No! Pick up a guide of Cherrypickers' and they explain in the back all the varities and reasons for DD's. Pretty interesting read along with all the small coinage up to nickles. The new is expected to come out again in the near future which starts with dimes and goes up!
HEAD TUCKED AND ROLLING ALONG ENJOYING THE VIEW! [Most people I know!]
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!! Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
Absolutely not damaged! It is a die variety that is an unintentional variance from what was originally planned. Now strike doubling in all its forms is considered damage but I personally find them interesting and collectible. Just not worth a great premium unless they are dramatic.
The doubling is in the process of die making. Each die that is made with these errors is traceable back to the single die that made the error. The most popular is probably the 1955 Lincoln cent. Other double dies include coins like the 1942/41 Mercury dimes.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
richbeat it is a double die. I believe all overdates are double dies. Most of the times the only trace left from this doubling is the remnant old date. 1943/2 jefferson, 1918/7 D Buffalo. 1914/3 Buffalo. The only lincoln overdate is the 1958/7.
If you mean "Hub Doubling" or "Die Deteriation Doubling", I would say no, they are not forms of damadge.
If you mean "Mechanical Doubling", Then I would say yes, it is damadge, caused by the machine.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death! ~PATRICK HENRY~
The 1942 over 1941 are double dies. You see to have a double die you must misalign the hub or hub using a different master. In the case of the 1942 over 1941 there were two hubs one for 1941 and one for 1942. Part of the process includes anealing the die (that is to make it soft, so when it is hubbed it will take the impression. Impression one was from one die, and impression two was from a die with a different date.
It is called "Class II" or design hub doubling. On coins with very little wear the number 4 shows the exact type of doubling most think of as Doubled Dies. The 1943 over 1942 Jefferson is is also "Class II."
In the 1942 over 1941 Denver coin, there is doubling in "IN GOD WE TRUST," too.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
You guys are certainly correct!! I'm not sure what I was thinking, it is an overdate and a doubled die. Can I plead temporary insanity from watching the Colts finally win a playoff game?? My head wasn't on straight--I am embarrased! Thanks to all.
doubled dies are not errors, they are die varieties...two completely different things. The definition is separated for good reason and has been published a number of times in its separation by a number of sources to include John Wexler, CONECA, and the ANA. I do collect die varieties, I do not collect errors - and there are a number of people who collect one or the other but not both. It is important to have a distinction between them.
class 2 - distorted hub doubling. class 3 - design hub doubling. The 1942/1 dimes are indeed class 3.
Not ALL overdates are doubled dies. Doubled dies are caused by a hubbing technique. Pre-20th century coin series (to include those that extended into the 20th century) all included hand punching the date into the dies. Overdates from that era involved punching, not hubbing, thus are no more doubled dies than repunched mintmarks are. A Morgan dollar or Indian cent with an overdate are termed as such, and are not doubled dies. The 1942/1 dime and 1943/2 nickel are examples of two different dated hubs being used on a die, thus are class 3 doubled dies. Completely different technique that caused the overdate.
Answer to the original question, "Is a Doubled Die considered a Damaged Coin?"
No. Doubled dies are a flaw on the die, not on the coin. The flaw transfers its appearance from the die to the coin...the coin could technically still grade MS70 (or PR70) if it remains flawless as-struck, has superlative luster, and a sharp, clean strike. The doubling on the die has nothing to do with the grade of the coin. This is one area where doubled dies and machine doubling definitely differ. Machine doubling is always "damage" to the coin because the machine that struck the coin malfunctioned in some way causing a difference in the way a coin or group of coins were struck by what could likely be a completely normal die (no doubling at all). The coin was not struck as intended from the dies, thus is technically damaged. No coin with machine damage should be able to grade a perfect 70 if the damage is visible under a loupe.
Die deterioration doubling affects the design on the die, thus affects the design on the resulting coins. It mottles the fields, causes ridges around devices, and softens the overall design on the coin resulting in a dead, dull design with missing detail and lacking eye appeal. In my opinion that's enough in itself to knock any candidate coin down to a maximum of MS66, and softly struck coins with die deterioration doubling are even worse, attaining a grade no higher than MS63-64. I disagree that die deterioration doubling is not damage...if it can affect the grade, it's damage, regardless of what caused it.
Damage does not occur while the coin is being struck. Maybe flaws will lower the grade of the coin but as far as the coin being damaged not a chance. As soon as the coin leaves the striking process then damage can happen. Of course different opinions of what damage is are had by different people. Just because the coin is not MS70 does not put a coin into a catagory of a damaged coin.
I'd just like to thank you both for expressing your opinions, on this subject, in such a mature and intelligent manner.
The issue of whether we may, or may not, agree on every point, is of little consequence.
What is important, to me, is that I've exchanged ideas with fellow hobbiests, who obviously take what we do seriously.
Jody
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death! ~PATRICK HENRY~
dlimb2
Posts: 3,449
Comments
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
The 1942/1 Merc is an overdate, not a doubled die.
If you mean "Mechanical Doubling", Then I would say yes, it is damadge, caused by the machine.
Forbid it, Almighty God!
I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!
~PATRICK HENRY~
Oh you are incorrect.
The 1942 over 1941 are double dies.
You see to have a double die you must misalign the hub or hub using a different master. In the case of the 1942 over 1941 there were two hubs one for 1941 and one for 1942. Part of the process includes anealing the die (that is to make it soft, so when it is hubbed it will take the impression. Impression one was from one die, and impression two was from a die with a different date.
It is called "Class II" or design hub doubling. On coins with very little wear the number 4 shows the exact type of doubling most think of as Doubled Dies. The 1943 over 1942 Jefferson is is also "Class II."
In the 1942 over 1941 Denver coin, there is doubling in "IN GOD WE TRUST," too.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
The great numismatic divide occurs at time of strike. Anything that occurs post strike is "post strike modification".
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
class 2 - distorted hub doubling.
class 3 - design hub doubling. The 1942/1 dimes are indeed class 3.
Not ALL overdates are doubled dies. Doubled dies are caused by a hubbing technique. Pre-20th century coin series (to include those that extended into the 20th century) all included hand punching the date into the dies. Overdates from that era involved punching, not hubbing, thus are no more doubled dies than repunched mintmarks are. A Morgan dollar or Indian cent with an overdate are termed as such, and are not doubled dies. The 1942/1 dime and 1943/2 nickel are examples of two different dated hubs being used on a die, thus are class 3 doubled dies. Completely different technique that caused the overdate.
Answer to the original question, "Is a Doubled Die considered a Damaged Coin?"
No. Doubled dies are a flaw on the die, not on the coin. The flaw transfers its appearance from the die to the coin...the coin could technically still grade MS70 (or PR70) if it remains flawless as-struck, has superlative luster, and a sharp, clean strike. The doubling on the die has nothing to do with the grade of the coin. This is one area where doubled dies and machine doubling definitely differ. Machine doubling is always "damage" to the coin because the machine that struck the coin malfunctioned in some way causing a difference in the way a coin or group of coins were struck by what could likely be a completely normal die (no doubling at all). The coin was not struck as intended from the dies, thus is technically damaged. No coin with machine damage should be able to grade a perfect 70 if the damage is visible under a loupe.
Die deterioration doubling affects the design on the die, thus affects the design on the resulting coins. It mottles the fields, causes ridges around devices, and softens the overall design on the coin resulting in a dead, dull design with missing detail and lacking eye appeal. In my opinion that's enough in itself to knock any candidate coin down to a maximum of MS66, and softly struck coins with die deterioration doubling are even worse, attaining a grade no higher than MS63-64. I disagree that die deterioration doubling is not damage...if it can affect the grade, it's damage, regardless of what caused it.
That's my opinion on the subject.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
JMHO on AS coins.
Ken
I'd just like to thank you both for expressing your opinions, on this subject, in such a mature and intelligent manner.
The issue of whether we may, or may not, agree on every point, is of little consequence.
What is important, to me, is that I've exchanged ideas with fellow hobbiests, who obviously take what we do seriously.
Jody
Forbid it, Almighty God!
I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!
~PATRICK HENRY~