..

Dhjacks · January 28, 2004 2:55AM

Shane and pandrews ,
So I guess in fewer words, the two of you would not refund on a graded card in that instance. That was my question.
And, as I mentioned, I've never complained about the condition f a graded card before.

I've seen many references to the fact that it was just a $10 card. You don't seem to grasp that this is part of the issue with me. What if I had a legitimate problem with this seller for $1,000. It's easy to be a boy-scout when there is very little on the line. This guy couldn't back up his 'satisfaction guaranteed' even for a $10 refund.

And I appreciate the advice on what I can and cannot post.

Don

pandrews · January 28, 2004 4:22AM

<< Shane and pandrews ,
So I guess in fewer words, the two of you would not refund on a graded card in that instance. That was my question.
And, as I mentioned, I've never complained about the condition f a graded card before.

I've seen many references to the fact that it was just a $10 card. You don't seem to grasp that this is part of the issue with me. What if I had a legitimate problem with this seller for $1,000. It's easy to be a boy-scout when there is very little on the line. This guy couldn't back up his 'satisfaction guaranteed' even for a $10 refund.

And I appreciate the advice on what I can and cannot post.

Don >>

all i'm saying is that I've always thought the purpose of a 3rd party grader is to let you know what you're getting without the sellers overhyping condition of his card, and without the buyers downplaying the condition.

Realistically, I should be able to put a PSA 7 1962 Topps Hank Aaron on ebay with just a scan, and without any description at all except for "PSA 7 1962 Topps Hank Aaron serial #XXXXXXX" and maybe a "please see scans".. I shouldnt have to explain WHY it was graded a PSA 7.. Either you trust the 3rd party grading company, or you dont. Unless this seller is re-sealing slabs or something, I dont think he shouldve ever been asked for a refund. Does he sell only graded cards or raw cards also? I CAN see how he would guarantee satisfaction on graded cards, because he would never expect to be faulted for a PSA Grading error.. he doesn't grade for PSA. What would you pay for the card RAW? Did you pay a premium for the PSA label? if so, you must trust PSA judgement.

Cut the dealer some slack, take it up with PSA.

1954 · January 28, 2004 4:42AM

Don-
You are more than welcome to post anything that you want to on this board . The fact that you specifically pointed out the item and seller is the issue. You have free speech just like the rest of us. I give refunds to every ungraded card that is not exceptable to customers that are unhappy, however you bought a PSA 7 card from this guy. He paid to have it graded, you paid him for the grade it received. Your issue should not be with him, but PSA. I can't tell you how many times I have bought a raw card on Ebay because it was over graded or it was trimmed. For something like $10 I would be more willing to eat the $10 than to call the guy up. I understand that he says he will give a refund if not happy, but this is over the edge in my opinion. Why not put the card up on Ebay yourself and sell it?
If it was a $800 card and it had small crease in it, I would take it to PSA for compensation for that misrepresentation. The real issue is the way you broadcasted this out for all to KNOW. If everyone did this no one would have a good reputation because no one is perfect. The seller did not do anything wrong in this instance and it is not worth discussing publically to this level.

1954

1420sports · January 28, 2004 4:45AM

Cut the dealer some slack, take it up with PSA.

If I bought a card from a PSA dealer, then I would expect the dealer to allow returns. I had to return one card in the past, and that dealer had no problem. In this situation, I would hold the seller responsible to allow a refund if the card was a hundred dollar card. Then the whole process and the time it took would be worth it.

qmayer · January 28, 2004 4:50AM

As mentioned before, the deal here is that the seller offered a satisfaction guarantee and the buyer is not satisfied. We all know that all PSA 7s are not equal. If the seller has a "satisfaction guarantee" written in his auction terms then he/she needs to be willing and able to honor it. If the seller can't, then shouldn't put it in the auction terms. He is breaking his contract. Maybe eBay will help you out if you're still willing to go that far.

Justin

Dhjacks · January 28, 2004 6:54AM

1954,
Thank you for the civil reply. I respect your opinion. Please realize that people making mistakes (not perfect) is not the issue. I make more than my share of mistakes. The issue was really whether a graded card absolves a seller from any need to refund an unhappy customer based on the condition of the card. I think the consensus is that it is up to the seller, but that it should be spelled out in advance. This seller spelled it out...'satisfaction guaranteed' and then failed IMO to live up to that promise. It's also true that he may have just had a bad day.
I think this has been beaten into the ground enough. I also will reserve my topics for more positive messages in the future.Thank you

1954 · January 28, 2004 7:38AM

Resolved.

Would you refund on a graded card?

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