60's Topps FB - the really tough ones
Fuzz
Posts: 903
The recent post by John Basilone on the 65's and the Charley Smith card, I thought were wonderful. Very insightful info and tips on the set. It set me to thinking about FB from that time. I have collected enough of it to know that there are some painful cards there as well. Same company, same equipment, it would make sense. So, I did a pop report study of regualr issue 60's Topps FB in PSA 8 or better.
I know that some of these do not have the submission volume of BB and that is part of the issue with the low pop but not necessarily all the story. Low submission cards could also mean that the cards are so o/c or m/c that they may just not be worth submitting. Time will tell.
I was amazed to find that as of 12/29/03 pop report there are still a handful of pop ZERO cards. I have listed the total submissions for the card () as a reference. The pop zeroes are:
1968 #140 Jerry Smith (1), 1968 #176 Don Trull (2), 1968 #27 Carroll Dale (4), 1964 #147 Bob Mischak (4), 1963 #122 Ed Brown (4), 1965 Dick Westmoreland (7), 1963 #61 Bill Wade (9), 1965 #45 Odell Barry (11), and the grand champion.................. 1966 #132 Checklist (28).
Observations on these are that the 1964 set has many cards that are very undersubmitted with many at four or less total submissions. Most of the 68 set has a reasonable number of submissions except for the three pop zeroes and two pop ones (#135 Tucker Fredrickson 1 of 4 and #210 Maxie Baughan 1 of 2). Pop twos are quite common place in the 60's and I quite listing them after awhile. The 1960, 61 and 69 have all cards at pop three or higher.
There are also a total of 21 cards that are currently pop one in PSA 8 or better. Ten of these are from 1964 and seem to be due to a very low submission rate (five or less). Two mentioned earlier were from 1968. The 1962 set has only one card of pop one which is #131 Preston Carpenter (and only two pop twos which are Joe Perry (12) and #112 Jim Patton (11)). 1963 has #132 Tom Bettis (5), #168 Claude Crabb (7), #23 Bob Gain (10), and #145 49'ers team (12). The 1967 set has two #131 Speedy Duncan (4) and #85 Norm Evans(7). The 1966 set has only one pop one which is #131 Ernie Wright (9).
The remaining eight are all tall boys with a reasonable number of submissions. They are # Ron Burton (11), #25 Al Bemiller (11), #132 Dalva Allen (11), #6 Jim Colclough (12), #83 Jim Norton (12), #64 Jerry Sturm (14), #2 Houston Antwine (15), #3 Niclk Bouniconti (24).
Clearly, buying these cards pre-slabbed is quite a challenge in many cases and makes these sets very trying on the nerves. One other interesting note is that the numbers 131 and 132 show up on the list several times. I do not know if these sheets were laid out numerically the same from year to year but I will put some effort into finding out. If you are looking through 60's FB commons, you may want to keep these in mind and if your waiting to buy these on eBay, get a beer ....... it may be a while.
Fuzz
I know that some of these do not have the submission volume of BB and that is part of the issue with the low pop but not necessarily all the story. Low submission cards could also mean that the cards are so o/c or m/c that they may just not be worth submitting. Time will tell.
I was amazed to find that as of 12/29/03 pop report there are still a handful of pop ZERO cards. I have listed the total submissions for the card () as a reference. The pop zeroes are:
1968 #140 Jerry Smith (1), 1968 #176 Don Trull (2), 1968 #27 Carroll Dale (4), 1964 #147 Bob Mischak (4), 1963 #122 Ed Brown (4), 1965 Dick Westmoreland (7), 1963 #61 Bill Wade (9), 1965 #45 Odell Barry (11), and the grand champion.................. 1966 #132 Checklist (28).
Observations on these are that the 1964 set has many cards that are very undersubmitted with many at four or less total submissions. Most of the 68 set has a reasonable number of submissions except for the three pop zeroes and two pop ones (#135 Tucker Fredrickson 1 of 4 and #210 Maxie Baughan 1 of 2). Pop twos are quite common place in the 60's and I quite listing them after awhile. The 1960, 61 and 69 have all cards at pop three or higher.
There are also a total of 21 cards that are currently pop one in PSA 8 or better. Ten of these are from 1964 and seem to be due to a very low submission rate (five or less). Two mentioned earlier were from 1968. The 1962 set has only one card of pop one which is #131 Preston Carpenter (and only two pop twos which are Joe Perry (12) and #112 Jim Patton (11)). 1963 has #132 Tom Bettis (5), #168 Claude Crabb (7), #23 Bob Gain (10), and #145 49'ers team (12). The 1967 set has two #131 Speedy Duncan (4) and #85 Norm Evans(7). The 1966 set has only one pop one which is #131 Ernie Wright (9).
The remaining eight are all tall boys with a reasonable number of submissions. They are # Ron Burton (11), #25 Al Bemiller (11), #132 Dalva Allen (11), #6 Jim Colclough (12), #83 Jim Norton (12), #64 Jerry Sturm (14), #2 Houston Antwine (15), #3 Niclk Bouniconti (24).
Clearly, buying these cards pre-slabbed is quite a challenge in many cases and makes these sets very trying on the nerves. One other interesting note is that the numbers 131 and 132 show up on the list several times. I do not know if these sheets were laid out numerically the same from year to year but I will put some effort into finding out. If you are looking through 60's FB commons, you may want to keep these in mind and if your waiting to buy these on eBay, get a beer ....... it may be a while.
Fuzz
Wanted: Bell Brands FB and BB, Chiefs regionals especially those ugly milk cards, Coke caps, Topps and Fleer inserts and test issues from the 60's. 1981 FB Rack pack w/ Jan Stenerud on top.
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Comments
Fuzz,
Good Post!!
I was the reason the John created that post and it is great to see you follow up with another in the nature of the last.There is a wealth of collective information among the collectors of this board and I hope others are willing to share what they have learned over the years about their area of interest. I think that the sharing of this information might inspire others to pursue sets that they might have only wondered about. I am certainly learning quite a bit about many sets.Can you give some thoughts about pricing(% of SMR that major star cards and commons will and/or have been going for).
Thanks,
Vic
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
Fuzz - great post.
Of course, Philadelphia Gum and Fleer are nearly as important as Topps for 1960's football,
and the PSA populations of high grade cards for those sets is also quite low.
Having spent years scouring eBay for certain cards,
plus card shows, including two full days at this past National,
I've come to the conclusion that some of these cards simply do not exist in PSA 8 type condition.
That, or the nice ones are being held by people that have no interest in having them graded OR selling them.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
Time will tell. My own opinion is that submissions will increase significantly and so will pops in 8 across the board.
I recently submitted most cards from 63 Topps, 64 Topps, 66 Topps and 67 Topps from what I considered to be nrmt-mt ingraded sets. Will be interesting to see where these come out.
Jim
I'd love to see those invoices if you wouldn't mind sharing...
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
Of course. I just submitted 1000 cards of which exactly 500 were vintage football. Just remind me in late January if you would.
Jim
Jim, I sent you an email a few days ago. Was wondering if you received it. Please let me know.
Matt
I looked at them quickly and maybe I will be unpleasantly surprised but the 66s and 67s I submitted I thought looked spectacular across the board. Will be glad to let you know but please remind me in late January.
Ironranger,
Just returned fromm vaca but I gave quick scan of e-mails and do not believe I saw it.
Jim
I apologize for the off-topic post...
Jim,
I am sure that you are right in that all these pops will go way up over time. But the idea of the post is the relative populations and whether they will stay the same. I think it has been well established that not all commons are created equal. This was a rough first pass at what might be "more equal" than others. Glad to have you join us on FB. I found in my own stuff that 66's were regularly 1 to 2 grades less than what I thought and the 67's were about right. Maybe you will have better results.
Art,
I have two very nicely centered #132's already so I know they exist. One is a 6 for corners and one is a 6mk. Pretty nice. I thought the one could 8 on a good day and the one tiny mark on the back is very small.
Frank,
Stonegate sent a few "fresh cards" my way over the last several years as well. It seems that currently "up" is not to high on the pops. Certainly they will go higher but I think a key will be knowing which cards are going to stay lower in pop. There seems to be a reason for these cards to be low pop but I think more work has to be put into it to better assess the ultimate outcome. Thanks for the photo.
Vic,
Thanks for the inspiration. Most of the stars from these years can often be had 20% to 50% below SMR with patience depending on the star. The pops for most stars are much higher than the current demand warrants. High pop commons are often minimum bid and can be up to 70% below SMR depending on the sellers risk of a low starting bid. 20% below is usually adequate. On the higher pop stuff ---- Good God. 100's of percent SMR is not uncommon for the 1/1 PSA 9's or the low pop 8's. There are still many more people shopping for those than there are cards available at this point. They will certainly come down but probably not anytime soon.
Fuzz
PS. Wolfbear -- I get the hint. I will try to sit down in the next few days and take a look at the Philly and the Fleer. SOme of those have been driving me nuts too.