All time Green Bay Packer Greats set

Davemri · January 21, 2004 9:18AM

I just wanted to get some thoughts on this set Ive created. I am not a huge Packer fan, but I think they are one of the greatest organizations in professional sports. I think they deserve a set on the registry. I created this set with all the Hall of Famers Rookies along with Reggie White and Brett Favre (Future HOF'ers). Please let me know if you would like any changes before being submitted for consideration.

Card -----------------------------------------------------SMR PSA 8 ------------------------ Weighting

1935 National Chicle Clark Hinkle------------------------1250 ----------------------10
1950 Bowman Tony Canadeo ------------------------150----------------------- 3
1955 Topps AA Don Hutson---------------------------- 350 ------------------------- 5
1955 Bowman Jim Ringo -------------------------------90 ------------------------- 2
1957 Topps Paul Hornung ----------------------------1125 -------------------------- 10
1957 Topps Bart Starr -------------------------------1150 --------------------------10
1959 Topps Jim Taylor --------------------------------- 65 ------------------------------2
1960 Topps Forrest Gregg ------------------------- 75------------------------------ 2
1961 Topps Henry Jordan --------------------------- 55------------------------------- 2
1963 Topps Willie Wood -------------------------- 60 ------------------------------ 2
1963 Topps Ray Nitschke -------------------------165-----------------------------3
1964 Philadelphia Herb Adderley-----------------------60-----------------------------2
1964 Philadelphia Willie Davis ---------------------- 60------------------------------2
1979 Topps James Lofton ----------------------------18-----------------------------1
1984 Topps USFL Reggie White --------------------- 37------------------------------1
1991 Stadium Club Brett Favre -----------------------36-------------------------------1

Any thoughts are welcome.
Thanks,

Dave

lommer · January 22, 2004 12:12AM

Great idea!

How about Vince Lombardi? Maybe his "rookie" from 64 Philly or his 1990 Score card? Then there's 2 players who helped bring the Pack back in the 90's: Sterling Sharpe and LeRoy Butler. I know these 2 probably aren't Pro Bowl bound, but I think they definitely belong in an All-Time Packer Greats set.

Chad

dbj77 · January 22, 2004 12:40AM

I would agree with adding Sharpe to the list.

JasP24 · January 22, 2004 3:28AM

If you are trying to keep it a HOFer only type set, then I would wait on adding Butler or Sharpe. If this set is meant to be more like the All-Time Steelers set, with Great players regardless of HOF status, then there are a few others to consider.

Max McGee
Jerry Kramer
Sterling Sharpe
Leroy Butler

I'm sure there are a few more..

Would be nice to see some other ALL-TIME great Team set other than just the Steelers set. There is a Cowboys set, but it is pretty ridiculous(Every RC of every Cowboy player). I have tried, unsuccessfully, to get that set changed.

I'll keep an eye out for the new set!

Jason

wolfbear · January 22, 2004 4:07AM

How about using Jim Taylor's 1961 Topps or Fleer card
since they're the first ones that he's actually on ?

Seems silly to regard his 1959 card as his 'rookie' card when the photo is of someone else ...

NickM · January 22, 2004 5:04AM

What about the Lake to Lake cards of some of the Packer greats that predated their first Topps or Philadelphia cards by years?

I would also add Ahman Green to the list.

Nick

Golfcollector · January 22, 2004 5:33AM

May have to give Ahman Green some consideration although he has only been there a few years.....

Davalillo · January 22, 2004 5:48AM

Certainly Jerry Kramer should be included.

Lake-to-Lake rookie cards should be used if they precede the first topps or fleer.

Jim

Stonegate · January 22, 2004 7:23AM

Hi Dave,

Excellent idea! In addition to your list (plus Vince Lombardi) there are these Packers in the NFL Hall of Fame as well:

Curly Lambeau
Mike Michalske
Robert "Cal" Hubbard
Johnny "Blood" McNally
Arnie Herber

All of them can be found in the 1974 and 1975 Fleer Hall of Fame set and most also in the 1963 Stancraft Playing Card set as well. Probably in more, too, but I haven't checked the Beckett site and done a full search on their cards.

In addition, there are five other Hall of Famers that played at least one season for the Packers that you might want to include their Packer year card: Len Ford, Ted Hendricks, Walt Kiesling, Jan Stenerud, and Emlen Tunnel.

Cheers,
Kevin

sixdart · January 22, 2004 9:41AM

If these are the all-time Packer greats ... I would include TE Paul Coffman and give consideration to QB Lynn Dickey. Lynn would still have most single-season team passing records if it were not for Brett Favre. I am partial to the Dickey, Lofton, Coffman and Jefferson late '70s/mid '80s era.

Davalillo · January 22, 2004 9:46AM

If we let these guys in, then we have to open it up to Fuzzy Thurston, Dave Robinson, Boyd Dowler and Marv Fleming.

NickM · January 22, 2004 10:35AM

I would certainly include Thurston and Dowler. Both are legends from the Packers greatest days.

Nick

Davemri · January 23, 2004 10:00AM

Just a couple things...
1. I wanted to keep this set at a reasonalbe size. If I choose many of the other players that have been listed, it is opening the door to include a bunch of "mediocre" players. I want this to be a All time greats set and I believe that the HOF players are the most deserving.

2. As for the Lake to Lake cards, I wanted to use the same criteria that was used for the NFL HOF rookie set. These RC cards were chosen and agreed upon by many of the football collectors. The Lake to Lake cards are much harder to obtain and in fact, I have never heard of or seen one.

3. Even though Jim Taylors rc doesnt picture him, it is still considered his true RC card. Actually I didnt even know that it wasnt him until this thread. Anyway, anyone know who the player is that is pictured, or the story of this card?

4. As for choosing more recent players, I think they need to reach HOF status before being considered. (Sharpe, Butler, Green)

5. Stonegate...In response to your post. I know there are other players in the HOF, but, just like the HOF RC set, I chose not to include players with no cards produced during their playing career. I also wanted to use the players that are known as great Packers, not those that made a one or two year cameo appearance. Just like I would not consider Joe Namath to be one of the All time great Rams even though he played one year for them.

Thank you everyone for your responses. Any other comments or suggestions? I think the only change I am thinking about is adding a 64 philadelphia Packers Play card with Lombardi on it. Should I add this card??

Dave

NickM · January 23, 2004 12:56PM

Dave - I'm in agreement that it should only include players who are known for their time with the Packers, but a non-HOF retired player who was a major star with the team for most of his career is also a worthy inclusion. For the Packers, Kramer, Thurston, Sharpe, and Dowler are the 4 biggest such names. Among current players, Green now holds many of the Packers all-time rushing records, making him a logical choice.
The Lake to Lake cards are not all that easy to find, but they can be found cheaply - I picked up very nice Adderly and Gregg cards from '61 for about $5 plus shipping apiece - they have white lines on the sides which I don't know how PSA would grade (could get a MC, PD, or be ignored), but would probably be at least qualified PSA 7s. One of the things that make these tougher to find is that sellers are not consistent in their listings.
The Jim Taylor was a Cardinals player of the same name.
I would add the Play card.

Nick

Davalillo · January 23, 2004 1:00PM

Dave,

I agree with every single one of Nick's points.

Jim

Stonegate · January 23, 2004 1:09PM

Shoot, Nick beat me to it regarding the Jim Taylor cards. Here's a little more info:

In the 1959 Topps Set Jim Taylor of the Green Bay Packers is card #155 and has the correct info on the back and label on the front. However, the picture is of St. Louis Cardinal linebacker Jim Taylor -- shown in his Cardinal red jersey (duh, Topps!). You think they would have caught it the next year in 1960, but once again, this time on card #52, Jim Taylor of the Packers (with the front label in the football and the info on the back correct) is portrayed with another red-jerseyed photo of Jim Taylor of the St. Louis Cardinals....

Kevin

ironranger · January 23, 2004 10:53PM

I'll add my two cents as well..

Adding the '64 Lombardi card is a must. I would also agree with Wolfbear and a couple of others that Jim Taylor's 61 Topps or Fleer card is a much better alternative to his 59 "rookie card". I cringe whenever I see the '59 and '60 cards.

I would strongly consider adding Jerry Kramer's 59 Topps card. He is not in the HOF, but should be.

I would stay away from some of the other HOF's that played only a season or two in Green Bay.

An interesting alternative would be to add the team cards available from the Championship years (61, 62, 65, 66, 67).

murcerfan · January 24, 2004 12:14AM

I take it this set is being designed as a rookie card set ??
and as such you might want to label it that.
personally I'm in the minority and never have put much premium on, nor collected rookie cards.
that being said......why not include any cards from the Packers most prolific years?
Taylor for example was league MVP and set rushing records in 1962 (a year that green Bay won a Championship, yet is not represented in your set) ; both his '62 topps and '63 Kahn's are highly coveted based on that fact and visually more attractive than a picture of somebody else. I would include some of the classic cards that are not simply "the first", but then again I don't participate in these auxilliary/contrived sets

........just a thought

grilloj39 · January 24, 2004 12:34AM

Dave...your set is fine, but it is a "all time greats" set and not just strictly a "HOF" set. So I agree with others that players such as thurston and kramer deserve consideration. But it is almost an impossible tasks to put together an all-time greats set that everyone is going to agree with. The term "all time greats" is subjective, versus "HOF" which is more objective.

I am probably in the minority here, but I don't believe players such as James Loften for example should be included. He compiled many of his statistics with the Buffalo Bills as well. I would like to keep it to players who played most of their career (and I am not talking 60-70 percent, more like 90+ percent) with one team only.

Davemri · January 24, 2004 12:47AM

I took the players from this webpage. I included only the players that are defined as having a significant contribution to the team (these are the one's in bold) Lofton is listed as such, that is why I included him.

Yes I agree that everyone wants different players added. However, I believe that HOF'ers are a very cut and dry way of doing it. If Jerry Kramer gets enshrined, then he should be added.

As for the RC cards, I want to stay consistent as I said earlier. As most of you know, I only collect RC's. Although the Lake to Lake cards could be included, I do not want to collect 2 Rookie cards of the same player (One for the HOF RC set and one for the Packers set). That is too confusing having for example, a USFL vs Topps RC for Jim kelly. (USFL for the QB set and the Topps for the HOF set) I would like these sets to be more consistent.

dave

grilloj39 · January 24, 2004 12:57AM

Dave...your reply makes perfectly great sense....I like the idea of keeping it objective and cut and dry...HOF's only, RCs only.

JasP24 · January 24, 2004 1:11AM

Dave, I think the set you are looking to create is more in line with the HOF Chicago Bears set. A list of ONLY HOFers. An "All-Time" Greats set should be a more flexible set. Most teams have many other "great" players who aren't in the HOF, as well as current players who will one day be enshrined.

You should submit your set as a HOF set, and thus will be listed on the Registry under the HOF category, and not the Key Card set category. I only collect RCs as well, but not limited to ONLY HOFers...I like having cards of the great/memorable players, HOF or not. The All-Time Steelers set is a great example of an "All-Time Great" set. Rocky Bleier, LC Greenwood, Donnie Shell...Great players who havent found their way into the Hall yet, but RCs worthy of collecting because of what they meant to their teams...

The fact that Jerry Kramer is still not a Hall of Famer is just ridiculous...Someone needs to shake the Seniors Committee and get the guy on the ballot...If Bob Hayes can get on who was never a finalist for the Hall before, then Kramer should be on it. He was a finalist 10 times...

In my opinion, the Lombardi card SHOULD be added. He IS the Packers...And No Lake to Lake...Start adding Regional Issues to these types of sets and it could get crazy trying to figure out which card is the true RC. Beckett nor PSA SMR nor any other publication that I am aware of recognize regional issued cards as RCs or even XRC's like the USFL cards. The USFL cards were at least a National release, and should be included.(They shoulda been on the NFL HOF RC set too!!..lol)

Look forward to adding my cards to the new set once it is available!

Jason

AlanAllen · January 24, 2004 3:07AM

I realize this won't play into your decision, but FYI here are the first issued and first gradable cards of some of the other guys mentioned (ties broken by BV):

Player.....................First Card.......................................First Gradable Card..............Mainstream RC
HERB ADDERLEY.....1961 Packers Lake to Lake............1961 Packers Lake to Lake..1964 Philadelphia
LEROY BUTLER........1990 Action Packed RU..................1990 Action Packed RU........1990 Action Packed RU
AHMAN GREEN........1998 SP Authentic.........................1998 SP Authentic................1998 SP Authentic
ARNIE HERBER........1933 Diamond Matchbooks Silver..1975 Fleer Hall of Fame........N/A
CAL HUBBARD.........1933 Diamond Matchbooks Silver..1974 Fleer Hall of Fame........N/A
JERRY KRAMER........1959 Topps....................................1959 Topps..........................1959 Topps
CURLY LAMBEAU.....1963 Stancraft Playing Cards.........1963 Stancraft Playing CardsN/A
VINCE LOMBARDI....1957 Giants Team Issue................1957 Giants Team Issue*....1964 Philadelphia
MAX MCGEE............1959 Topps....................................1959 Topps..........................1959 Topps
BLOOD MCNALLY.....1934 Diamond Matchbooks............1963 Stancraft Playing CardsN/A
MIKE MICHALSKE 1975 Fleer Hall of Fame..................1975 Fleer Hall of Fame........N/A
RAY NITSCHKE.........1961 Packers Lake to Lake............1961 Packers Lake to Lake..1963 Topps
STERLING SHARPE..1989 Score Supplemental...............1989 Score Supplemental....1989 Score Supplemental
WILLIE WOOD........1961 Packers Lake to Lake.............1961 Packers Lake to Lake..1963 Topps

*None have been graded, but they fit the size requirements.

FYI I just popped 10's for Lambeau's and McNally's 1963 Stancrafts, but they're staying in my collection

Joe

murcerfan · January 25, 2004 1:09AM

Oh, I see.
you were looking to make another set out of the cards you already have.
interesting concept, I never would have thought to do that.

GoSoxBoSox · January 25, 2004 5:29AM

Ahman Green
Coach Holmgren
Jerry Kramer
Curly Lambeau
James Lofton
Vince Lombardi
Mike Michalske
Robert "Cal" Hubbard
Johnny "Blood" McNally
Arnie Herber

Hold out White and Sharpe. They didn't play long enough on the Pack.

sixdart · January 25, 2004 6:41AM

Sterling only played with the Packers and retired early because of injury ... he should definitely be on the list. Were you thinking about Shannon Sharpe?

Southsider · January 26, 2004 12:21AM

I had the same dilemma when I requested the HOF Chicago Bears RC set. I wanted to do an "All-Time" greats but I couldn't figure out the criteria. I grew up watching the Bears in the early 80's, so my "greats" might have been skewed. I would have liked to include Jim McMahon, Richard Dent, Gary Fencik, and some others, but eventually I settled on using HOF players only.

JasP24 · January 26, 2004 12:55AM

I have actually been thinking of putting together a few "All-Time Greats" sets for awhile now. Did a few hours of research, and came up with all-time teams for the Dolphins, 49ers, Cowboys, Raiders, Rams, and Redskins...I didnt do it for the Packers, Bears or Steelers because there are already similar sets, or in Dave's case, a similar set pending.

These teams will contain the HOFers of course, but also other players who were "significant" contibuters of the teams success. Guys who were NFL MVP's, or led the league in something a couple of times or had multiple Pro Bowls for that team qualified for the set.

I used this link:

NFL All-Time Great Franchise Teams

To help identify who the great players were for each position, then weeded out the guys who weren't significant in one of the ways listed above.

I submitted the request to PSA yesterday along with a weighted Excel spreadsheet for each, so hopefully they will be up and running in the next couple of weeks. If anyone wants me to put together an "All-Time" Team set for a team not listed above let me know. Or you can use the link above to do the research yourself.

Jason

NickM · January 26, 2004 5:23AM

JasP - who is on your all-time Raiders team?

Nick

JasP24 · January 26, 2004 9:12AM

Did quite a bit of digging on the raiders actually, and here's what I came up with...

Card Name SMR Weight
1961 Fleer#197 Jim Otto 90 2
1964 Topps#31 Daryl Lamonica 100 2.5
1965 Topps#46 Willie Brown 145 3.5
1965 Topps#133 Fred Biletnikoff 475 10
1972 Topps#65 Jim Plunkett 30 1.5
1972 Topps#93 Ted Hendricks 40 1.5
1972 Topps#108 Phil Villapiano 15 1
1972 Topps#186 Gene Upshaw 30 1.5
1973 Topps#77 Art Shell 30 1.5
1973 Topps#288 Jack Tatum 15 1
1973 Topps#487 Ken Stabler 100 2.5
1974 Topps#219 Ray Guy 14 1
1975 Topps#524 Cliff Branch 20 1
1977 Topps#380 Dave Casper 15 1
1977 Topps#50 Mike Haynes 11 1
1980 Topps#195 Lester Hayes 8 1
1983 Topps#240 Marcus Allen 20 1
1983 Topps#298 Todd Christensen 3 1
1984 Topps#111 Howie Long 45 1.5
1989 Score#86 Tim Brown 8 1
1989 Score#254 Steve Wisniewski 2 1

Let me know if you think i left anyone out, or included anyone that I shouldnt have...

Jason

NickM · January 26, 2004 6:36PM

Jas - I would add the rookies of the following players (most of which I haven't looked up to see which they are):
George Blanda ('54 Bowman)
Ben Davidson
Tom Flores
Bob Brown
Otis Sistrunk
John Matuszak
Lyle Alzado ('72 Topps)
Dave Dalby
Matt Millen
Bo Jackson ('88 Topps)
Terry McDaniel
Rich Gannon
Charles Woodson
John Madden ('89 Pro Set announcers card)
Al Davis ('90 Pro Set insert card)

LMK if you want an explanation on any of these.
I wouldn't remove anyone that you had in the set.

Nick

JasP24 · January 26, 2004 9:46PM

I considered all of those guys when putting this set together. Here's why they arent on it...First, I wanted these sets to be player sets, just as almost every other All-Time type set on the Registry. Im not a big fan of coach cards, and i dont know many people who are. So for me that takes Madden, AL Davis and Flores off the map. Flores played QB for them for 6 years, but never made a Pro Bowl or led the league in anything or even made a playoff run as QB.
Blanda was on the list until I took a closer look...In 9 years with the Raiders(of his 26 NFL years)He made exactly one Pro Bowl as a Raider, and that was as a kicker. He truly belongs on the Bears or Oilers All-Time team before the Raiders..
Bob Brown only played 3 years for the Raiders.
Sistrunk only made the pro Bowl once.
Matuszak was more famous for his movie roles than his football playing.
Alzado finished his final 4 years with the Raiders, but didn't make a Pro Bowl. He belongs on the Broncos All-Time Greats..
Dalby made the Pro Bowl only once in 14 years.
Matt Millen made only 1 Pro Bowl as well.
Bo Jackson just didnt play long enough to be considered an "All-Time great"..4 seasons, 1 Pro Bowl, never gained over 1,000 in a season..A few more years and he definitely would have fit.
Woodson doesnt have enough years under his belt either. 6 seasons, 3 pro Bowls...Needs a couple of more in my opinion...

Guys who were on the bubble and could arguably be added to the list?
Ben Davidson
Terry McDaniel
Rich Gannon

My goal was to keep this an "All-Time" great set...I didnt want it to turn into an "All-Time" Good players list...I wanted only guys who were impact players for the RAIDERS for an extended period. Sort of a Raiders Hall of Fame...

The final say will come down to Joe Orlando, as he approves or disapproves any players or sets that get added.

Jason

Davemri · January 26, 2004 10:52PM

Just so you know, I email the list to BJ and got this response.

Dave,

We’ll add this to our special request list. Although we may have a few rookie sets currently listed, we are generally holding off on those until, hopefully, later this year. We’ll keep your list on hand.

BJ

So it looks like it may take a while to get these sets listed.

dave

JasP24 · January 26, 2004 11:03PM

Here's what I got from BJ...

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:01:35 -0800
From: "BJ Searls" <BSearls@collectors.com>
To: "Jason Peeples" <jabeduco@yahoo.com>

Jason,

We’ll have Joe Orlando review these and then get them up. Thanks.

BJ

I didnt get the impression it would take all that long.Although, the loner they wait, the bigger head start I get...

JasP24

NickM · January 28, 2004 12:16PM

Jas - I approached it from a slightly different perspective. I took, among players who did not have statistically superlative careers with the Raiders, the ones who were the greatest fan favorites. I'm not joking when I say that you will find Raider fans at home games wearing jerseys from each of the retired players I listed. The difference between our lists is basically that between an insider (fan of that team) and an outsider (football fan).
I had Flores included solely because of his success as a coach. IMO, a coach, GM, or owner that is highly identifiable with a team should be considered for an "All-time" set.

Nick

JasP24 · January 28, 2004 11:31PM

Well, you are free to request any additions to the set after it has been loaded. But remember, this is an "All-Time GREATS" set..To me a GREAT player is one who had a big impact on the field, not necessarily a guy who's a fan favorite because he was in the movies, or because he had a great personality. Impact on the field doesnt ALWAYS equal Pro Bowls or All-Pro selections either...But a combination of stats, Pro Bowls, chmapionships in comparison with other players around the league at the same time was my criteria.

Joe Orlando approves all sets, and has the final say, so in reality its up to him. When I requested some additions to the current All-Time Steelers set, some were added, some were not, and one was added that I didn't even request, but Joe thought deserved to be on the list...

As far as Coaches go, I guess PSA could re-name the set something like Raiders All-Time Great Players, and that would solve the coach issue. IMO, maybe Lombardi, Halas, and Paul Brown I can see adding to an All-Time great set because of their historical merits, but thats about it...

JasP24

NickM · January 29, 2004 7:35AM

Jas - this is a large part of what makes this sort of set fun - that no 2 people will agree on just who should be in it.
As for coaches, Don Shula and Tom Landry should be no-brainers for their respective teams' sets, with Bill Walsh and Chuck Noll probably the next most deserving of inclusion.
IMO there should be similar standards across all 4 sports for inclusion of managers/coaches/owners in All-Time Greats sets (although baseball has a much longer tradition of including cards of these figures).

Nick

JasP24 · January 29, 2004 8:25AM

Nick, which Landry card would you add? His RC as a player or a coach???If he's an All-Time Great because he was a coach, then why would I want toto add his player card(51 Bowman)....Also can coach cards actually be considered "rookie" cards? I would prefer an All-Time set be a collection of rookie cards only, so what would determine a coaches "rookie" card...Trying to keep away from the 1975 Fleer type cards that were produced long after a players career was over..Would we start using those to find coach cards? Because coach cards arent commonly produced in football cards. I ask these questions because I'm try to keep an open mind and see your point of view..lol

I agree that PSA should standardize the selection process, as it would make things easier for someone who is putting the set together in hopes of having it uploaded to the Registry.

Jason

NickM · January 29, 2004 9:14AM

Jas - I'm open to adding either his first card as a player or his first card as a coach to such a set. Different people look at it different ways - some even want only the first card of that person in the team's uniform, as opposed to his rookie card

I understand the problem on older coaches that often there was no card issued during their career, but on many of the modern era coaches, there were those cards (thank you Lud Denny). That problem applies to early years NFL players too, and I would rather have a post-career card than skip them entirely. [I also argued against dropping certain people from PSA's HOF player set who never had pre-Callahan cards issued.]

It would be nice if Joe opened specific threads for each proposed team for all-time greats sets, as that would give him a better idea of collector opinion.

On a related note, all-time greats sets should be broken down into a rookie card set and a set of any card of that player. The plethora of different rookies for modern players (only one of which would be accepted for an all-time greats set) counsels strongly for this IMO.

Nick

JasP24 · January 29, 2004 9:30AM

The criteria that was given to me by BJ when we(a group of us)were initially putting together the NFL HOF RC set and Team of the Decade sets, was to use the "most valuable" rookie of that player. In case of a tie in value, the tie breaker being the PSA population...99.9% of these players have one specific card that is the most valuable. These are also chosen from mainstream regular issue cards. No inserts or parallels, and no regional issues. I would prefer to stick with that guidance in order to maintain continuity within the Football HOF and Key Card type sets...

Not sure about baseball and how PSA worked it, but thats how football has been guided. In the end, these sets are a product of PSA, so Joe and BJ and the PSA staff have the final say-so. I think it would be great if the guidlines were posted on the Set Request page...Would make things alot easier i think...

As far as the Post career cards go, I would actually prefer to skip them. Simply because they are specialty cards. Once we start using specialty cards and/or regional cards (1961 Lake-to-Lake for ex.) there will be no way to determine which card is THE card to collect of a particular player. I don't have the cash to collect every card of every player in the HOF, so most valuable mainstream rookie issue seems like it would make finding the right cards to put inthe Registered sets much easier..

Jason

NickM · January 29, 2004 10:17AM

Jas - among modern cards, even designations by value become highly subjective. Currently, Peyton Manning has 1998 Playoff Contenders Ticket rookies with SMR in PSA 10 at $2000 and 1998 SPx Finite rookies with SMR in PSA 10 at $1850. What happens if PSA determines that PCT rookies are actually trading now at about $2100 and SPx Finite rookies are actually trading now at about $1900? Should they change which is the included card in the registry set? If they break a tie by population, then what happens if there are a lot of submissions of the card with lesser population? [I chose Manning because there are similar prices and not much doubt that he belongs on an All-Time Greats Colts team].
1999 has even more of a mess, as Playoff Contenders Ticket had far more of its autographed rookies for some players than for others (325 for Jeff Garcia, 1825 for Kurt Warner, 525 for McNabb and E. James, 1025 for Holt and Culpepper, etc.). Unsurprisingly, for the players with few PCT rookies, that is their most valuable card. For the players with a larger number of PCT rookies, their most valuable card is still split between a couple different sets (McNabb and Holt in SP Authentic, Culpepper in SPx). It gets even worse in some later years. Pacific put out a 2002 set where every rookie was serial numbered to his college jersey number. Should this set be counted in the future? Should it only count if there are at least a certain number of rookies of a particular player within it (e.g., it counts for someone who wore #87, but not for someone who wore #5)?

Also, do we use cards that were only issued as part of boxed sets (e.g., '90 Score Supplemental Emmitt Smith)? How about cards that were redemptions (everything from '89 Pro Set series 3 to all of the modern autograph redemption cards)?

Lake to Lake cards of Packers were obviously regionals. Kellogg's and Post are not. Do they have sufficient mainstream acceptance to be included? Then there are USFL and Topps CFL cards.

This isn't personal with you. I'm just trying to argue for a more ecumenical approach for specialty set building.

Nick

JasP24 · January 29, 2004 11:22AM

Honestly, I think this is something you should discuss with BJ, Joe and the other PSA Set Registry folks. My opinions don't always mirror those of PSA's...All I can tell you is what I was told when trying to decide on cards for the HOF RC set and the All Decade sets...Autograph cards and Jersey cards are not REGULAR base issue cards. Same for Kellogg's and Post, they are specialty sets. In the HOF set, even the USFL cards were not allowed..The cards chosen previously were of the most valuable at THAT moment in time when the set was uploaded. Same thing for population if there was a tie in value. Also the value was based on PSA 8 price. When SMR value was not available because the cards were not listed, then Beckett.com was used for specific player pricing and seeing which card was more valuable.

Its not a perfect world, and there will always be someone with a different idea. I went with what I knew from past sets. If you are looking for something different, by all means submit it to PSA and let them decide which cards and sets they want to upload. Then the collectors can decide which sets they want to pursue.

Jason

NickM · January 29, 2004 12:52PM

Jas - I'm looking for people's opinions on these things.

BTW, many regular set rookies (i.e., numbered as part of the base set) nowadays are autographed, contain jersey swatches, or both, including most of the following sets for the last few years: SPx, SP Authentic, and Playoff Contenders.

Nick

JasP24 · January 29, 2004 9:27PM

Nick, I am aware of what cards have come out the past few years. The fact that the cards were a BASE issue, doesnt mean they fit in the same sets as older base issue cards. Jersey and Auto cards, no matter how the company packages them will never be considered REGULAR BASE issue cards like say 1972 Topps. To my knowledge PSA will not use them in KEY card sets, unless it is an all Auto or all jersey card set. Or a set that you can use any card of the particular player. In these cases, the card that will be used is the most valuable REGULAR BASE issue card.

In my opinion, thats exactly how it should be. There is a market for auto and jesey cards, but to me they are just gimmick cards and don't belong in the same set as 57 Topps or 96 SP. For the Hall of Fame RC set in particular, PSA will not even be using numbered cards(i.e. 1998 SP Authentic).

Jason

NickM · January 30, 2004 5:27AM

Jas - that PSA won't accept numbered rookies for the HOF set will have strange effects on this set in 10-12 years, when the first players who had serial numbered rookies start becoming eligible. Once you take out the serial numbered rookies and the base set rookies that contain an autograph or jersey swatch, you have eliminated most of the ones that collectors clamor over. Bowman Chrome non-shortprint rookies that book for 5% of the price of the player's top rookie cards just will not be accepted by collectors as the key card to have for the HOF RC set.

I'm also spelling things out in detail that you're familiar with because I expect some of the people reading this thread are very unfamiliar with modern rookie cards and would want to weigh in on it.

Joe Orlando - if you're reading, care to comment on what should and should not count for All-Time Greats and other key card or key rookie card sets?

Nick

All time Green Bay Packer Greats set

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