So how do you grade darkside coins?

hoardmonster

With US coins you have things to go by such as the headdress, ribbon, liberty on an Indian Head Cent. No such guidelines with world coins that I know of.

Any pointers???

historygeek

If you buy "native" coin catalogues they usually have grading pointers like that, but KM does not so it is mostly experience.

hoardmonster

<< <i>If you buy "native" coin catalogues they usually have grading pointers like that, >>



Ahhh now I get it. Thanks historygeek. Sometimes my common sense takes a vacation.

lordmarcovan

There are guidelines for world coin grading in Krause. Here is my VERY general, boiled-down condensation of them.

Learn to grade world coins using the general guidelines I'll provide below, and you can then grade most US stuff pretty close to ANA standards... without ever opening a book!

Here's a simple but usually pretty accurate way to grade just about ANY coin, including most U.S. coins. It's very generalized but easy to commit to memory.

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UNC- no wear. Comparable to most generic coins that grade MS63 or lower on the 70-point American (Sheldon) scale. (Krause "BU" is for better material- they don't use separate UNC and BU price columns in many cases, but they do on some, notably modern Mexican.)

AU- only the faintest rub on the highest points. 95-99% of the original detail remaining. (Krause does not list AU prices, except for maybe Canadian or American coins, but you can price AU coins by using their EF and UNC prices).

EF- At least 90% of the original detail.

VF- At least 75% of the original detail.

Fine- At least 50% of the original detail.

VG- Generally about 25% of the original detail. Major design features will have a trace of detail remaining, but will be heavily worn. Krause does not price VG coins except for early-date material.

Good- only an outline of the major design features. The rim may be weak in areas but will generally be full.

AG- rims are worn down into the lettering and/or design. Only a silhouette of the major design features will show.

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The key to simplifying grading is to think in terms of percentages.

In fact, it would theoretically make a helluva lot more sense to grade coins with a 100-point scale tied to these percentages, rather than the 70-point Sheldon scale used for American coins, but the 70-point scale is established by tradition, and when you get into the many different Uncirculated grades the percentage system falls apart. For example, that generic, scuffy UNC coin (MS60 on the Sheldon scale), and the absolutely perfect, microscopically flawless UNC coin (MS70 on the Sheldon scale) are both equal on the percentage scale, with 100% of their detail. So to use a 100-point scale, you'd actually have to have something like a 110 point scale, if you know what I mean.

Note that many world coins will have very simplistic designs, sometimes lettering only, making them tough to grade. I generally use low magnification (3X-5X) for grading. Too much and you tend to be less forgiving, too little, and, well- let's just say my eyes ain't what they used to be. I turn 38 the day after tomorrow and I recently bought my first pair of reading glasses. The hearing aid ain't too far behind, but hopefully it'll be a while yet before I need a cane or a walker!

Anyway, before I got sidetracked on my geriatric topic there, I was talkin' about simplistic, hard-to-grade coins with very little relief design and mostly (or all) lettering. On these coins, you have to pick the major feature and grade by that. For example, let's say you have a coin that is all lettering except for a small crown, or maybe a wreath around the letters, with no other design to speak of. In that case, you would grade the coin based on the detail in that little crown (or wreath, or whatever).

With practice, it really is quite easy in most cases, once you've sorted a few bulk lots and gained a little experience. My grading of U.S. coins became much more accurate after I learned to grade world coins.

SYRACUSIAN

Lordmarkovan's guide is an excellent starting point for grading world coins. However, when it comes to grade uncirculated coins , where a single point can be translated into hundreds of dollars (yes, it happens with world coins too, although not as much as with US coins) , it's important to know the coins a little bit more in depth, such as shillings or pennies for example. It's important to know when a weak strike is customary for a particular date or mint ,or if the dies of another coin/date have specific flaws. There's no such thing as Photograde for non US coins, but the collectors who specialize in a country or denomination , eventually get to learn some valuable tips.

Askari

Excellent "short course" LM!! One other major difference with world coins is that grades are more strictly technical than market. The "plain design" types are indeed the hardest. Like Dimitri said, for Unc., you simply have to become familiar with the specific series, just as with US coins. Aside from the TPGs, few world coin collectors or dealers employ the MS60-70 "micrograding" standard. You're most likely to see only Ch. BU, Gem BU, and sometimes "Select BU" (or FDC). Contrary to Krause's table, the grades used in different countries are not necessarily equivalent. MS-60, for instance, would not rate "stempelglanz" in German grading, which requires at least MS-63. VF, in particular, can be broader or narrower than in the US, so when you refer to "native" guides and catalogs, you have to keep this in mind.

Fairlaneman

How about a coins luster. Does luster make up part of the grade on a AU World Coin or does it just pertain to a UNC coin ?

Thanks for the short course.

Ken

Askari

Does the blush of a rose enhance its beauty? Remember, the Dark Side encompasses far more centuries and metals than the Liteside has to offer and they all have their influences. For very modern coins, certainly luster should be present on uncleaned Unc. and, to a lesser degree, AU coins, but the quality of the luster has more to do with the desirability -- and, hence, value -- of the coin than with its grade, per se. A lustrous red copper would almost always be more desirable than a brown example of the same technical grade.

In the same vein, toning is just becoming a draw with world coins and, even there, mostly with US collectors. Accordingly, you will not see the price multiples common with US coins of comparable color. This also means that AT hasn't really begun to infect world coins yet. The colors can, though, be much more variable than with US coins. World coin alloys vary, for one thing, but also the wide variety of methods of storage allows for even more variation.

tbirde56

Great thread!
Of course, in judging wear on a particular design or series it is inherent that you know what an Unc coin looks like as well as how wear appears on worn coins. Sounds stupid but grading is nothing more than comparing 2 or more examples. The more examples in experience, the more accurate the estimate of grade. You have to have some familiarity of what parts of the coins exhibit wear as the basis of any judgement. So, if you have only seen 1 coin to judge its grade by you are likely to be only making a close general estimate at best. Of course, Unc is Unc and no wear would seem to be easiest to judge, in theory, but as was said above, there are weak designs on some world coins that appear to be worn flat in spots and you will never find any better. They are Unc since thay've seen no circulation but the term 'weak' would be a neccessary appellation to the grade. Also, some stricter grading standards may apply for some countries, such as Swiss coins, that would make an ordinary Unc coin only an AU because of even the slightest rub.
With the huge amount of variety and volume of Darkside coins compared to the limited number and designs of Liteside coins it may take a lifetime to amass enough experience and knowledge to be considered anywhere near an expert. In my opinion, Litesiders are limiting themselves to a very small sliver of numismatics and unaware of the wealth of knowledge that lies waiting out there to be gobbled up and shared. It's a great hobby!

-What non-U.S. references DO state specific grading conditions for specific designs or series?-

I believe Charlton does for Canada but I don't have a copy. Any others?

Here are a couple that I've run across online:
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*Grading for Canadian Victorian pieces:
G-4: Braid worn thru near ear.
VG-8: No detail in braid near ear.
F-12: Segments of braid blurring into others.
VF-20: Braid clear but not sharp.
XF-40: Braid slightly worn but generally sharp and clear.
AU-50: Slight wear on high points.
U-60+: No wear.

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I have seen a couple descriptions for grading Aussie coins:
*Grading 1910-36 Pennies: by Number of Pearls which can be seen in the headband.
G. No pearls
VG. 2 pearls
F. 4 pearls
VF. 6 pearls (Centre diamond visible)
EF. 8 pearls
Unc. 8 pearls & lustre.
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*Quick guide to grading Aussie George V silver coins:
Shillings and florins are the easiest.
Start with the obverse. The highest point on the design is the band on the crown and this tends to wear quickly. The crown band contains eight "pearls" arranged as four pairs. The second and third pairs bracket a diamond shape. The second pair of diamonds will wear away first.

If all eight pearls are visible the coin is probably EF or better. If the second pair of pearls is missing but the diamond is intact and the other six pearls are clear then you have a VF coin. Six pearls but no diamond means F. Four pearls only means VG. Lower grades as for the reverse ...

Now look at the reverse. Pay attention to the feathers on the emu, the shoulder and haunch of the kangaroo, the star above the shield and the lettering in the scroll below the tableau.

An EF coin will have sharp ridges on the star, all or very nearly all of the feathers on the emu will be distinct and there'll be virtually no wear on the kangaroo. A VF coin will have noticeable wear on the roo and some feathers left on the emu. The star will be worn but still pretty sharp. By the time the emu's feathers are all gone and the star is looking a bit sad the coin has deteriorated to F but note that the lettering in the scroll is still distinct. When the letters in the scroll start to run together and the emu and kangaroo are pretty much flat the grade has dropped to VG but such a coin will still have a good rim with all denticles visible. When the rim has deteriorated beyond that stage you have a shim or washer, i.e. a coin which is G or worse.

An EF coin will usually have a fair amount of lustre, particularly in the protected fields. A VF coin may have traces of lustre but anything below that will not.
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I also have a Grading Page on my web site that is need of a lot of work or help too but may be of small assistance.

hoardmonster

Thanks LordM, great little course there. I'm impressed! And thanks to you other contributors for all of the very helpful information.

1jester

Excellent posts, LordMarcovan, Dimitri, Tbirde and Askari!!!!