New York Knicks All Time Team Set Registry

ydsotter

Hey Fellas... I am a Knicks enthusiast. I wanted to submit an "all time" knicks team to the set registry... there is currently a Lakers and Celtics...
If anyone else is interested, your input would be greatly appreciated.
I am particularly weak with 1948-1961 issues.

In addition to the star rookie cards... I wanted this set to encompass other significant players and fan favorites... or unique issues. I wanted this to begin as early as possible and stretch to about 1986-1988 fleer. I will submit this to BJ/Gail in a few days... I put a * beside issues that I am not 100% on submitting...

Here's my initial take:
1948 Bowman Red Holtzman
1948 Bowman Braun
1957 Topps Dick McGwire
1961 Richie Guerin
1969 Topps Frazier
1969 Topps Monroe
1969 Topps Bradley
1969 Topps Debusschere
1969 Topps Reed
1969 Topps Lucas
1969 Topps Cazzie Russell
1969 Topps Dick Barnett
1969 Topps Dave Stallworth*
1970 Topps Mike Riordan
1970 Topps Knicks Win!
1972 Topps Phil Jackson
1972 Dean Meminger
1973 John Gianelli*
1973 Topps Knicks Win!
1973 Topps Henry Bibby
1975 Topps Harthorn Wingo (Only Card produced)
1976 Topps Spencer Haywood (1st Knicks card)*
1977 Topps Bob McAdoo*
1978 Topps Ray Williams
1978 Topps Bernard King
1980 Topps Michael Ray Richardson rookie (Russell/Hill and or Tyler/Hill variation)
1980 Topps Bill Cartwright rookie
1981 Topps Sly Williams East*
1986 Fleer Patrick Ewing
1988 Fleer Mark Jackson*

maybe a john starks or charles oakly issue? should I include the 1970 pat riley rc? a rick pitino card? don nelson? other coaches?

Thanks,
Geoff

dbj77

Do the cards have to showcase them in a Knicks uniform? If not, are you doing only major issue cards?

goodriddance189

Oakley should be included for sure

ydsotter

Yeah, Oakley is important to me too...

It's an interesting question whether they should have a knicks uniform on or not....

as a knicks fan/collector... a player's rookie card is typically the most desireable... whether they are in a knicks uniform or not.

I do not think that they have to be showcased in a knicks uniform...
Monroe and Lucas were franchise players... and their real rookie cards seem to be appropriate... They are identified primarily as New York Knicks...

While guys like Haywood and McAdoo were hof caliber players that spent a couple seasons with the knicks... though people seem to think of the Sonics with Haywood or the Braves/Lakers with McAdoo.

While a guy like Bibby didn't play long with the Knicks, he was a contributor on their second championship.

When I first proposed this idea to joe orlando via BJ a year or so ago... I wanted it set up so that people could plug in any issue, any year of a player... they stood pretty firmly on the ground that it had to be their rookie card/best card... so my thinking has been geared that way...

pc

well you got wingo but howza bout
banister or jaohnny mast?
you could include knix historical 1st round
draft pix too.

aro13

That list is pretty long especially compared to the Lakers and Celtics team sets. The Celtics set contains 18 players - 14 of whom are in the Hall of Fame. The Lakers team set has 9 players - probably all 9 will be in the Hall of Fame one day. If you were to limit the Knicks list to Hall of Famers and Major contributors it would probably be:
Holtzman
McGwire
Frazier
Monroe
Lucas
Reed
Debusschere
King
Ewing

I would probably not include anybody else - The Celtic list does not include Bill Walton and the Laker list does not include Bob McAdoo or Mychal Thompson players that were instrumental in one season championships. The Laker list does not even include Byron Scott who was a significant player.

Davemri

I concur with Albie 100%

Dhjacks

How about the 1975 Knicks Team card #215. It's the only team card I'm aware of throughout that era.

Also, I was surprised that no one has taken the initiative to create a Jerry West payer set. I'll try to find the time.

dbj77

True rookie of Riley is his 1968 Jack in the Box card, but I assume they mean "major companies" and not regional/less popular sets.

I also agree Oakley seems like he should be there.


dhjacks,the west set has been asked for already and is on the waiting list.

ydsotter

I would like to see a more comprehensive list than 9-12 guys.
or just hall of famers. Collecting the Knicks is my collecting passion... Maybe a knicks fan or someone who would also enjoy building a more comprehensive team set would agree...

I wouldn't really care about a knicks collection that would leave off guys like Michael Ray, King, Barnett, riordian, ray williams, bill cartwright etc etc...

ydsotter

Thanks... I forgot about the 1975 team card... that is an awesome card... and the only team card that I am aware of also.
Thanks for adding a few more names I forgot...

Davalillo

I also agree with albie and davemri,

Some of the guys on the prior list are ridiculous to include.

Jim

ydsotter

Jim , I spent a lot of time and thought creating that list...
It resembeles what I am passionate about collecting.
What exactly is your problem with a larger comprehensive checklist? What exactly is ridiculous about creating "team collections" that include many players that wore the uniform that are important to the people who followed that team?
I think a small, 8-12 player checklist is very vanilla and wimpy.

NickM

yds - perhaps it is because there are a lot of colelctors of that team who would NOT regard a number of those players as important.
Harthorn Wingo? Dean Meminger? Dave Stallworth?
What makes them so important to Knicks fans?
If they are in, the Lakers team set should include Kermit Washington -after all, he was a Laker when he became famous for rearranging Rudy Tomjanovich's face.

Nick

Davalillo

YDSotter,

I am under the understanding that these team sets represent the best of that particular team--certain of the players were marginal nba players at best.
Just doesn't seem to be any theme to the collection other than some great knicks and some very marginal ones.

Jim

ydsotter

Why does the celtics and lakers team have to have anything to do with the knicks teams?
These team sets are created by collectors and submitted to gail/bj... psa doesn't make them up... we do...
the registry is supposed to be a reflection of our interests... majority interests.
Obviously, the people collecting the Lakers and Celtics teams don't really care about having bill walton in a celtics uniform.... and laker fans don't care enough about having McAdoo in a lakers uniform in the key card sets.


I seriously doubt that there are many others that are interested... or they would have requested the set already... or perhaps, mentioned it on this post...
If the "majority" of people who wanted to build a knicks collection wanted a wimpy little list then I'd go along with it.

Just because a guy isn't in the hall of fame or didn't compile impressive stats doesn't mean that he's not important to fans...
Kurt Rambis and A.C. Green are two of my favorite Lakers.

at any rate, that's why I posted this... fortunately, there has been some interest generated by the post... unfortunately, no one with a vested interest or love for the knicks...

ydsotter

well, I'm done...
I am not trying to make a sales pitch.
or argue with the good people that I usually agree with.

I will submit the set the way I would want to see it in a week or so.
Psa can do what they want.
In the meantime... if anyone out there is actually interested in a knicks key card/team set...
email me or add to this... I'll let psa know what the majority of people who want to build a knicks set want.

Davemri

I think the problem with the longer list is that there will be fewer participants than if the list were shorter. With the longer list, you would probably be the only person wanting to build the set. I would not register this set if it required that many unimportant cards (unimportant to me at least). Anyway, I hope you understand our feelings. I guess just let psa decide.

My opinion only,
dave

Dhjacks

In terms of size, you have the 'Decade of the Dodgers' set of 357 cards.
A reasonably comparable 'arbitrary' set would be the 'All-Time Steelers ' set of 18 cards.

Perhaps there is hope for you.

NickM

Dhjacks - I believe the Decade of Dodgers is a comprehensive list of all Topps and Bowman Dodgers cards from that decade. That's not very similar to an "All-Time Great" set.

On created sets with significant subjectivity on who is included, PSA should err on the site of caution before listing players. Otherwise, it runs the risk of one collector fashioning the set to his taste so as to make the category uninteresting to most others.

Nick

Skycap

This is a bogus set -- a set basically consisting of what one individual wants it to be. I believe such subjective sets should originate from a bonafide source, such as the NBA's official Top 50 Players of All-Time selected a few years ago. As for the Knicks, if for example the New York Times picked an all-time Knicks team (maybe they have), that would have some legitimacy.

How can an all-time team set have 30-some cards when there are only 5 starters on a team and 7 or so reserves, plus a coach? At least the Celtics and Lakers sets are reasonable in size, but this is ridiculous!

The best title for this set is "Geoff Ott's All-Time New York Knicks Team." It has no place in the Registry. I hope Joe Orlando reads this.

Skycap

curmudgeon

My two cents

PSA should (or certainly could) allow you to list whatever you want. SGC allows a registry of "What I collect", although for Geoff's purposes, it might not fit exactly because I believe it has cut-offs of 1940-1980 and 1981 onward. This allows collectors to show off what's important to them, and most provide scans. I find this very interesting for cards that are otherwise "unconventional" or not easily placed in a universally identifiable set- the scans are great to look at.

I agree that one person should not be allowed to unilaterally determine what comprises an all-time team set without some reasonable acknowledgement by the sports and collecting community that its contents are reflective of the subject matter. Harthorn Wingo may have been someone's personal fave, but to most, he's the answer to some trivia question or similar minutiae. Still, I would like to see a scan of his card, and I think it's cool if someone truly collects his stuff and has fond memories of the player or that year's team.

People can be way too competitive on the registry. Some people can have fun with it, eg. the Pepe Frias set, but since many set their sights on being number 1, they do not want to chase cards they find unworthy. Also, there will always be some arbitrariness to what cards should be included--why no Exhibits for Harmon Killebrew but yes for Al Kaline? I have a mint 1973 Topps Killebrew comic. Why isn't that part of the master set? If it's because PSA doesn't now grade that issue but later chooses to do so, should the parameters of the set be expanded?

Bottom line, I believe PSA should be as accommodating as reasonably possible to allow collectors to show off their PSa graded cards, and a "What I collect" approach seems reasonable to me.

Todd