Dillema

slothman2000

I purchased a 1909-s vdb in June to finish out my Lincoln set. I bought this coin from a "reputable" dealer in town. The coin was shown to a couple other dealers in the area and they said that it was problem free for the grade. Well, for Christmas, I bought myself a Membership to PCGS and decided to send this coin in to get slabbed. I really didn't want to do it for I just wanted it in my album raw, it is a set of raw coins and slabs just throw off the set in my eyes, but then I figured I would just pay the fee for the peace of mind and I could just break it out and put it back in the album if I so chosed. Well, to make a long story short, the coin got body bagged as "Not Genuine". My question is, how would you approach this. There are so many questions that are going to be asked such as, "they switched it", why did you wait so long" etc. etc.etc....This coin was a solid xf so you know that I have some money invested...

kranky

I would go back to the dealer and say "You might remember I got this SVDB from you. I sent it in and it came back from PCGS as "not genuine". See what happens.

If you don't think there's much chance he is going to remember you, it could be tough. If he doesn't know you, and it's been 6 months, I wouldn't blame him for wondering if the coin got switched.

BAJJERFAN

Well after this amount of time I think you are probly SOL. Unless the dealer remembers the coin how does he know that you didn't do a switcheroo on him. Not that you would but just mentioning the possibility.
I think that many believe that a dealer is an expert in all series. Well the fact that so many seem to be able to cherrypick a dealer says that aint so. I would talk to him and see what he says.

DRUNNER

Bottom line . . .the dealer should make 'good' on it. I don't care how many S-VDB's anyone sells . . they are like your first kiss . . . you don't forget them. He should remember and most likely recognize the coin . . . then tell him exactly why you waited until December to send it in (not that it matters).

If the guy is 'reputable' you need to approach him with the exact facts and give him an opportunity to rectify the situation first. Then . . if there is a problem (switching, length of time to discover, etc.) you can proceed. IF that happens . . . is the dealer an ANA or PNG member? Do you do a lot of business there OR are you a long-time customer (if so . . . I can't imagine the guy giving you problems . . . ) ?

So . . . in a non-combative manner, approach him and give him the facts. Most likely, he will honor his obligation to warrant the coin as genuine for a lifetime. Vitually all 'reputable' dealers do . . .

More questions . . . PM me . . .

Drunner
ANA Sectional Rep

UncleJoe

Reputable or not it may surprise you the vast difference in knowledge among "dealers" from very little to extensive.

This is the one area where I highly agree with the need for "grading" services, authentification. IMO this is the most valuable service that they perform.

Joe.

DRUNNER

and . . .

All 4 dies of the S-VDB are particularly recognizable. You owe yourself the time to get familiar with the diagnostics of EVERY key date you purchase (if not certified by a major service with a guarantee). There are references on every key date and those 'in the know' on these Boards can point you in the right direction if you need help. 93-S dollars . . .55 DDO Lincolns . . . 14-D Lincolns . . . 01-S quarters . . .16-D dimes . . . each (and all others) have tell-tale die diagnostics that can at least help.

Your first line of defense ALWAYS . . . know the diagnostics of every key date . . . and be suspect anyway if not certified! Too many bogus 'coins' out there . . . and many are SCARY good!

Not what you want to hear now, I know. But . . .good luck on this . . .

Striker

My local dealer has a 9svdb and also the merc 16d, both raw. I've been drooling over both of them for awhile now. Your expierence makes me think that if I ever do have enough cash to buy one or both of them that I'll have them send it in for slabbing and buy it once it comes back as real.

razorface1027

My local dealer has a 9svdb and also the merc 16d, both raw. I've been drooling over both of them for awhile now. Your expierence makes me think that if I ever do have enough cash to buy one or both of them that I'll have them send it in for slabbing and buy it once it comes back as real.

Striker;
If yer droolin' that much over them, buy them on a contingency basis. Let the dealer send them to the grading company of yer choice, you pay fer the grading, and if they are returned to the dealer BODYBAGGED then you can stop droolin'; furthermore, you can find another "Reputable" dealer...

Russ

slothman2000,

Don't automatically assume PCGS got it right. They are not the end all be all, and make plenty of mistakes. Can you post images here? There are a couple bonified Lincoln experts that hang at these forums - people who've probably forgotten more about these then the graders at PCGS ever knew.

Russ, NCNE

BAJJERFAN

<<"My local dealer has a 9svdb and also the merc 16d, both raw. I've been drooling over both of them for awhile now. Your expierence makes me think that if I ever do have enough cash to buy one or both of them that I'll have them send it in for slabbing and buy it once it comes back as real.">>

How many eBayers have been taken to task here for listing raw coins that would be better off slabbed? Same thing for a dealer! If you have a high dollar key date why not get it slabbed instead of trying to sell it raw?

Shamika

Let's see a closeup image of the mint mark. I'm guessing it's been added.

I'm also guessing that the dealer knew what he was selling. It's not like a 1909-S VDB is anything exotic. If PCGS got it right and it isn't genuine, I'd bet if you offered to sell it back to the dealer, he'd spot it as a fake immediately.

I could be wrong however.

sinin1

I was going to suggest taking it back to the dealer and see if he wanted to buy it back - without telling them PCGS opinion -

also before splurging on a raw frequently counterfeited "key" from a dealer - I think I would offer a $20 downpayment on an agreed upon price - for them to send it in to get graded (PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG) - if they hem and haw about turning-over inventory and time away, etc - I probably would think about doing business with them - problem I could see if it came back a better grade than both of you expected.

slothman2000

Thanks for all the responses and pm's that I got. I have learned many valuable lessons from this experience. The most important is probably that perception of trust from someone that you deal with on a very frequent basis still has to be seriously scrutinized. I have seen with the advent of ebay and all the other auction venues that are out there, you have to realize that there are many sharks basking in the waters waiting for a piece of easy meat. We live in a society where trust rather being the rule...is the exception....

sinin1

there maybe some sharks - but also the dealer you bought this coin from could have been one in a long line (including yourself) that felt this coin was the real deal


and would possibly take as a return or trade to get it off the market -

slothman2000

I may have been hasty in my last remark. I have done some further research into the whole counterfeiting business and one of the things that is said the you should do is buy from a reputable dealer, for he is bound by a code of ethics to back his product. What baffles me is that this guy didn't fall off the milk truck yesterday. He has been doing this for many years, used to run the coin show circuit and is getting close to retirement. If someone with the background that he has can't detect a fake, I guess it makes me feel alittle better that I, or alot of other people can't either...as I said...a dillema.

lava

I know this does not address the initial question, and I know many will not agree with me, but to spare yourself such pain in the future, I would avoid buying raw coins.

braddick

Genuine coins are warranted against being counterfeit forever by most reputable Firms.

JJ69

I'm of the train of thought as others here suggested - Go back and play dumb for a minute.
Nothing drawn out - Just to draw him into saying he remembers it,as well he should.
I would just stroll on in and say hey,I'm looking to sell this VDBS I bought from you,and I thought
I'd give you first dibs on it.
If he wants to deal,readily recalls the transaction ,then theres no need to string him along - He probably
got duped also.
If he clams up,starts stammering or professes a lack of remembering selling it .. Then thats the time
to lay it on him,I guess.
In either case,right,you can't really prove you didn't switch it,unless perhaps the old guy distinctly
remembers that coin and says so.
In any case,you know your right,and perhaps the guy will at least go half way towards making
it right.
When right is on your side,you can sometimes go through mountains.

I would also bring a companion along .. Perhaps even sending him in a few minutes ahead to browse
and make it look like your not together,so that if the old guy admits to remembering it and selling it to
you,and later denies it in court,you'll have a witness.
You may not be planning on going this route,but you can never tell.


I'm going to get a few coins slabbed in the near future,and am studying the process.
Its tough to belive that the 3,4 maybe more professionals who examined your coin could
all be wrong ... But is there no way you could get further clarification other than 'not genuine' ?
I guess that wouldn't do a world of good if you could,as the likely reply would be ' s mint mark added
to 1909 VDB'.

You titled your post correctly,for a dillema it is.
I'm glad to see,though,that you don't seem to despondent or hot headed about the matter.
One must always,always put things in perspective,and this one will probably go down in the
'live and learn' category',as your no doubt aware.

Good luck and Happy New Years all.

au58

Address the issue directly with the dealer. Do not do anything covert. You don't want to sell it to him, so don't give him that impression. You want your money back because it's fake. You are entitled to a refund.

Wondo

I agree with au58. Approach the dealer directly, explain the situation just as you did in the original post. Playing dumb or doing any shenanigins reduces your credibility.

Blade

When I first re-entered coin collecting, I went to a local dealer to buy some type coins. I don't know that he has a great reputation but been in business for a while. I bought 4 coins priced $100-$200 each. 6 months later after joining PCGS, 3 got returned bodybag for cleaning. Learned my first hard lesson.

Decided it was easier to just get out of the coins. I went back to the dealer, told him I changed my mind, and he gave me 90% of my money back. I figured it was my responsibility as a newbie to determine if the coins were cleaned, and it's hard to define a value for an old coin that has been cleaned and retoned. I'm glad it only cost me $30-$40 to learn this one. Would I have preferred to get these off the market? I don't know. I did tell the dealer that I got advice that the coins were cleaned, probably long ago. He said that most older type coins were cleaned at one time or another (!). Last time I bought raw from that guy.

Tsimmerdown

Forget the dealer!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's what you should do:

Put up the item on Ebay with mediocre photos and add ***(((((LOTS OF HYPE!!!!!!!!!))))))***** <---------- LOOK!!!!!!

Start the auction at $0.01 with no reserve! Offer no claims to it's authenticity and make sure you state several times that the coin is sold "as is" and no refunds will be given once sold!

I will be your shill, and we can get that auction up to an acceptable selling price to some unsuspecting noober.

PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, seriously.. I'm only kidding. I know, not very helpful. If I were you, I would return it to the dealer, be honest with him the way you have told your story here, and hopefully he will give you a refund for the coin. If he doesn't give you a refund, take your lumps and you'll have learned a useful lesson. You'll also know not to patronize that dealer in the future...

nankraut

I think AU58 & Wondo have the best suggestion. Be honest and above board; take the coin to the dealer, and see what his response is. If he's reputable (it sounds like he is), you should be able to resolve this issue without too much problem. Maybe you and he can split the cost of submitting the coin to NGC for a second opinion. Second opinions have saved people's lives...I know for a fact.

291fifth

You should make a try at getting your money back from the dealer. Unfortunately, this is just another example of why better coins should ALWAYS be bought already slabbed by a reputable service.

slothman2000

Like I said , many lessoned learned, one being not to by raw key dates. I have a few more to buy, and they all will be slabbed....I haven't got the coin back from PCGS yet, but I will post pics/scans so we can all get a further lesson in identifying fakes (if it is in fact a fake), I was thinking about a second opinion, do you think I would qualify for the bag prize if Mr. Hall's people were wrong...More later...thanks for all the feedback...

Russ

<< <i>but I will post pics/scans so we can all get a further lesson in identifying fakes (if it is in fact a fake) >>



Good. PCGS is NOT infallible.

Russ, NCNE