Grading Companies - Are we Better Off?
grilloj39
Posts: 370 ✭✭
With all the in-fighting that occurs amongst us hobbyists in regards to grading companies, would we be better off (as a collecting community) as a whole if there were no grading companies and everyone went raw?
I see a ton of plusses and minuses on both sides of the issue, but it seems we were a little more civil toward each other before the onset of grading companies. I would welcome any thoughts and opinions on this matter.
I see a ton of plusses and minuses on both sides of the issue, but it seems we were a little more civil toward each other before the onset of grading companies. I would welcome any thoughts and opinions on this matter.
0
Comments
The bottom line is that I do not see anything better or worse. One set of problems were eliminated and replaced by a new set of problems. The major drawback is the alienation amongst us as far as grading company loyalties are concerned. You hear such comments as "I will not buy from dealer XXX because he/she said something negative about grading company YYY." "Fellow collector is a jerk because they slam grading company ZZZ." The list goes on and on.
I just want to add that I may have been guilty of some of this myself, but that doesn't make it right.
Silver Coins
e-bay ID: grilloj39
e-mail: grilloj39@gmail.com
Before, one persons definition of mint could have been way different than another persons. Now, even if you don't see a card graded exactly as you would have graded it, the boundaries are more in focus. Before it was near impossible to tell if you were getting a genuine card free from alteration. If nothing else, PSA (and some other companies) have GREATLY reduced the potential for fraud.
This reminds me of the notion that our society has advance so far that it has made life complicated, and that people yearn for the days when life was simpler. But most people forget that crime, disease, equality, justice and liberties were not what they are today.
Yes - card grading has created a new set of rules and a different type of problem. But some of the worst fighting I have ever seen (over cards) was done at local shows before the invent of grading. Just like all evolution, the best, most honest, strongest and most adaptable will survive. Grading Company, Collector & Dealer alike.
(Thanks for the post) Jeremy
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
I agree with the majority.I think that we are better off.While a whole new set of problems have arisen,the biggest problem of altered cards has certainly been reduced.While there are still issues with regards to this problem,they are minimal compared to pre-grading. Grading also has brought fairly tight parameters defining the levels of what constitutes each particular grade.
Vic
<< <i>registry set grading which raises the prices of common cards IMO, favortism from large dealers (which I believe does exist from time to time, although not as rampant as others believe), etc, etc. >>
These are two excellent points, and I would also like to add that it is nearly impossible to find high grade raw commons at shows anymore. The "PSA dealers" always seem to scour the tables at the major shows even before they open the tables to the public. Therefore, the average collector has really no chance to buy gradeable raw product anymore. If we want it, we have to pay the inflated graded price.
I think i need a hobby break...............or maybe ill just stop reading any of the boards.
Paul.
Paul,
Just go out and pull the trigger on that nice $2000 card.That should do the trick.
Vic
Paul.
<< <i>With all the in-fighting that occurs amongst us hobbyists in regards to grading companies >>
Forgot to mention earlier, but if one ignores the in-fighting, then it is no longer a negative...
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
This is true.
Paul.
Thebobs-
That's true, but it ignores the thrust of grilljo's point. By the same token, we could say that if you don't mind altered cards, then grading's no longer a positive.
If the infighting has detracted from one's enjoyment of the hobby, then it needs to be considered when addressing the question.
nobody on this world is perfect (my wife somehow thinks that she is though?). humans are flawed, and so are machines, because they themselves are man made. therefore there will be mistakes, accidents, crooks, etc. there will always be a cliff somewhere at sometime, you just have to decide if you want to just jump right off, or slide down it nice and slow.
<< <i>Therefore, the average collector has really no chance to buy gradeable raw product anymore. If we want it, we have to pay the inflated graded price. >>
ctsoxfan,
Inflated graded price???!!!!
How about all the times in the 80's and early 90's where we all paid for inflated raw prices. Oh my, how many times a seller would sell you a 'mint' card slightly below book, when the card itself, using current grading standards, might be worth 1/4 or 1/2 of book. I would have fallen into that catagory as I, like many, unknowingly or just ignorantly overgraded these cards.
I guarantee you I can get a better deal buying graded cards for X amount of $$ than chancing on raw. This is not to say that good raw deals can't be had or shouldn't be attempted, but to generalize that graded prices are inflated is a HUGE stretch. The only time I scratch my head on graded is when PSA 10's come into play. The amounts some of these cards realize is unreal, but then again, the folks who buy these have their reasons.
Even with all the 'sideshows' graded cards may produce, it is definately here to stay and I'm glad it is so!
BOTR
<< <i>
I would also like to add that it is nearly impossible to find high grade raw commons at shows anymore. The "PSA dealers" always seem to scour the tables at the major shows even before they open the tables to the public. Therefore, the average collector has really no chance to buy gradeable raw product anymore. If we want it, we have to pay the inflated graded price. >>
I would have to disagree. I still find lots of NM-MT raw vintage cards. It takes more effort but they're still around. I also think professional grading has made it much easier to build consistant high grade sets. I started upgrading my 1969 set to NM-MT in the late 80's, long before professional grading. I had a pretty good eye back then and ended up with a high hit rate of PSA 8+ when I finally graded those cards years later. However, it was near impossible to find about 50 cards in NM-MT or better condition, well centered. I hit up every major show in the SF bay area as well as a few Nationals for the better part of a decade and never found a nice Brock, Shannon, Satriano, Ferraro, Duncan, etc. Thanks to professional grading, I can buy the card on eBay from a collector or dealer on the other side of the country and be 99% confident that the card will meet my standards of quality. I may have to pay much more than I would have if I found it raw. But consider how many hours of searching through binders it would take to find that one card. Ocassionally spending $50 for a tough common isn't too bad.
If a collector does not like the idea of grading they do not have to worry about that segment of the hobby. There are still some quality vintage card dealers (Mark Macrae's name immediately comes to mind) who have very little or no graded cards and they have outstanding hobby reputations. The choice is there for the collector to make. You can accumulate nice cards raw or in holders.
I know many dealers still sell only raw, and many dealers hate grading, but I know that its rare to find a nice raw vintage card anymore due to more people looking to snap them up, grade them, and make the resulting profit. Still, I agree that the standard of NM-MT is now more assured due to grading, and I love my PSA graded cards. But, is there really anything left (other than unopened, and that's drying up as well) to grade?
I am going to disagree here also. I only get to a show or 2 a year in BOston. At the last regional show , I found about 100 gradable 60's football cards fro m an out of state dealer. my results about 10 9's. 70 8's 10 7's and 10 6's that I was less stringent on. THese were cards from sets that I follow, he had many more boxes of other years of the same quality.
<< <i>If the infighting has detracted from one's enjoyment of the hobby, then it needs to be considered when addressing the question. >>
I'd say that if the infighting were detracting one's enjoyment of the hobby, then one will likely find equally disturbing behavior in ANY hobby with a strong online component.
My point is that grading doesn’t cause the infighting. If there were no grading, folks on message boards would still find plenty of issues to flame etc. Go to any message board on any topic, and you are likely to find flame wars, zealots, grudges, and trolls. Grading doesn’t cause this, and it certainly wouldn't be cured if grading suddenly vanished.
If infighting makes someone unhappy or preoccupied then it’s probably time for a different hobby (and likely one that doesn't include other human beings hiding behind keyboards).
Just my opinion...
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
I am not a big fan of registry set collecting but I do understand the enjoyment some of you gain from it. I do collect mixed grade sets with the exception of my 1954-55 topps hockey GAI graded only set, but other than that, I don't do crossovers anymore. I like to examine a card at a show and whether it is in a PSA, GAI, or SGC holder....if I feel it is graded accurately, I'll buy the card if I need it to complete my set(s).
Again, I avoid the crossover syndrome as I feel that someone has already gone through the process of paying for and submitting a card for grading so why repeat the monetary and submission process.
Silver Coins
e-bay ID: grilloj39
e-mail: grilloj39@gmail.com
dealer says, everything is 50% off the marked price! whoohoo bargain time. NOT.
PSA (and the others ) pretty much renewed my interest in the hobby after getting burnt too many
times with raw cards!
Dan
Hockey set! Always looking to buy, trade or upgrade 1966 Topps to 1969 OPC.
I share in your sentiments. A lot of dealers at shows tried to push all kinds of crap by me. The cards I see in holders, whether PSA 8 or BGS 8, are far superior than the junk I was seeing at shows. I had a good eye back then and spent several minutes looking at a card (in the card saver, mind you), and when I found too many defects, it was not necessary to take it out, and simply gave it back to the dealer. The dealers were angry, in a bad mood and insulted me for doing basically what is being done now with grading. I like to see them choke today on the inferior condition 80's stuff they tried to pass as mint.
Some of the Gems I bought raw over the years might not be sent in for grading just for the simple fact that I have no interest to part with them. Also, a PSA holder will not protect a card through time since it still comes in contact with oxygen. There will be yellowing and paper burn. I archive my GEMS myself and for a lot less money. PSA is great, but can't buy into the hype all that much. I am sure some of you collectors know what I am talking about. DGF also likes them raw and he is about as critical as I am when evaluating a card.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
The fighting and arguing that occurs with collectors is no different than the bickering that goes on in a heated polictical discussion, sporting events, etc. Just human nature. let's be thankful to all fo the grading companies for giving us choices. If we did not have choices we would be b*tching about something else.
Ron
A few years ago, I was as anti-grading as one can get,
and to this day I still work on and very much appreciate my raw sets.
But, as others have mentioned, once one starts throwing serious money around,
the assurance of knowing the card you're getting has been professionally graded is priceless.
Also I agree with RonD that it's good we have choices.
We don't have to patronize dealers that constantly bash PSA. We can take our business elsewhere.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
This is one of the reasons that has caused my renewed collecting fever. The PSA Registry is one of the more powerful and influential tools in the hobby. Before I discovered this, I would have never considered looking for many of the cards I own. I am sure that there are several people here on these boards were already looking for commons before, but the Registry opened up the floodgates for my most of us. Just my guess, as I do not have facts on others collecting habits prior to the registry.
When is GAI going to open their "interactive registry" and how could they possibly do that? From what I have heard you will be able to register a PSA Mantle, an SGC 64 Mantle and a GAI Mantle all on the same set.
This is the kind of stuff that makes me sick to my stomach. A typical BGS 9 of this card would maybe go for $150-$200 topps. Now, the BGS 10 has sold for over $1,000 on Ebay. There are way to many people who know how to alter the cards in such a way that they can fool large companies such as BGS and SGC.
I hate shelling out alot of $$$ on a box looking for that big RC, only to get disappointed and stuck with some cheap inserts and a defensive back rookie card ( football ), but that may be the only way these days that someone can be sure that they are getting a card that has not been trimmed or altered in any way. Heck, I just started buying some packs off Ebay that are obviously searched for the Auto'd rookies or Game Used cards, but they are GUARANTEED to be in there.
I bought 3 packs of '03 Bowman Chrome Football that are guaranteed to have an autographed rookie in each pack for a Buy It Now price of $34.99!!! There is one autographed rookie per box, and your average box could cost you anywhere from $60 - $90 depending where you buy it. I totally disagree with pack searching, but hey, card trimming isn't to honest either and I will know for sure that the cards I get out of the packs are not altered.
3 Bowman Chrome rookie autographs for $34.99. Now that was a steal. These peopel don't know what exact rookies you will get, but they do guarantee the autographs. It could be Byron Leftwich!! Carson Palmer? Rex Grossman? Who knows? I haven's got the packs yet, but I am interested to see.
I shelled out $1,200 for a BGS 9.5 '87 Fleer Barry Bonds RC about 8 months ago. Now as it sits in my drawer, I wonder if one day I will find out that the card was trimmed or something like that. Or will the graded market crash and I lose out a ton on my investment?
Most of the people here are saying that grading is much better than buying unslabbed cards. I disagree. I used to love walking from table to table looking for the card I want in the best condition I could find it. If it booked for $10 and it was in great shape, I only paid $10 and I thought that that was fair. Now, if the card was slabbed 9.5 I have to pay 10-20x the book value for the card.
My parting words will be that I can somewhat see paying a premium for older cards in great shape, because before around 1989 or so, nobody really cared for the conditions of the cards as much as they do now. Just to have a card of the hottest player was enough. Centering? Who cared? Surface? Get Real? I usually just looked at the corners for any white showing. That was it. Now days almost every card that comes out of a pack is so sturdy and laminated that it should be almost Gem Mint anyway. If grading is such a great thing, then how come the values of graded cards continue to drop for most cards made from around 1985 and up?
'94 UD Alex Rodriguez AUTO BGS 9.5 was $1,200 about 6 months ago. Now it books for like $600 and you could probably get one for around $400 or so. Alex Rodriguez just won MVP and he is argueably the best player in baseball. I thought it was a great investment when I paid $1,100 for it 6 or 7 months ago. Why did it drop so much? I have some graded cards, but I am not so sure I will hold onto them for much longer. The more the poulation grows on my cards, the less they are worth. That sucks.
I'd rather spend even $20 on a great looking $10 card and then find out it was trimmed, rather than spending $500-$1000 on a "Gem Mint" graded card that I find out is trimmed down the road also. Not one person could argue that they are for sure that their card was not trimmed or altered if they had it graded. No one. There is way too much incriminating evidence out there to prove otherwise. I'll stick with the safe way of collecting.
TheRoach
Roach,
You have a lot to learn. I don't have enough time to go into detail: here's the Readers Digest version.
1) Influx of crooks due to graded cards? Please!! Any hobby or wherever money is concerned will bring out the evil elements. Ever heard of Enron? So I guess if we all went back to raw cards the crooks would just go away...........PLEASE!!!!!
<< <i>If grading is such a great thing, then how come the values of graded cards continue to drop for most cards made from around 1985 and up? >>
2) Don't you have any idea how much of 1985-and-up stuff is out there???? Do you realize how much the use of Ebay has played in competition of sellers, meaning overall lower prices for the vast majority of cards?????
3) You are overpaying for newer cards. Prices will continue to fall as new stuff, say 1980 and up, is cracked open and submitted. Most will find their way to ebay where competition is keen.
4) The sky is falling!!! Hide under a rock and sell all your cards at 25% of value so you don't get stuck with all the trimmed cards you think you have.
BOTR
5000 count boxes of players like Canseco, Harkey, Joyner, Surhoff, Maas, etc. litter the basements of people that post on these boards. The great thing about buying baseball cards is that no one HAS to unless they CHOOSE to...
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
<< <i>Grading just brought out more crooks in this hobby >>
Actually it is the reverse! Granted there are crooks that try to tamper w/ holders, ...that try to slide by an altered card past a grader, ...that dont reveal a qualifier on eBay and theres no scan to verify,....that steal an image and try to sell it as their own...etc...
But prior to grading, there were crooks who made unlicensed cards, some that made their own reprints ('63 Rose & '84 Donruss Mattingly come to mind, as these are collectors items in their own right now)...some that would "age" a new reprint of a tobacco card or Goudey, ...some that would trim, recolor or alter a card. With grading, the good companies are accountable for whats in their holders, so a ton of these cards will not be holdered for the above reasons. Granted there are some grading companies that will slab any card thats sent to them, so not all grading companies are alike...jay
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
<< <i>Most of the people here are saying that grading is much better than buying unslabbed cards. I disagree. I used to love walking from table to table looking for the card I want in the best condition I could find it. If it booked for $10 and it was in great shape, I only paid $10 and I thought that that was fair. Now, if the card was slabbed 9.5 I have to pay 10-20x the book value for the card. >>
I don't agree with much of roach's post, but this part is what I was trying to say earlier. Nowadays, it's almost impossible to find that nice card raw at a show, because chances are, someone has found it, slabbed it, and now wants at least 10X-20X (often much more) of its raw value. Takes a lot of fun out of it, and often the dealer that has that card acts as if he has the Magna Carta is his case.
The exception being my answers, which are always right.
Buy Raw cards for full becket prices that have a shot at being tampered with,poor quality.
Or
Buy a nice example protected in a perma holder that a reputable company not only graded but authenticated.
On a scale from 1-10 the price range varies,maybe a grade or two doesn't match but you can trust more in a holder than what's not in one.
My Auctions
If there were not grading companies, I don't think I would be collecting vintage cards today.
The sophistication that card restoration people can bring to the hobby demands professional graders as I do not think a typical collector can tell if a card is restored if it is done professionally.
I had never heard of power erasing a few years back when a few of my cards came back altered because of this--neither had certain large dealers I spoke with.
The challenge now is for PSA and other reputable grading companies to stay ahead of the technology and recognize when cards are altered.
Jim
1. There are just way too many cards produced today. The numbers are astronomical.
2. The big reason. The top condition modern cards are being slabbed right after they are pulled from
the packs so there is always going to be an over supply of high graded modern cards. The supply
outweighs the demand driving down the value of the cards. Since these cards are being slabbed,
they will always remain in high grade form. You can only have a certain amount of mint Arod cards
before the bottom falls out. I can remember selling a Mint 9 SP Vince Carter rookie a couple of years
ago for $1,100 and now that same card sells for not even half of the price.
3. Collectible value comes from the supply versus the demand and the condition of the items in demand.
That is why vintage cards hold their value. When these vintage cards were produced and originally
purchased there wasn't really any monetary value placed on them as the people purchased them
for collecting, trading and more importanly the gum that was inside the packs. There was no
value in them with the kids that were buying them then. The cards would be traded, played with,
marked on and thrown away over time. There numbers of high grade or collectible grade vintage
cards far away outweigh the supply.
I believe that the only way a dealer or collector can make money on modern cards is to sell them when the player is hot or when a product is newly introduced on the market. It would be very difficult to purchase an already graded modern card and wait a couple of years to sell it and still make a profit.