The USPS Lost An Isured Coin That I Mailed And The Buyer Refuses To Sign The 2nd USPS Claim Form

WWW

Here's an eBay seller's horror story.

A coin I sold on eBay and shipped via USPS Insured mail was lost by the USPS. The buyer demanded an immediate refund and made several veiled threats to me. I told him that I would pay him back as soon as the USPS honored the claim as I had no way of knowing if indeed it had been delivered, misdirected or lost. Normally I would have reimbursed him upon receipt of his signed claim form, but he was way out of line with his accusations towards me, so I decided to make him wait. This of course made him even more angry, but he complied but he also sent me several more threatening E-mails in the meantime demanding that I pay him back immediately via PayPal. So anyway, I send him the PS form 1000 which he signed and dated 20 days from the date of my mailing of the coin to him. And more belligerent E-mails from him soon follow. After I submit this form to the USPS, they snail mail me back with the following:

"Proof of Loss signed & dated at least 30 days from the date of mailing from the addressee.
Claim form PS Form 1000 has been signed by the addressee, but on 12-30-03 & this parcel
was mailed on 12-10-03. This is only 20 days."

So I send another E-mail to the buyer stating that he will have to sign another claim form in order for me to proceed. Here is his response:

"Insured mail is scaned from point to point,check with your post office.My post office has already checked and there are no packages from you.
I signed one form for you to recover the money,that is all I'm going to sign.So,don't send me any additional forms.
Again,you now only have 12 hrs.to credit my account or I will contact my bank to do a charge back ,file a complaint with Ebay,and issue you negitive feedback.You have no idea who you are dealing with.Consider this my final word."

Since then he has neg'd me on eBay and filed a fraudulent complaint about me to eBay.

So I ask you all; What would you have done in my place?

FC57Coins

Bill - knowing you and how you deal I think you did exactly right and make this idiot wait.

JMOORE

You have no idea who you are dealing with

Why do they ALL say that..............

poptopsRus

I've done the same thing, and the exact same thing happed to me except Paypal gave him his money back. 3 months later I got my money back from the USPS.

Wolf359

Square Trade...pay $20 to remove the feedback.

BigD5

I wouldn't deal with him. I'd inform him that the claim process is dictated by the USPS, and not me, and if he didn't want to do his part in filing the claim, fine. That's his perrogative. I'll keep his money, and the coin will be lost.
I would go to my PO and talk with the Postmaster and explain the situation and solicit advice or commentary from their mindset of looking at this situation.

"MY post office checked, and there is no package from you"

Also, I would have them do a manual check of the insurance number for your package (they can do this) and see what comes up. It should show when the package left your PO, and when it arrived at the buyer's PO, and possibly more information. You can't get that information online. It looks like he may have had his PO do this, and nothing came up for this package, which would be odd, to say the least. Possibly the package was never scanned in? A possibility.
From the buyers response, it would seem they have something to hide, and my assumption would be the package did indeed land to him.

coinlieutenant

Boy, it sure has gotten ugly hasnt it...?

You and I have had numerous conversations about this slug so I wont say much more...

He is wrong though about the post office having a record of stuff sent. They dont track insured mail like that... My registered package from NGC the other day didnt enter the system until it got to my hometown post office!!! 14 days after mailing!!!

Feel your pain Bill...

John

MFH

I have had a similiar situation, but, never gave the seller a hard time about it. If the USPS lost the insured package, and all the necessary postal forms are completed on the 21st day of the loss, the seller usually reimburses the buyer and then has to wait for the USPS to reimburse him.

I was sent a couple of coins on approval, sent one of them back, package was lost, I had to pay the seller for the lost coin, and I was finally reimbursed. Now, I only send Registered Mail, and have never lost another shipment.

solid

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it ultimately the buyer's responsibility to
file the claim and collect his money from the USPS for lost merchandise?

Isn't the seller's part of the contract fulfilled when they ship the coin?

I believe either side can initiate the process, but for the seller to do so
is providing service above and beyond the call, particularly if you are
refunding the customer's money before you receive payment for the loss
from the USPS.

Ken

geb209

Scan the snail mail letter from USPS and email it to him. Then ask him if he wants to sign another one or not.

Now, the negative feedback. What is the great big hoopla over negative feedback? Who really cares about it? It's not like you guys have done one or two transactions and have a negative rating. I would think that one or two negatives every now and then don't affect your business in any manner.

Finally, about this negative feedback. Personally, I think it's justified. Once the auction closed, a contract was formed and you were responsible to deliver the coin to the buyer. An auction isn't FOB shipping point. Your responsibility doens't end simply by delivering the coin to a common carrier. If the coin isn't delivered, you should get a negative. If the coin that is received wasn't accurately described (e.g., it's been cleaned and you somehow neglected to mention it), you're getting a negative. Even if you promptly refund the money, I think you should get a negative. The transaction didn't close as was required by contract. Get over it.

XpipedreamR

I hope you at least gave this d**k a neg as well.

geb209

<< <i>Correct me if I'm wrong, but ... sn't the seller's part of the contract fulfilled when they ship the coin? >>



Don't think so. The auction contract isn't FOB shipping point. The seller is required to deliver the coin to the buyer.

BigD5

The USPS doesn't "formally" track insured packages, BUT they do and can give you a record of where the package went. I have had them look up 4 insured packages for me that were very late on arriving to their destination, believed lost, but indeed just slow.
Of course, it you go in there ranting and raving that they are all overpaid, lazy SOB's, you aren't going to go very far with this request.
Again, I've had my PO do this for me on a few occasions, and it does and will show a brief history of the packages whereabouts. It's a starting point.

mdwoods

You acted properly WWW. Unfortunately you are dealing with a jerk.

CaptainRon

The seller is the one that is given the insured mail receipt, as well as being the one to give the package an insured value, hence I believe it to be the sellers responsibilty to file the claim. Honestly if I was the customer I would be quite pissed to, being made to wait. You are providing a service, that service is to make that customer happy so he will return, you did not do that, instead you acted just as bad IMO. But then again I don't know what all he said to ya

What if someone paid you in moneyorder that was sent to you. The letter never arrived, and the buyer said well you have to wait until I can process my claim with the money order people before the buyer sends you money again. Would you be upset, or think he was full of crap.

BigD5

geb209, Excuse me? WWW goes to the PO after receiving the monies and ships the coin, and he deserves a NEG? Because there was a snafu with the PO, and it had presumably nothing to do with WWW?
I'll go along with my responsibility as a seller doesn't end with the delivery of the item to a common carrier, but what in the world do you expect a seller to do? Accompany the friggin mail person to your home? At a certain point WWW loses responsibility of this situation, and COMMON SENSE should allow the buyer to UNDERSTAND that human errors occur, mailed items get lost, and as long as WWW is doing whatever he can on his end to help recoup either the item, or the buyers money that he is doing all humanly possible to get this situation resolved.
I say the buyer is an ignorant ass, and if he can't understand that there is a process that has to be completed, that requires his participation, to retrieve his monies, then he deserves the empty wallet he will be holding, and won't have anyone to blame but his own ignorant *ss.

LovethoseIndians

You did everything you could do. Looking at it from his end what I see is "angered" response probably due to the thought he was being ripped off by a "e-bay scam seller" as there are plenty of those out there (ryandavidcoins). He needs to chill out and be patient as you have done your leg work and are only presenting him with info given to you from the USPS.

Bottom line if he continues to harass, turn HIM in to e-bay!

LALASD4

The merchandise belongs to the buyer once it is shipped. If it is lost, the buyer needs to file a claim with the insurance company. The seller, if he had not paid for the merchandise already, has to pay the seller's invoice than deal with the insurance claim. That is the standard business practice.

Bikingnut

Even if you promptly refund the money, I think you should get a negative.



If the coin isn't delivered, you should get a negative.

Sorry, but I disagree. You have no control over what the carrier does with the package. You may as well deliver the package to the buyers door personnaly. If it gets lost and you do decide to refund the buyers money right away, what's the negative for? Just because you're ticked off that the coin was lost in the mail, doesn't give you the right to take it out on the seller, especially if they refund your money.

I think WWW did everything right on his part. JMO.

ricardouno

WWW,

Here are some suggestions for now and the future:

ALWAYS use Delivery Confirmation ( just 45 cents extra for the green label ) with insured items. The important thing is that you can easily track ( on the USPS website) the item including whether it was delivered (scanned) at the destination post office. If your buyer says they did not receive the package you can go to the website and research the problem. By providing your buyer with the delivery confirmation number they can also confirm that you did indeed send it on a certain date as well as verify whether or not their post office received it.

Yes, the post office does not consider a package lost until 30 after it has been mailed. Next time just inform the buyer of this and explain that as soon as the post office declares it possibly lost ( until that time it is felt to be delayed ) you will be sending the appropriate forms to the buyer for processing. On doing this advise the buyer that as soon as the forms are properly filled out and signed by them and then accepted by the postal officer you will re-imburse them ( I believe this is safe as you are properly insured for this amount if you hold all the proper documentation regarding the sale price and the postal insurance record slip ).

Retain both the printed receipt ( usually white) for your mailing and the blue insurance and green delivery confirmation forms. If your buyer doubts you mailed the item in the first place ( especially if you didn't use delivery confirmation), just scan these ( they are postally stamped and dated and show your buyer's shipping address / zip code ) and email this "proof" to the buyer. Retaining all these forms is important from your end as it helps a great deal when you file your claim with the post office ( you can photocopy all of these forms on a single piece of paper).

I hope this information helps. I this the important thing is to use delivery confirmation. That has been a life-saver for me in the rare event of a lost of delayed mailing.

Best of luck!

Ricardo

paigowjohnny

<< <i>If it is lost, the buyer needs to file a claim with the insurance company. >>


The Postal Service requires the buyer of the insurance to initiate the claim....in this case WWW.
My first experience at lost mail and insurance was as a buyer. I drove Selby Ungar (King of Carson City) crazy for a while about a lost GSA Morgan..but the proper procedures were followed, Selby patiently reassured me and initiated the claim, and although it took time to get thru the Post Office bureaucracy...he got the money and we worked it out.
As for giving the guy an immediate refund, and as the seller being on the hook for the Postal refund.....well if I were the seller and knew the guy on the other end/had done business before and generally liked the guy...maybe I would give an immediate refund as a friendly gesture...but selling stuff ultimately is business, not a popularity contest or charity. WWW had absolutely no responsibility to give an immediate refund and I think handled this transaction professionally and correctly.
If you get any stink from ebay about his claim...sounds like you've got the appropriate documentation to throw it back in his face.

LincolnCentMan

Hey man, you dont make the rules. You follow them. In the same way, he cant just start making his terms and conditions. The USPS says you have to wait 30 days to file a claim, and that's the way it is. Bottom line, it's his money that is going to be returned upon conmpletion of the claim. If he's so stupid to not follow the USPS rules and sign the form after the required time has passed, then he's refusing to get his refund.

Grandma always said you cant win an argument with an idiot. But if you just lay it out for him and let him make his choice (sign the paper and get the refund in due coarse, or dont sign the paper and the insurance - and consequently the refund - will not be processed), that might be the best option.

David

ms70

Post his eBay ID so he can be added to my eBay blocked bidders list.

CoinHusker

Amen on the neccessity of Delivery Confirmation. I've used as a buyer and a seller. As a seller I provide the # to the buyer so they can track the item as well. As a buyer, I request the service an each and every purchase I make so I can track the item. On the USPS website the # provides information as to when the item was first mailed, and at each of it's stops along the way to it's desitnation as well as a delivery date and time. ie. I had purchased an item and never received it. I used the delivery confirmation # the seller gave me and confirmed it made it to the Des Moines procesing center but never came back out. I was satisfied, seller was satisfied and I got my refund, he got his +feedback and we all slept better at night because of Delivery Confirmation. It's cheap peace of mind at .45

WWW

Thank you all for your words of advice. This insurance thing is obviously a very difficult issue to come to grips with.
I have tried very hard to make this guy happy. PM me if you want his ID as I don't feel comfortable doing that here.

Neptune

Be sure to save all of his rude emails to be given to whoever may need them to cover your end . . eBay, etc. I probably would have refunded the Buyer's money if he threatened neg, etc. I think that good feedback is very important, and I think that geb209 is wrong. I would definitely neg him saying "Pckg. lost & Buyer refused to cooperate with USPS process.". On you neg, I would also do same. eBay probs can turn into a giant hassle.

Boom

Square Trade Mediation Services is a go ONLY if BOTH parties agree to mediation! Delivery Confirmation is not all it is cracked up to be-it only means that it , indeed, was delivered SOMEWHERE! The second the insured package leaves your hands and goes into the hands of the USPS it then becomes their problem.....NOT YOURS!

cosmicdebris

Delivery Confirmation ( just 45 cents extra for the green label ) does not always work. There is no signature. Once the Mailman says he delivered the package does not mean it ever got into your hands. I have had packages with delivery confrmation left for me in the doorway of the condo that I never got. Seller said too bad Post Office says they delivered not my problem your lost.

YOU HAVE TO USE SIGNATURE CONFIRMATION TO BE SURE.

As for your problem. I would have told the guy to go f*%$ himself. I am not responible for the Post Office loosing your stuff. You are waiting for them to process things not me.

itsnotjustme

geb209--strongly disagree that the seller deserves a neg. The seller made good faith effort. The package was insured. The PO should be able to verify it was mailed and not delivered. The purchaser must sign the insurance claim form at least 30 days after the shipping date. If the buyer refuses to complete a step required to make a claim, maybe the buyer is concerned about signing a fraudulent statement or is just an A-hole.

tlhoy

Square Trade Mediation Services is a go ONLY if BOTH parties agree to mediation!
WRONG!
If the buyer does not answer to mediation, the feedback is removed automatically! I've done this & it works.
Glenn

BAJJERFAN

You would think that as many times as this and similar scenarios have appeared on these boards that some legal beagle would lay out exactly what each party to the transaction is obligated to and responsible for. Also when does each party's responsibilty and obligations end. This has got to be simple contract law.
It seems tho that you have run into one of those difficult to please A$$holes that we all run into sooner or later.

segoja

No way does the seller deserve a neg for mailing the coin and the PO not delivering it.

I would always err on the side of caution. If someone demanded the refund and refused to sign an affidavit saying the coin was lost, I would begin to read fraud. The PO does not mess around, and if you fake these things you're in big trouble.

I had a similar situation that just resolved yesterday, although both parties were not hot headed about it. The seller does have to initiate the claim. I did so, and as soon as the PO verified that the buyer signed it, I sent him a full refund including postage. I also sent him a free proof half for his patience. Both parties received positive feedback.

I'd like other opinions on paypal and buyer protection if the seller has proof of mailing. How easy is it for the buyer to get his funds back if the seller proves he mailed the coin but buyer says it never arrived?

Wil

Error on the side of self preservation!

Some folks will try and scam you via the guilt trip, or with the "customer is always right" / "your service stinks" line of B.S.
I had a guy claim his item was never delivered and good thing it was insured too. I went as far as sending him a USPS insurance claim form with return postage, but the guy just fell off the face of the earth. At least with our deal! I monitered his buying / selling practices so I knew he was still around. He just never followed through/ never returned emails. He either received it in the first place and was looking for a sucker, or it was received late. Never will know.
From now on just put a "lost item/insurance time frame for recovery" clause in your auction. That may help.

wil

wjd283

If he's already neg'd you and wont sign another slip he's left you no other option than to say F@#$'im.
In my opinion you do not deserve a neg.I'd neg'im back and let him be out his $.(if he really is)

Am currently in a 30 day waiting period w/a buyer myself.I emailed him & told him what the P.O. requires and it has'nt gotten ugly yet.Still have my fingers crossed,though.Wish this thread would've been a few weeks earlier

nencoin

And yet another reason very clearly illustrating why a seller should not leave feedback until the transaction is complete. Sorry to dredge this up again, but hopefully some sellers will begin to see the logic behind this, and stop leaving positive feedback too soon.

chris

ksteelheader

I personally use signature confirmation on any item over $50....Ken

anoldgoat

Yes nencoin there are some bad eggs out there but I won't hold the magority responsible for the few.

WWW - If you can't get the neg removed then leave the FB Neptune sujested. I disregard the uncalled for neg's and am more impressed with a seller that handles it well in thier response to it.