SPEAKING OF WIWAG
mintyfresh
Posts: 46
Did the investigation ever reveal approximately how many cards were tampered with by this scumbag. Was it mostly vintage or newer stuff? I had one card from them and I thought about sending it back but I thought it was going to be more trouble than it was worth. There should be a way to get this info, unless a deal was cut to seal the results of the investigation. Anybody have any info on this subject.
Always looking for High Grade Pete Rose @ Mint 1975 Topps
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There is this guy who posts on the stock chat board at yahoo, who seems to know.
The only stock he posts info about is CLCT ( Collectors Universe ), but he has lots of info.
It's funny he's only interested in that one stock.
He sure reminds me of someone, but I just can't think who.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
I'm going to burn all my cards in PSA holders now. The sky is getting lower and lower.
I wonder if "collectorsinternational" knows that posting false information about a stock and then making recommendations on selling/holding/buying can get him in hot water with the Feds (SEC). Since he seems to be in such command of the facts, maybe we need to report him to the SEC and have some nice federal agents visit him and see if he can back up these amazing "facts".
I'd recommend all CU board members to file a complaint on-line. Here's the link:
SEC Website for reporting false or misleading statements made about a company
<< <i>This presents an interesting question: should PSA go after the person for filing libelous statements on a messageboard? >>
yes.
and they will at some point,
but in this case, I think the best
way for them to handle it would be to
just have someone at PSA take MW
out in a parking lot during the next big
card show and KICK HIS ASS.
that would pretty much send a message.
mostpsa10 on the Yahoo message board sounds like CrazySC.
Ron
<< <i>I would have to agree with Sean on this. After spending a great deal of time reading about this mess CU could have done more in the aftermath to provide reassurance to their customers. I did get the feeling that they wanted to keep this disaster as quiet as possible. It was not only WIWAG who wanted to downplay the fraud. >>
<< <i>I just felt that their updates were lacking in substance. >>
That was what I was implying. Just because you write or say something that does not mean that you are effectively communicating the facts. As a public company CU has certain legal requirements with regards to disclosures.
Regardless of CU's methods of handling this or what they should or should not have done, they certainly continue to hold the lion's share of the market.
Ron
Sean's right. As long as specific numbers are not revealed, the sky's the limit! This WIWAG fiasco is like the deficit...we all know it's there, but nobody wants to talk about it. Nevertheless, it's not going to go away. [much as PSA would like it to].
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
As for the WIWAG incident, if you go on eBay and look at WIWAG's feedback, you will notice that they bought a lot of cards too. I never bought a card from WIWAG nor Grade & Trade, but I do know a lot of people that did and most of those cards purchased by those collectors were not tampered with. Here's a message that was posted by "rob71rgd98" several months ago who did buy a bad card from WIWAG and this is probably the best perspective on the whole incident:
I agree that it would be ideal to have a list of PSA cards with potential WIWAG problems. However, I don't see how such a list could be compiled accurately, given the myriad sources from which such cards could have been submitted. And to me, an inaccurate list would be worse than no list at all.
Having said that, I believe it is not as big a problem as everyone here seems to think. I used to own a WIWAG-switched card, a 1966 PSA 8 Willie Mays. I bought the card directly from WIWAG in about January 2002. I remembered when I received it that I thought it was a little weak for an 8, but I was too busy to follow up on it at the time. After the scandal broke, I returned it to PSA for review, and they re-cased it into a PSA 7 slab. I received full restitution from WIWAG.
As for the PSA slab- it showed obvious signs of tampering. It was very clear in looking at the slab that it had been tampered with. The bottom edge was cloudy, not clear, and there was a small crack about 1/8" up from the bottom right corner. The slab had been sealed shut, but it was easy to detect the tampering, if you knew to look for it. Prior to the WIWAG scandal, I simply did not look as carefully at the slabs as I shold have. I have since gone through all my PSA cards to look for similar signs of tampering, and have found none. Whenever I purchase new cards, I always carefully examine the slabs for signs of tampering, as well as examine the card to see that it fits the grade. I strongly believe that WIWAG was not able to switch cards without showing some sign of tampering on the slab. I just don't believe it is possible to open a PSA slab without causing some damage to the slab. Therefore, I believe it is up to the collector to carefully inspect every PSA card purchased for signs of tampering, and also inspect the card itself to see if it appears to fit the grade.
Of course it would be great if we knew all the cards that were switched by WIWAG. However, I don't think PSA can be the source for that information. I'm sure WIWAG submitted many cards that were never tampered with. I also purchased one other card directly from WIWAG before the scandal- a 1966 PSA 9 common. I have examined that card very carefully, and I am absolutely certain that it is a legitimate 9. It is also probably true that WIWAG switched some cards that they bought elsewhere, i.e. that they did not submit themselves. So any list of cards submitted by WIWAG would not only include cards that were not tampered with, but would be missing cards that might be tampered with. Such a list would be worthless, or even less than worthless, i.e. dangerously misleading.
Collectors need to take responsibility for their own purchases.
Dude - great post !
By the way, My-Big-Toe ... err ... I mean Legatosys,
is now a part of the yahoo CLCT message board circus.
What's it doing to those guys guts to be so full of hate and bile ?
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
<< <i>Did the investigation ever reveal approximately how many cards were tampered with by this scumbag. Was it mostly vintage or newer stuff? I had one card from them and I thought about sending it back but I thought it was going to be more trouble than it was worth. There should be a way to get this info, unless a deal was cut to seal the results of the investigation. Anybody have any info on this subject. >>
Unless when it was a crime kept records of all they did, there is no way of truly knowing how many cards they tampered with.
Dan,
this is not consistent with my experiece, and I own about 350 SGC slabs, mostly from my own submissions over the past 5 years.
Other than a short period of time a few years ago, I have found thier holder virtually impossible to crack open without leaving obvious evidence.
edited for typos.
As for the information provided on the Yahoo forum I am not sure that it should all be discounted so quickly. Obviously this person or people have information that CU has not come out to publicly confirm or deny. Until such time I think that you cannot write off anything.
Never thought that buying cards would be more complicated than buying real estate. I have curbed my spending on expensive PSA slabs until I feel more comfortable. This is quite frustrating for me.
Thanks guys,
Ron
I also believe that in most cases where you see this white spotting it is because the pressure on the sonic sealer is "cranked" up, and these are the ones that are real bears to get open and rarely just split appart after being prised open at one corner or along one edge. So I'm not sure this is really "poor welding", but maybe you are right about that.
I do agree that these spots do not add anything to the aesthetics.
.......... but honestly, they don't bother me.