just wanted to share a photo -- 1610/09 gold ducat

DennisH

A couple of years ago the lure of great age, high grade, and what seemed a cheap price grabbed my attention when I saw this coin on eBay. Being a sucker for overdates sealed the deal. It was, by the way, originally in an NGC-55 holder.

-- Dennis

1jester

Awesome ducat, Dennis!!!

As a side note, now I know that PCGS will slab bent coins. I was wondering about that myself. Most gold coins minted before 1700 are bent.

Askari

Neat one, Dennis!!

DennisH

Hello 1jester!

Although my scan makes the ducat appear bent, it's really only an optical illusion. The planchet surface of this very thin coin is quite irregular but it is definately not bent.

I'd be extremely cautious about assuming PCGS will grade bent coins, although I've seen several U.S. 1652 Pine Tree shillings in holders that looked obviously bent to me.

1jester

Dennis, it's nice to have you posting over here!

And I do think it's a nice coin. Even though it appears bent to me. In my experience, about 95% or more of all gold coins prior to the middle 18th century are bent. It's extremely hard to find good examples that haven't been bent or scratched to test for gold content. I think this was a very common occurence because there have been so many wars in Europe, and over time, it was very common for people's collections to be either stolen or used for emergencies, and when non-collectors or non-experts see gold, they almost invariably have bent the coins in order to see if it's really gold. Inspite of this, I don't think most European collectors find bent coins unattractive, since they are still rare and sought after. Perhaps because I'm American, I'm a bit turned off by bent coins and try to cherry pick the unbent, unscratched ones when I can, but it's really hard to find unbent early gold. At least in my experience. Naturally, the early ducats lend themselves easily to bending due to the thinness of their planchets.

edited for grammar.

JamminJ

Great Ducat, serious looking full length portait.

Could the coins be bent due to the use of roller dies? I have several early silver coins which have a "potato chip" or "saddle" shape due to these.

-JamminJ

1jester

JJ, I know what you're talking about; I have a few coins that show that characteristic "potatoe chip" type bend. But those types of bending are always (in my experience) incredibly uniform, as if you could tell it just got rolled on that machine. I think the "wavy" look comes from bending gold and then bending it back; what's left is an uneven wave, and it could be in any direction, and there can be multiple bends. Sometimes if the coin is bent nearly in half, and back again, you can see a rough "fold" in the coin. And this is only with gold coins because gold will not snap, but just bend like that.

Is Dennis' coin hammered or milled, and if so, on what type of machine? It looks hammered.

Here's a hammered (I believe, but I could be wrong) gold coin that was definitely bent and whacked back into shape. Usually coins aren't treated to this, but simply bent back into shape. 1700 quarter ducat

Here's a hammered coin that wasn't bent. It has a slightly uneven planchet, but that's not visible in the scans. 1410 Goldgulden

Here's a milled coin, using a screw press. It's never been bent. 1764 double ducat

Here's another milled (screw press) coin that's never been bent. Surfaces are straight and flat and mirror-like. 1735 half ducat

Here's one more ducat that was milled using a screw press (I believe), and it was ever so slightly bent and bent back. The bend isn't visible in the scan, and barely visible in person. 1831 ducat

All these coins have thin planchets (except for the Hungarian double ducat, which is rather thick).

edited to say the Hungarian double ducat is pretty thick. And apropos that, that particular coin seems to be way too heavy, too, which makes me wonder! As a double ducat, it should weigh around 7 grams, but it weighs 8. So that's weird.

lordmarcovan

Great coin.

Jester- I think the problem with the topic you discussed is that there's a fine line between "wavy flan" and "bent".

JamminJ

Thanks for the great reply Jester!

It's tough enough to get accurate photos of coins in two dimensions let alone trying to preceive bends. I'm unfamiliar with gold coins from this era but I'll share some of my observations with the silver coinage from the Hapsburg empire.

1. For coins which look as struck (or very close) the bends are always about the North/South axis.

2. Very small coins with thin panchets, say a 3 kreuzer, may be unsymmetric with one East/West side about flat and the other raised or lowered, and if both sides are bent they are in the same direction.

3. Larger thin coins, like a 15 kreuzer, have more symmetric bends with both East/West sides raised or lowed the same amount.

4. Large and thick coins, like a half thaler, may have asymmetric higher order bends (2nd Y mode for any mechanical engineers out there). These bends are less dramatic and noticeable than the thinner coins, sometime only apprent through the wear pattern.

5. Giant heavy coins, like thalers, never seem to have noticeable bends.

Anyway, these are just my opinions and obsevations about coins I've chosen to add to my collection - your results may vary. Anyone else have something to add to this discussion?

-JamminJ

1jester

Jammin, thanks for your excellent input and observations. I'm assuming that you're referring to roller-die produced coins, right?

I'd very much like to hear from the real professionals and experts out there; I'm by no means in that category. Civitas, what have you observed?

JamminJ

You are correct, roller dies are assumed for my discussion. I'd also love to hear from a pro!

An interesting converational quip from a dealer regarding roller die coins:
Do you know what you call a flat [roller die coin]? Counterfeit!

-JamminJ

coinkat

great looking coin. Thanks for sharing and please post more pictures as time permits.