counterfeit morgans

Idahosilver

Been a bit concerned with the counterfeit talk in a few of the threads.
Is there any easy way to tell a fake from a real morgan??
It may be tough by a picture but can one tell if comparing a real one with a fake side by side.
Any ideas would be helpful.
TIA
Don

darktone

I think the best way to detect counterfeits is to look some over and get a feel for what a fake one looks like compared to a real one. mike

dollardude

This is a very good question. I have some real experience in this area that I would be happy to share with my forum friends. I have spoken to a coin dealer who was ripped off big time, and have also spoken with collectors who were also ripped off. Here is what I have learned.

Real:
- Drop it (gently), and it "rings" just right.
- Wear looks about the same on both sides.
- About the right weight per Red Book.
- Rims look sharp on both sides if uncirculated, worn if circulated.
- If it is in a well-known slab, chances are good that it is real. However, this is not a guarantee. Double-check all key dates.
- No apparent seam where someone could have joined two common halves together to produce a key date.
- No dirty pitting marks.
- Normal luster or toning.
- Key dates have specific die attributes that you MUST check for, slabbed or not, e.g., all genuine 1893-S's were made with a single die with a die crack in "LIBERTY" and a slightly raised "3".

Fake:
- Drop it (gently), and it doesn't "ring" just right.
- Wear is considerably different on both sides.
- Wrong weight per the Red Book.
- Rims do not look sharp on both sides if uncirculated, or are not similar on both sides if circulated.
- If it is raw, it could be a fake if it is a key date or a high grade.
- Seam somewhere on or in the rim where someone could have joined two common halves together to produce a key date.
- Dirty pitting marks. By this, I mean that a counterfeiter could strike a coin, but usually the die is not perfect, so you see a lot of "pitting".
- Abnormal luster or toning. By this, I mean that a counterfeiter usually does not use the correct mix of metals. This means that the fake piece will tone differently.
- Key dates will not have the correct die attributes.

I hope this helps.

sinin1

the ones that I have seen were so ugly, I would not want them anyway

- I may have seen some that fooled me? do not know

lordmarcovan

What sinin1 just said.

I think most counterfeit Morgan dollars were contemporary counterfeits, designed to pass in commerce, but not sophisticated enough to fool a collector, for the most part.

Altered genuine coins that were tampered with to appear as if they were key-date or rare-date coins ARE a danger, though.

Unless you are going after the really expensive or rare ones, the marketplace should be (mostly) safe. If you are about to drop a big chunk o' change on a rare date or variety, though, it is a good idea to know what you're looking for and/or to have the coin certified.

DRUNNER

Dollardude has a list worth saving. I echo the idea that for all key dates, certification by one of the major services with a guarantee is the only way to go. Most of the more established Board members here have probably heard rumors of even better counterfeits being produced using technology beyond what is normally seen. With so much hush-hush potential in the counterfeit world . . I'd stay with certification.

Let's say you buy a '93-S in VF20 or so. The dealer isn't going to tack on another $12-20 due to the slabbing fee . . . so certified v. raw seems a no-brainer for the average collector.

razorface1027

As soon as I hear/read "COUNTERFIET MORGANS," I immediately think PROZAC.

dcarr

<< <i>As soon as I hear/read "COUNTERFIET MORGANS," I immediately think PROZAC. >>



There are a lot of common-date counterfeit Morgans starting to come out of Asia.
They are not very good quality, but could pass if mixed in with lots of circulated coins.

These are not made of silver, so a simple "ring" test would be an easy way to detect them.

dollardude

<< Dollardude has a list worth saving. I echo the idea that for all key dates, certification by one of the major services with a guarantee is the only way to go. Most of the more established Board members here have probably heard rumors of even better counterfeits being produced using technology beyond what is normally seen. With so much hush-hush potential in the counterfeit world . . I'd stay with certification.

Let's say you buy a '93-S in VF20 or so. The dealer isn't going to tack on another $12-20 due to the slabbing fee . . . so certified v. raw seems a no-brainer for the average collector. >>

Thank you for the kind comments. I have friends who were full-time dealers (a married couple) who were ripped off BIG TIME, as in thousands of dollars. Let this be a lesson to all of us. They told me HOW they were ripped off, and that really stuck in my mind. They only detected it later when it was too late by weighing the dollars, by noticing the pitted surfaces, and by noticing the unusual toning.

The dealer usually goes by the CDN greysheet ask/bid, and then "tweaks" these two numbers based on what kind of a deal you work out as a retail sales price to the buyer (or maybe to another dealer for that matter). He/she rarely, if ever, uses the bluesheet (for slabbed coins). So, I agree that the slabbing fee is rarely included. However, slabbed coins ususally sell at a premium because they are slabbed. I can assure you that a 93-S slabbed will sell for considerably more in the same grade than a raw one.

Idahosilver

Thaks to all who responded.
I live in a small rural area and nearly every Sunday a local second hand/auction house
holds an auction of various household goods, tools,furniture or whatever.
They were advertising this week and listed "rare coins" in addition to various items.
Listed were:
1885 $5 Gold, 1907 $5 Gold, 1834 Bust half, 1811 half cent, 1841 Seated Liberty Dollar,
Morgans..1878-cc,1882-cc,1883-cc,1891-cc,1892-cc..all BU
and the kicker is a 1893-s in fine condition.
I dropped in to check them out but did so real fast (had my 5 yr old with me)
The two $5 golds were slabbed and appeared authentic. The morgans are all in
2 x 2 holders. They appear real but now armed with the information you
have provided I will go back in to really give them a good look.
I am very puzzled and cautious as this selection just seems a bit too interesting.
Even the 1811 half cent is rather rare.
I am thinking perhaps they provide the real GOLDS to provide legitimacy to the other
coins being offered and maybe they are not real?
Thanks again to all who gave good advice.
Don

sinin1

many times small local auction houses have real coins

you just have to be very careful in the auction process - they frequently call bids very fast, the call from phantom bidders, and if they do not get what they want, they make up a bogus bidder number as the winner and the sell it again in a couple months



so you may be bidding at the start - and stop and 5 bids later, you won