Question on the old Spanish 8 Reales:

coachleonard

Even though many a coin book tells us that Spanish 8 reale coins
were commonly seen and used in Colonial and early America, it seems to me, from casual observation, that Spanish 8 reales of the
1600's and 1700's don't turn up all that often in metal detecting
finds. So my question is, how do they come down to us? I know
shipwrecks are one way, but a good many on the market are not
sea-salvaged. So.... anybody have any thoughts/theories on this?

laurentyvan

I can not tell you how they came to us, but I can hazard a guess that it did not take too many of these discoveries:

The El Cazador, a Spanish brigantine of war, was lost without a trace in the winter of 1784 while on route from Vera Cruz Mexico to the port of New Orleans. The wrecksite was accidentally discovered on August 2, 1993 by a fishing vessel working the area. The treasure of the El Cazador, consisting of over 400,000 Spanish 8 reales and an equal amount of smaller denomination Spanish colonial coins from the Mexico City mint, was intended to stabilize the Spanish monetary system in colonial North America. Her loss contributed to Spain's eventual conveyance of Louisiana to France's Napoleon in 1800. The rest is history, as three years later in 1803, Napoleon of France sold Louisiana to the United States, instantly doubling the size of the country.

before there would be plenty to go around. Perhaps after demonitization, they became like the Kennedy dollar-everyone hoarded them regardless of their slight value. I'm sure someone will have the right information in short order.

In fact I can feel Askari and his ilk contributing in the near future....

1jester

double post edited out.

1jester

I believe Coinnerd is really into Pieces of 8; hopefully he'll see this.

For me it's a bit of a stretch to believe that the loss of only one boatload of dollars would be the reason we don't see many of them today. By the way, how many available today are uncirculated? And how common are the circulated ones? These seem to be really cheap. And are we talking about ones from all mints?

laurentyvan

before there would be plenty to go around.

I didn't say a boatload would account for scarcity? Or did I?

lordmarcovan

<< <i>it seems to me, from casual observation, that Spanish 8 reales of the 1600's and 1700's don't turn up all that often in metal detecting
finds. >>



Actually, they do. More often the portrait type than the pillar type, of course, but I have a personal acquaintance who has found some amazing stuff. One of his favorite finds was three circa 1750's Pillar dollars in the same hole- obviously the contents of a purse or bag that had long rotted away. He said he nearly had a heart attack!

I have also heard of portrait 8 reales and a U.S. Bust dollar being found in this region. I have not seen any of these finds, but I do believe the story about the three Pillar dollars in the same hole, as I have seen pictures of some of the other stuff that guy has found. He is SE Georgia's preeminent relic hunter whose fame is well known in detecting circles, and is eclipsed only by one fella from the Savannah area.

They are out there. Mind you, they are elusive finds. As with any big silver coin, though, they are usually out there in caches or shipwrecks or whatever, not as much in singles, as a large silver cartwheel dropped on the ground usually got spotted and picked up by someone else not long after it was lost, unless it fell in mud or high grass or whatever.

Askari

I remember as a kid in Mobile and Charleston that many beachcombers went out right after big storms to collect shells and often found an old "doubloon". There were particular spots along the Florida panhandle that seemed to get concentrations of them and people wondered just how far offshore -- and precisely where! -- the wreck lay that was distributing them.

One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of it got melted by colonial silversmiths. There weren't any silver mines in the Atlantic and Gulf colonies early on; moreover, the coins had the added benefits of already being refined and of regular purity to boot. Bulk silver would be smelted down and formed into silverware and the like.

GDJMSP

Not only were the Spanish reale coins commonly seen and used in colonial America - they were the MOST used and accepted coins in colonial America. As for where they come from - many do indeed come from shipwrecks. Many more come from hoardes in this country, Mexico, various South American countries and Europe. The coins were widely collected, but often not by coin collectors per se - but by the general population as a rainy day fund. These coins were the most trusted form of coinage worldwide.

Obviously in the time these coins circulated in commerce - not many could afford to hide away these coins. But they did a few here - a few there. And the more wealthy of the population often stashed rather large quantities. In fact the oldest 8 reale coin and among the very first ever minted on this continent was held by a family in Mexico for generations. It then moved with the family to California and was held there until it was discovered and authenticated just last year.

As for them being relatively cheap - yes they are in some if not many cases. But then it must be considered that they were minted in the millions. So it only stands to reason that many of them survive today. And it also doesn't hurt that the demand for these coins - like many world coins ( THANK GOD ! ) - is relatively low.

Boy I hope it stays that way

coinnerd

The Spanish milled dollar or piece of 8 was the most common currency used in the colonies. If you have ever seen a piece of Continental Currency (issued by the Continental Congress, not individual colonies) you will see that it is payable in Spanish milled dollars.

The reason that few pre 1733 pieces are found in hoards is the manufacture process. Early pieces were crudely made and many resembled no more than a lump of silver. They were also subject to clipping and slinging which made them under weight. They would be melted and turned into other forms of money.

Many of the 1733 - 1790 pieces left the country. During the revolution, and for a short time after, all hard money that could be gotten was used to pay foriegn nations for war material (Colonial suppliers were paid with Continental Currency). A lot of silver money left the country during this peroid.

coinnerd

1jester

The portrait type are really common up to US xf grade, and are obtainable in nice au to unc for the mints of Mexico City, Potosi Bolivia, and Lima Peru. They are inexpensive in grades below au.
The pillar types are less common but Mexico City coins are still very easy to find in xf - au. True uncs are available but expect to pay a lot for them.
The other mints range from scarce to rare with Lima and Guatamala the easiest to find.

spoon

Lots of good info in this thread. Thanks

coachleonard

Yes-- got some great, educational info here. Thanks to all!

newsman

<< <i>And it also doesn't hurt that the demand for these coins - like many world coins ( THANK GOD ! ) - is relatively low.

Boy I hope it stays that way >>



Actually, Spanish colonial 8 reales seem to be relatively more expensive because of demand from US collectors. I know lots of collectors of US coins who buy a pillar 8 reales for their colonial sets because it's listed in the Redbook. Just as an example, look at the equivalent Portuguese colonial silver crown of the era -- the Brazilian 960 reis, which is usually struck over 8 reales coins. They are much rarer than the Spanish coins but you can find a true uncirculated example for less than $200.

laurentyvan

Here is one of four that I own, probably the nicest-this is an image I posted not too long ago...sorry for the repetition.

GDJMSP

And for an example of the pillar type - again one you've seen before but it's been a while

lordmarcovan

Swet Pillar Dollar- I've never had one. I think the biggest Pillar type denomination I've ever had was a 2R. Never dug a pillar-type Spanish Colonial when detecting, either, though I watched a fella dig a Pillar half real at one Revolutionary War era shipyard site we hunted. (I dug my first large cent on that site- a dateless Draped Bust).

coinnerd

Nice coins Laurent and GDJMSP.

Here is a cob type from Mexico City. As you can see there is no date and the details seem very soft. This coin is full weight with very little actual wear. It actually weighs slightly more than the other two coins shown by the others as the weight was reduced in the early 1700s. Even though there is no date I can place the date of the coin between 1677 and 1700 during the reign of Charles II. If you look to the right of the shield you can see the letters OM L vertically. Mexico City mint assayer L. Assayer L was the assayer from 1677 to 1709. Charles II died in 1700 and was the last of the Hapsburgs in Spain. The next king was Phillip V a Bourbon who changed the shield design slightly to show his connection to France. The shield on this coin is a Hapsburg shield so the coin can be placed in the second half of Charles II reign.

As a bonus notice the Chinese chopmarks. The piece of eight was the major trade coin of the world during the 17th and 18th century.

1jester

Beautiful coins and great info, guys! Thanks.

spoon

Cool pics everyone I like the globes on the pillar type.

Now a question: Do (non-official) chopmarks matter? Will they always affect the value, up or down, or does it depend on the seller/buyer preferences?

coinnerd

Do (non-official) chopmarks matter?

Yes. Chops on the portrait types are very common so I feel that it reduces their value. Chopmarks on pillar types with are less common so if I see a few lite marks It will not bother me too much. Most dealers will discount these coins anyway. Chops on cobs will not bother me at all unless they totally destroy the coin. Official countermarks are a different story.

shirohniichan

<< <i>Cool pics everyone I like the globes on the pillar type.

Now a question: Do (non-official) chopmarks matter? Will they always affect the value, up or down, or does it depend on the seller/buyer preferences? >>



Genuine chops on cobs are actually quite scarce, so a nice clean chop one one will actually raise its value. Small chops are most common on pillar and portrait dollars and usually lower the host coins' value, but scarce chops can make a common coin worth much more than its unchopped counterparts.

We should remember that 8 reales coins were stored in big caches as bank deposits, also. The reason why there are so many that are UNC or nearly so is that many of them served as bank reserves. 8 reales coins served as bullion in trade with China, also. Chinese merchants preferred the pillar type as they had a higher silver content than the portrait type. Some made it to China and back without being chopped.