Boards opinion of SCD?

34GoudeyCollector · December 17, 2003 12:16AM

Haven't seen much discussion of SCD graded cards here and am curious about how everyone feels about SCD in the graded world? It looks like the PRO opinion is already out there!

Vargha · December 17, 2003 12:22AM

Reputable company . . . Good graders . . . Nice holder . . . Strong following among the pre-war crowd . . . most post-war cards in SGC holders bring less money than their PSA counterparts.

duner · December 17, 2003 12:52AM

My only experience with them was with a fake card they holdered. so obviously my opinion is scewed.

Vargha · December 17, 2003 12:56AM

My only experience with them was with a fake card they holdered. so obviously my opinion is scewed.

Skewed or screwed?

duner · December 17, 2003 12:59AM

my bad, skewed

Griffins · December 17, 2003 1:05AM

David-
Are you referring to SGC instead of SCD? I don't see a strong following of SCD grading anywhere outside the Fritsch compound, let alone the pre war crowd.
I rarely see any SCD cards in the sets I collect, so its not really a factor. I have 1, the holder looks nice and I wouldn't hesitate to buy a card I needed in that holder, but they seem little used.

dbj77 · December 17, 2003 1:06AM

Are we talking about SCD or SGC? I'm assuming SCD as in SportsCardDigest. I've bought a couple of cards from them Nice holder with black insert like SGC. The grading was accurate most of the time. I like the way they put subgrades on the back like Beckett does. I got them cheap and will cross most of them over eventually.

34GoudeyCollector · December 17, 2003 1:08AM

Referring to SCD. I don't see a strong following at all with them either, just wondering if there is a clear cut reason for this (as with PRO).

dbj77 · December 17, 2003 1:16AM

When Gradeandtrade was selling on ebay, I picked up some decent rookies of Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey Jr., Sammy Sosa, Bagwell, etc. for like $4 a piece in SCD 9. If I get bored I'll dig some out and scan a few.

qualitycards · December 17, 2003 1:19AM

34GC - SCD Auth grading was talked about at length before you arrived here, especially when they came on the scene w/ those large ads of Larry & Little Jeff Fritsch holding up an Aaron rc, a Mantle '52, Lajoie '33 and so on.
Most agreed here it was a tremendous conflict of interest and we wondered who paid for those large full page ads w/ the Fritschs many in color and in prime spots like the inside 1st page or back page. Then soon after Bob Lemke in his editorial blasted the notion of the PSA set registry, forgetting that PSA was a large advertiser and many set registry participants were subscribers and bought PSA cards via their own advertisers in their magazines. A real bonehead move.
Anyway, its now been 2 years or so, and they've hardly made a dent in the grading game. I personally haven't seen that many cards 1st hand or at shows to render any opinion about competency. I actually thought w/ their publishing empire that they would make waves.
So at best they ae probably the #4 or #5 grader depending on each persons prefrences w/ PSA, SGC, GAI, Beckett also being in the top 4/5. And as always, time will tell if they go up or down the ladder or if they are still grading in the future...jay

RayBShotz · December 17, 2003 1:41AM

34GC - The few SCD cards I have held in my hands appear to be graded 1/2 to a full grade higher than PSA might grade. If I were fishing I'd say "throw that one back".
RayBShotz

Vargha · December 17, 2003 3:12AM

Oops!! I sure misread that post. I was talking about SGC. SCD??? Are they even a blip on the radar?

beefcake210 · December 17, 2003 3:45AM

I didn't know SCD had a grading company. DO they grade told Tuff Stuff mags?

aro13 · December 17, 2003 3:59AM

As I have pointed out on other threads I have been happy with the grading at SCD. I have submitted around 10 cards for crossover and all have crossed - the worst being a 1/2 point drop. I do not hesitate to buy their cards on ebay and I think you can find good deals on cards that they have downgraded because of the centering on the back.

NickM · December 17, 2003 4:09AM

I own 3 SCD cards - a '54 Topps common in 7 that should cross to a PSA 7 (and I'll likely cross it soon), a '60 Lake to Lake Braves Schoendienst in 9 that looked like a candidate for a 9, 8, or 9PD from PSA (but the holder was damaged badly in the mail, and the card may have been too), and a '73 Topps Candy Lid Aaron in 7 that I don't know how PSA would grade, because I don't know how PSA approaches the details of this issue (like the fold).
I have examined a few SCD cards at shows, and generally been in agreement with the final grade, although there was one where I'm confident they mixed up the subgrades on the back - they gave a badly OC but otherwise nice card a 2 for surface and a 7 for centering. I wouldn't submit to them, but I'd buy cards in their holders (although not at equal grade PSA prices).

Nick

shouldabeena10 · December 17, 2003 4:56AM

There were a bunch of SCD 1957 football cards running through the auctions last month. The seller had fairly decent scans and IMO they all looked at least a full grade below what PSA would have given them. (I'd probably say closer to a grade and a half).

In all fairness, I didn't see any in person... so the card may look better up close.... but some of them were supposed to be 8's and you could easily see the soft corners of what looked more like a 7 or 6.

Most of the bidders agreed with me, and didn't bid on them.

Mike

34GoudeyCollector · December 18, 2003 6:41AM

SCD sounds a smidge better than PRO, but defintely not a major player in the graded game. Thanks for all the input!
Ken

Mantlefan · December 18, 2003 11:22AM

They don't seem to be doing so well. Now they will be grading and authenticating memorabilia.

downgoesfrazier · December 18, 2003 2:09PM

34GC,
Curious. What's your obsession with PRO? Everytime you post in reference to SCD (the thread topic) you mention PRO. These two grading companies are light years apart. With all due respect, your conclusion that SCD is a "smidge" better than PRO is unenlightened.
PRO is where altered cards go to die, SCD is just a solid grading option that came too late and represents a conflict of interest for some folks. As I respond to this thread you have made 20 posts to date of which I have read three. In all three you attempt to discredit SCD (with PRO comparisons) in the guise of questioning their community acceptance and standards. Did you suddenly stumble on a stash of '34s entombed in SCD holders? Make it simple, just stick with PSA.

David,
Sadly, not even a blip

TheCARDKid · December 18, 2003 3:07PM

SCD the magazine seems like it is on its last legs. I finally ended my subscription this fall (been a subscriber since 1994). The magazine has not innovated in this digital age. I wonder if it'll be around in 5-10 years.

SCD the grading company has not many any kind of serious dent in the business. They were too late in the game for that. It'd be like an upstart cola company trying to take over Coke or Pepsi.

In my SCD renewal offer in the mail, they offered a "free SCD grading submission" upon renewal. Sorry guys, that won't quite cut it.

I wonder if SCD grading would have even gotten off the ground without Fritsch?

qualitycards · December 18, 2003 3:18PM

<< <i>I wonder if SCD grading would have even gotten off the ground without Fritsch? >>

I've often wondered too, if either Fritsch can get off the ground

Just joking! Its past 2 in the morning, and its not like either Fritsch thinks they are thin, I could stand to lose a few pounds too!

...jay

34GoudeyCollector · December 18, 2003 3:40PM

David (downgoesfrazier),
I don't have an obsession with PRO by any means and if that is what it appeared like, I'm sorry. I have been out of "active collecting" for about 5-6 years and am now getting buried back in it again. Back then, it was primarily just PSA in the graded biz with a few others here and there. Now, there are literally dozens out there grading, but only about 4-6 that are even in the race (1-2 rabbits and 3-4 turtles). As far as I'm concerned, PSA is the way to go, I am just trying to learn why some of these grading companies didn't "make the cut in the market".
Thanks
Ken

downgoesfrazier · December 18, 2003 11:50PM

34GC,
Fair enough. If you're just getting back into it and want to know about the fringe outfits here are some observations that I think most who use them would be inclined to agree with...

Global Authentication- In my opinion, the closest to PSA standards. They seem a little bent on making a point with their strtrictness but the 1/2 point scale saves you from getting whacked a whole grade. I can tell you that Mike Baker is unequaled at spotting an altered card and has an artistic eye. Out of register cards and poor color strikes and other attributes that affect eye-appeal will get noticed there. Frankly, they may not be so busy with bulk submissions that they may be among the most consistent at applying their standards. Since they went to the 1/2 point scale, "sliders" in the MINT range are nearly non-existent. They are EASILY the most innovative and will fight like tigers for your business. If anyone can make a splash in the market that PSA has a stranglehold on--given their relative late arrival--it would be GAI. There has been talk of back-room deals and shady business practices from these guys but I have not seen anything proven. This folk-tale is kind of like the girl who supposedly puts out every weekend in High School until YOU take her out and realize it was all a lot of snow-balled hooey. Very solid option if someone's "shopping" third-party authentication for everything from autographs, sportscards to diamonds and women's handbags.

SGC- Quality all the way. Very strict and in my opinion, the strictest. They holder their share of bummers just like everybody else (I've seen plenty) but they are proffessional with no apparent conflicts of interest--real OR imagined. Again, there is talk of how lenient SGC is on centering...hooey. I've seen enough OC cards in unqualified PSA holders to know that everybody forgives this aspect from time to time. I have found them to be death on tilts--even 2-3% tilts get held back. The half-point scale makes that "Mint 96" pretty hard to come by and their cards generally exhibit great eye appeal as poor focus and print debris seem to offend here as well. One thing I will tell you is that "snow" or light PD that PSA seems to always catch slips through the SGC cracks pretty often. If I had a drop-dead MINT card with light snow, I'd submit to SGC. Also, "extra stock" on a corner will kill you with some companies...not so with SGC. I like that. The holder is arguably the most attractive around as well. Overall this company's grading and customer service takes a back seat to no-one. Quality.

PSA- You know the story here. The biggest and trying to stay that way. Image quality rarely gets rewarded or deducted. They are the best at assessing your actual card-stock. Surface wrinkles, stains, bubbles almost always get caught. They are death on "snow" but seem to overlook obnoxious roller debris, fish-eyes and registration problems. Corners, corners, corners. I still believe that across the board PSA's the toughest on corners. They're all tough, but PSA seems obsessed here--and a lot of collector's love this aspect. This is probably where PSA's hobby-wide perception of "toghness" comes from. A host of collector-friendly services and their registry keep their market prices generally strong. Recently some strongly suspected sheet-cut cards are making their way into PSA holders--more than in the past--a little scary, but that is bound to happen from time to time with any grading company. The holder is plain, but I like it's simplicity. They used to be easy to reach with legitimate concerns or questions, but recently have become increasingly difficult--even to the most benign of collectors. Not much else to say as everybody pretty much knows what they're getting here. The big gorilla with a liquid market and pretty solid grading to boot.

Beckett: BVG, BGS- While BVG is more forgiving of inherent flaws in the production process of pre-1980 sportscards they remain very strict...almost random. I could never get a feel for their standards. They seem to grade as though a different guy grades every card.
I'm not sure THEY know what's going on. The amount of sheet-cut cards they holder from the 70's is staggering. Recently, they have tried to correct this, but if the expertise isn't there I'm not sure how they expect this correction to take place. They grade egdes. In my opinion that is absurd. The cards that are not altered seem to cross over exceptionally well so I guess that's the hang-up. Every collector on this board that sees a BVG card in a 9.5 grade goes "I'd bid, but what if it's trimmed?". That's enough to keep most of us away. I especially like the arbitrary "surface" grades of 8.5 to hold back a MINT card. I don't consider them an option for pre 1980 cards and don't think I ever will.

PGS- I only list them because I recently got to see a huge sampling of their graded cards and was shocked. They were OK! Probably a grade higher in a few spots, but I recently crossed a PGS 9 Rose to a PSA 9 Rose! An awfully limited sampling of course and their expertise at the finer points of judgement would have to be in question until a larger body of work gained acceptance, but I was really surprised by the quality of the 6-7 hundred card lot I was looking at. I just wanted to post about the PGS stuff I'd seen...not a realistic option at this point.

Anything else out there is beyond "fringe" in my mind. If you like PSA just stick with them. If you don't GAI and SGC seem like realistic options.

dgf

34GoudeyCollector · December 19, 2003 12:20AM

Awesome! Thanks for the insight into the different companies!
Ken

NickM · December 19, 2003 12:29AM

dgf - I think you are too kind on SGC and centering. In my experience, SGC grades far more on eye appeal than on techinical compliance with grading standards on vintage material ('50s and earlier). Areas such as back damage on a blank-backed tobacco or candy card, a miscut back that doesn't affect eye appeal (e.g., side to side on '55 Bowman baseball), or back staining get ignored or minimally downgraded by SGC. Sometimes I wonder if they actually look at the backs.

Nick

RedHeart54 · December 19, 2003 12:35AM

SCD tried to have a nitch in grading Star basketball "claiming" they could tell the real ones from the fakes. Funny that there are no other card experts but SCD graders who can tell the reals from the fakes.

downgoesfrazier · December 19, 2003 12:49AM

NickM,
You would know more than I on SGC graded pre-1950. I have never owned or submitted a pre-1950 card to them. I will say that I've had PSA miss some doozies on the reverse as well. I was speaking generally.

dgf

aconte · December 19, 2003 12:57AM

NickM,

I think Psa ignores the backs of red man cards when they hand out final grades. Seen a number
with creases in Psa 7 + 8 holders. Last I checked they were from the 50's. Never seen any
in Sgc holders. And I've owned my share of both and know those cards well. I remember
a 53 Pafkko and Joe Black that had brutal stains on the back. Both were in Psa 8 holders.

aconte

downgoesfrazier · December 19, 2003 2:22AM

Tony,
Please shoot me an email. I have a couple of ideas I want to run by you and need help with something else. Thanks!

dgf

NickM · December 19, 2003 2:31AM

aconte - you may be right. As to the creases (but not the stains), it is possible that it happened post-grading due to careless handling at PSA. I would hope that PSA would do the right thing, and buy these back off the market if they are made aware of them. That is still one sizable advantage PSA has over other grading companies.

dgf - buy vintage. It's fun.

Nick

downgoesfrazier · December 19, 2003 2:43AM

Nick M,
I have assembled '52 low and mid series in mid to high-grade as well as complete sets of 53's and 57's in my collecting days as well as large runs of '33 Goudey and '34-5 Diamond Stars... I've also been known to peddle a large Red Man collection. I have also assembled a complete topps run of Willie Mays cards in high grade. I just got tired of collecting players I never saw play. When I started having kids of my own I turned my interest to my own childhood. I still love a crisp, centered truly vintage card, but on my budget with the demands I have for perfection it just doesn't pencil. Good luck in your vintage pursuits, however.

dgf

NickM · December 19, 2003 2:56AM

dgf - I was teasing you. My true pursuit is in the area of oddball vintage material, where condition is often secondary to finding the card at all. I do understand you about something lacking in excitement on trying to complete sets of players you never saw play. Unfortunately for me, that includes most of the '77 set (I started following baseball in 1982).

Nick

dude · December 19, 2003 3:49AM

34GoudeyCollector -- A lot of opinions have been tossed around in this thread. Remember that – they are just opinions. Some of the opinions are outright laughable, particularly some statements about one company, but that's a different topic for a different time.

As you read this thread, you can see where it escalates into “I once saw one card from your grading company of choice that had this problem….blah blah blah”. Sadly, some people have made a cottage industry out this by pretending to be hobby watchdogs when in reality they are nothing but rabid, mouth-foaming myopic mutts focusing their vengeful scorn on just one particular company but at the same time seem to be completely blind (or in denial) to their own grading company’s shortcomings.

The reality is that all companies have and will make mistakes. The people who believe their grading company of choice is infallible are in deep need of some serious psychological treatment. What you really have to be concerned about is how the grading companies honor their mistakes. Only two companies have a full buy back policy: PSA and GAI. That’s a fact and not an opinion. Today’s grading market is efficient and with their wallets, people vote for what they believe are the best companies. If you go on eBay and do a search of whose product is in the highest demand, you’ll find that once again, these two companies are PSA and GAI. Finally, you will see that some companies have authorized dealers whom are carefully screened for professional conduct and high ethical business practices while other companies don’t. Again the only two companies that I’m aware that have this program are PSA and GAI.

My advice to you is to deal with PSA and GAI. They are your best choices.

aconte · December 19, 2003 4:01AM

dgf,

email sent.

dude,

Your post is not accurate. You should take your own advice of your second paragraph.
While your comments are crystal clear, so are your motivations. I won't argue the fine
points with you or reply further here on these boards. Your 'between-the-line" opinion that Sgc
is not a good grading company is an incorrect statement to make to 34GC. Regardless,
34GC I hope you enjoy the hobby whatever you decide to collect and in whatever holder
down the roads.

It's clear that not everyone is having fun!

aconte

dude · December 19, 2003 4:33AM

Aconte --

SGC is good, but the other two are better for the factual reasons given. Why settle for second best? As for the second paragraph, I don't see where it applies to me. I don't spend all waking hours looking at every card I can find of a particular company on the web and publicly bash any suspect examples.

You have no problem directly bashing PSA in an earlier message and I didn't even mention SGC and you're ticked at me? If you want SGC to be in the same league as PSA and GAI then you should lobby their management for a "full buy back policy" on all of their cards - especially their early ones and have them start an authorized dealer program where their biggest sellers show some professionalism. I could give you a laundry list of other things they could do to improve their business, but to what do I owe them that?

srs1a · December 19, 2003 4:41AM

I think that dgf hit the nail on the head -- there are 3 quality outfits in the grading business.

No one offers a "no questions asked" refund policy and it is a silly suggestion...I don't agree with this grade, so I want a refund....sure.

dude · December 19, 2003 4:50AM

sra1a -- You are correct. I meant "full buy back policy" or basically they stand behind every card they've ever graded and I've edited that message accordingly.

Davino · December 21, 2003 2:26PM

I believe that SGC is a tougher grader than PSA. To get "98 Gem Mint 10" from them, the card must be absolutely perfect. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna start a topic with scans of some cards that I submitted to them that I thought came back graded very low:
Link To Undergraded? SGC Cards

downgoesfrazier · December 21, 2003 11:54PM

Davino,
Not true. Great IDEA, but not true. 98's are not perfect, nor are they always evan MINT. I do agree they give less 10's away, but I've handled a couple of 98's that were a bit soft or out of register, etc. The "10" is the most subjective grade there is. The only person(s) that can accurately assess a GEM MINT card would be an elite set builder of THAT particular issue. Only that person would have a real feel for what each card is capable of and what is truly unique and fantastic.

dgf

Davino · December 22, 2003 5:00AM

Thanks for the input. I'm just going by my experience and do agree that a '10" is the most subjective of grades. In reality, I've seen 10's from different companies that are slightly "off", but MUCH less so with SGC....

Boards opinion of SCD?

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