Flying Eagle Cents HOT at FUN
Lakesammman
Posts: 17,364 ✭✭✭✭✭
There were quite a number of FE cents bought and sold at the FUN show. In spite of that, the appetite for them seems insatiable. I have never seen so many nice Flyers at one show - it was a real treat. Auction highlights include:
1856 PCGS MS66 S3 - $172,500
1858 PCGS MS66 - $16,100 (I was the bridesmaid on this one)
Someone is rumored to have sold a wonderful 1856 S3 in a PCGS P66 holder for just over 6 figures. I had a chance to see it and it was indeed spectacular. If in a MS holder, it would have deserved a higher price than the one sold in the auction.
I was lucky enough to buy an 1858 Small Letter flyer, Low leaf reverse, PCGS P65Cam (pictured below) for what seemed a bargain in comparison.
1856 PCGS MS66 S3 - $172,500
1858 PCGS MS66 - $16,100 (I was the bridesmaid on this one)
Someone is rumored to have sold a wonderful 1856 S3 in a PCGS P66 holder for just over 6 figures. I had a chance to see it and it was indeed spectacular. If in a MS holder, it would have deserved a higher price than the one sold in the auction.
I was lucky enough to buy an 1858 Small Letter flyer, Low leaf reverse, PCGS P65Cam (pictured below) for what seemed a bargain in comparison.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
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This thread is %100 COOL!!!!!!!!!!
I think Heritage had a few at FUN.
were the '56's plentiful at the show Lakes?
In prior years they became available in spurts.
Regarding the IHC's, I follow the red one's most closely. There were very few to be had, either at the auctions or in the sales. I think the low prices realized for the MS red IHC's reflected the overall quality. I bought 2, more out of impatience than anything else, as they weren't exactly stunning coins.
There is a overall shortage of nice IHC's, red or RB, suggesting to me there are alot of folks putting them away. The dealers cases are now full of so-so MS coins or proofs.
I am glad I got my deal worked out prior to the FUN show, especially from what you are saying about the 56 FE's. Seems like when I sold my VF-25(Ex:goose 3 coin), had a heck of a time locating another decent S-3. During that time, I had purchased a PCGS-58, but it was a proof S-9. Its just not the same.
Ill be glad to have an original s-3 back.
Ps Thanks again for the call.
jim d
No problem - that flyer in 62 brought 64 money, since it was that nice.
Did you get a SLQ?? Sorry I couldn't help you on that one.
my guess is that the snow3 examples will continue to distance themselves even further from the PF ones and that it will do so eventually in ALL of the grades so long as you are able to discern that the coin is an S3.
Since Snow's book has come out, there is slow but growing appreciation for all 10 die varieties. There are collectors trying to collect all 10. An AU58 S1 would cost you probably 20K or more, based on the die pair rarity. Only 1-3 people would be able to complete the set and that may put tremendous price pressure on the rarer die pairs, especially the S1 and S10.
<< <i>1858 PCGS MS66 - $16,100 (I was the bridesmaid on this one) >>
Great catch - thanks for the post and pic! Sorry about the dumb "where is the pic" PM.
<< <i>my guess is that the snow3 examples will continue to distance themselves even further from the PF ones and that it will do so eventually in ALL of the grades so long as you are able to discern that the coin >>
This will be true for the variety collectors, but not for the market for 56 Flyers as a whole in the short term. Collectors will just want a 56, any 56. Just as with the 57 multidenominational clashes, the premiums will rise, but it won't happen overnight, the educational process moves slowly - just my opinion.
The PCGS issue will slow the process down even more.
You may be right. Sure would like to see them move to original vs restrike.
Do you really believe that collectors will just want any 56?? If so, why would a price differential have already developed??
I respectfully have to disagree. I myself am one of those people that purposely wanted to purchase one of the original estimated 634 minted and I know of another member (Cough JimDimmick) that feels the same way as me.
The proof versions are spectacular coins but there is just something inexplicable about owning one of the original 634 that were given out to congressmen, etc....call it mystique?
I don't think the way NGC/PCGS choose NOT to distinguish between MS and PF makes too much of a difference for someone that specifically wants an S3. Not everyone is interested in competing in the registry. People have more respect for what Rick Snow says about an 1856 than any opinion offered by any grading company in my opinion.
I do think that many people see it in the way that Lakes describes it....Original Versus Restrike......and That is why there is a spread in pricing.
In my opinion if a S3 looks like a proof it should be called a proof.If an S3 looks like a mint state coin then it is a mint state coin.The S3 that sold for $172,000 looks like a mint state coin.The S3 that looks like a Proof in the Palm Beach collection is called a proof.And the S9 that is called a mint state 66 from the Gougleman collection is a proof IMO.
Stewart
I agree, but the services don't. That's why they've given up trying to differentiate MS vs proof and are calling them all proof. That doesn't help anyone. Original vs restrike, no matter what the format, still makes the most sense, IN THE CASE OF THE S3 AND THE S9 DIE PAIR.
The services could use the qualifier "proof like" for those S3's that look like proofs. That would make everyone happy (except the cherrypickers).
<< <i>
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*** People have more respect for what Rick Snow says about an 1856 than any opinion offered by any grading company in my opinion. ***
>>
I agree.
NEEDED:Snow 8 and Snow 7 Clashes!!
<< <i>This will be true for the variety collectors, but not for the market for 56 Flyers as a whole in the short term. >>
Goose3,
I don't think we really disagree. My point was about the time frame and who in the market really cares about the difference (which will change with education) - not about the difference itself.
Steward also makes a point - there are proof-like S-3s and much of the research is still fuzzy. It is one thing to speculate on when the Mint did what based on die parings and speculation about the motives of Mint directors. But who knows which coins (say of just the S-3s) actually went to Congress or the Cabinet, and which ones may have sat in a Mint vault for 1,3, 5 years, and also, when the "restrikes" were really struck? The jury is still out on most of these issues.
Separating the emotional value and perceived drama from the history may be impossible. The stories about the midnight antics of Eckfeldt are also very appealing for the 1857 S-7,8,9, but they are just speculation - stories that many of us want/like to believe - but still no proof (or is it Proof?
Regards,
Pushkin
Added: Hopefully more people will become interested and study the series, more gurus will develope and the issues can be discussed with more fact and less emotion, or at least better delineation between fact and emotion.
My WAG, based on the appearance of the S3 coins, is that there was a initial proof run of a few coins for the mint director. There was then a production run of MS coins to simulate mass production, these given to congress. A few later proofs were then made, either for presentation purposes or as restrikes. It's these later proof coins that exhibit the latest (Die stage C obverse) die states with a crack below the date.
Again, this is only my speculation.
<< <i>Again, this is only my speculation. >>
IMO, your speculation is as good as any, and probably better than most.
Concerning the emotional appeal of the S-3 over the S-9, I certainly respect that. However, I had an opportunity to purchase an S-3 on December 6 in Baltimore (same grade as my S-9, and it would have only cost $2000 more, Snow Certification and all). I'm glad I didn't. It simply didn't have the eye appeal of the S-9 I purchased, not even close. Again, that is my personal preference. And, if given the opportunity again, I would make the same decision.
The restrike issue is interesting. The S-9s may be restrikes, but they certainly aren't restrikes in the sense of the New Haven Restrikes of Fugio Cents, for example. Also, if a S-3 looks prooflike, and maybe it is a proof, then isn't it incorrect to label it MS?, just because it's an
S-3? And when were the various "Ss" actually struck? Snow says probably before 1861; also were any of the S-3s struck in 57? I think that is also a realistic possibility - so are those really "56s" and how does one know which are which?
Again, just speculating. There are still a lot of unanswered questions about the series, and we aren't even into 57 yet.
The first 56 flyer that I owned was a PCGS Vf-25(s-3) (Ex:goose 3 coin), really enjoyed having it. But me, always looking for the opportunity to upgrade, had a chance to pick up an AU. However, once I saw the coin I had to pass, due to being an extremely weak strike (s-3), especially in the beak. My main purpose for upgrading was to gain quite a bit of detail as well as surface preservation. I did not feel it was worth the significant premium to gain nothing, or to have such a weakly struck un-appealing coin. I had already listed my Vf-25 on E-bay which sold in as little as 1/2 day, which left me in despare to aquire another. Previously, Ive always found 56 FE's to be somewhat readily availble, but pricey. But Ill tell you, once I found my-self with out one, they seem to dry up over night and gain some strong price advancements.
John (Goose 3) wouldnt sell me his PCGS Au-50(s-3) after several strong offers, (cant say I blame him) so I began to look at others including proof formats. I found these coins to be much better detailed (proof strikes), so I purchased a S-9 proof that was incorrectly holdered by PCGS as AU. I tried to convince my-self that I was happy just owning a 56 FE again, but to be honest it just wasnt the same for me. I wanted an original back, not a restrike. IMO, it wasnt as much as owning a proof version as it was wanting to own a coin struck in the original striking period. So I sold it and began to look some more as the prices were continuing to climb.
Luckily, just prior to the FUN show, I was able to lock in a deal on a PCGS-58 (s-3) correctly holdered/and attributed. Will be great to have one of the originals back.
Intrestingly, I agree with Pushkin, that it is indeed an honor just to own one in any grade, regardless of the snow variety. This is a coin that WOW's most everyone in Numismatics no matter where you are. There are many people that will never get the opportunity to own one. And yes, this coin technically is a pattern as said by many, but what a super popular coin IMO. A coin that many consider a must have for a complete collection of flyers, even though yes its a pattern. I like to call it King of the Small cents. If one chooses to pursue a restrike coin, you can usually get much better detail and surface preservation on the s-9 proof restrikes as compared to the S-3's an other Snow varities for considerable less money, especially in MS grades where the price really begins seperate. However, as said, I prefer to have the S-3 variety "original " as to own one of the restrikes.
I have noticed that the prices on the MS version or "originals" have really begun to take off, especially in the ms-63 and higher grades. As witnessed at the FUN show, thier is significant demand for the 56FE in general immerging again with ever more so for the original varieties like the (s-3), (s-1). I think as time goes on, this will increase and become even more so and will also continue to work down into the higher circualted grades as well. Also, its going to be intresting to see how PCGS's retains its position to holder all 56 FE's as proof's will play out. Will this put more demand on the coin's that are infact correctly attributed and correctly holdered by PCGS? Will the Registry chasers have any affect on price because the Proof(2037) format and MS (2017) format have two different PCGS coin numbers? Will it make a difference in value that a coin is incorrectly holdered, but truly an S-3 or other notable variety?
Only time will tell
And I agree with the statement that PCGS should look at designating either "Original" or "Restrike" and save the variety attribution to the experts like Rick Snow and others.