1900 O/CC and where do you get detailed VAM information?
RobJoyce1921dVAMguy
Posts: 942 ✭✭
Gilbert asked me the following a long time ago... I was very slow in responding, but here goes!
"On your website (linked from PCGS forum) I was looking at subject varieties, and particularly the 7/7A & 10 reverse(s). I notice that some of the diags you point out may or may not be the same as Van Allen in the VAM book. Yours appear to be more detailed in a sense, and definitely more illustrative. My question(s) is/are: what is a collector to do when/if they discover a discrepancy between the two? And, regarding VAM 10 - can you ascertain if the III2 5 obv (according to VAM) also has doubling inside the upper loop(s) of the 9 and first 0? The one I have (attributed w/your images) appears to have all the diags you point out, and the doubling I mention. Also, "ONE DOLLAR" also appears to be doubled at the bottom. This isn't mentioned in either of the 3 sharing this reverse. Thanks
Gilbert "
Gilbert is referencing my page at:
http://www.rjrc.com/vams/1900_occ.htm
It was created because I was having trouble attributing a O/CC coin using only Leroy Van Allen's known affectionately as "big vam book", The Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan & Peace Dollars, By Leroy C. Van Allen & A. George Mallis (Worldwide Ventures, Inc. 3107 Edgewater Dr., Orlando, FL 32804, Fourth Edition 1997)
The purpose of my web site is to keep a kind of public notes on topics that confused me. I figure if I had trouble attributing a coin other will to. I do best when there are great big pictures and a huge indicator to "look here dummy!" so I try to put images like that on the web. Often references will contain an image of the most important die feature, but adding just one more "smoking gun" indication of the coin variety can make attribution easy. I also find pictures easier to start with than Leroy's elegant and concise notation such as "III2 5 obv" referenced above. While those seeped in VAM research can work quickly with this shorthand, I and others operate visually and good pictures with detailed information on the pick-up-point is tremendously useful.
You will also find I use die cracks extensively in my research when available. These work out to be unique finger prints to the die that struck a coin. Two different coins may share the same doubling from a master hub but actually be struck from different dies. By examining die cracks (if they exist) between the coins, you can determine with great certainty if the coins came from the same die. Many times you can't tell but if the die cracks are different (really different, not just different stages), they definitely are different dies. Die cracks are often a secondary feature I reference to quickly help a VAMer attribute the coin. Leroy often doesn't have the space to photograph / describe all the die cracks but if I'm having trouble between two dies, I'll definitely publish any crack information to help zero in on the VAM identification quickly.
My references on the web page are not official, they are my interpretation of the work done by Van Allen, Mallis and others. I try very hard for accuracy and because they are public (and used), I've had revisions, improvements and corrections over time. If you find something wrong, or that you are not sure you agree with, please ask me with it. I do like to work with others researching VAM questions.
Finally on to your detailed question: 1900 O/CC VAM 10 die it have doubling inside the upper loop(s) of the 9 and first 0? Yes, my coin has the doubling you reference and even a little doubling in the last 0 of the date as well. VAM-10 is believed to share the same reverse die as VAM-7 and VAM-7A. I See doubling on the "ONE DOLLAR" in my VAM-10 as you referenced. MY VAM-7A is too worn to see the doubling. I don't have VAM-7 to check. I asked a friend, Lewis R., to examine his coins and he replied:
"I am looking at the 7, 7A, and 10. I looked with 3X, 9X, and 25X. The VAM 10 certainly has doubling on the lower part of the N, E, and D; the O of ONE has a lesser doubling than the N, E, and O. I cannot really see any doubling on the other letters of ONE DOLLAR. Sometimes I think the A, and R have some doubling. The 7A has the doubling on the lower part of the N, E, and D; just like the VAM-10. Other letters the same. The 7 as far as I can see has no doubling, the D looks like it may have a very minor amount of doubling.
All three, the 7, 7A, and 10 have the same marks to the left of the wreath bow and inside the wreath bow. The VAM-10 has reverse die clash marks the 7 and 7A do not."
I'm satisfied that the reverse dies are indeed the same on VAM-7, 7A and 10 based on previous looks at coins loaned to me but I did miss the doubling you referenced.
Hope this helps answer some of your questions.
Rob
"On your website (linked from PCGS forum) I was looking at subject varieties, and particularly the 7/7A & 10 reverse(s). I notice that some of the diags you point out may or may not be the same as Van Allen in the VAM book. Yours appear to be more detailed in a sense, and definitely more illustrative. My question(s) is/are: what is a collector to do when/if they discover a discrepancy between the two? And, regarding VAM 10 - can you ascertain if the III2 5 obv (according to VAM) also has doubling inside the upper loop(s) of the 9 and first 0? The one I have (attributed w/your images) appears to have all the diags you point out, and the doubling I mention. Also, "ONE DOLLAR" also appears to be doubled at the bottom. This isn't mentioned in either of the 3 sharing this reverse. Thanks
Gilbert "
Gilbert is referencing my page at:
http://www.rjrc.com/vams/1900_occ.htm
It was created because I was having trouble attributing a O/CC coin using only Leroy Van Allen's known affectionately as "big vam book", The Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan & Peace Dollars, By Leroy C. Van Allen & A. George Mallis (Worldwide Ventures, Inc. 3107 Edgewater Dr., Orlando, FL 32804, Fourth Edition 1997)
The purpose of my web site is to keep a kind of public notes on topics that confused me. I figure if I had trouble attributing a coin other will to. I do best when there are great big pictures and a huge indicator to "look here dummy!" so I try to put images like that on the web. Often references will contain an image of the most important die feature, but adding just one more "smoking gun" indication of the coin variety can make attribution easy. I also find pictures easier to start with than Leroy's elegant and concise notation such as "III2 5 obv" referenced above. While those seeped in VAM research can work quickly with this shorthand, I and others operate visually and good pictures with detailed information on the pick-up-point is tremendously useful.
You will also find I use die cracks extensively in my research when available. These work out to be unique finger prints to the die that struck a coin. Two different coins may share the same doubling from a master hub but actually be struck from different dies. By examining die cracks (if they exist) between the coins, you can determine with great certainty if the coins came from the same die. Many times you can't tell but if the die cracks are different (really different, not just different stages), they definitely are different dies. Die cracks are often a secondary feature I reference to quickly help a VAMer attribute the coin. Leroy often doesn't have the space to photograph / describe all the die cracks but if I'm having trouble between two dies, I'll definitely publish any crack information to help zero in on the VAM identification quickly.
My references on the web page are not official, they are my interpretation of the work done by Van Allen, Mallis and others. I try very hard for accuracy and because they are public (and used), I've had revisions, improvements and corrections over time. If you find something wrong, or that you are not sure you agree with, please ask me with it. I do like to work with others researching VAM questions.
Finally on to your detailed question: 1900 O/CC VAM 10 die it have doubling inside the upper loop(s) of the 9 and first 0? Yes, my coin has the doubling you reference and even a little doubling in the last 0 of the date as well. VAM-10 is believed to share the same reverse die as VAM-7 and VAM-7A. I See doubling on the "ONE DOLLAR" in my VAM-10 as you referenced. MY VAM-7A is too worn to see the doubling. I don't have VAM-7 to check. I asked a friend, Lewis R., to examine his coins and he replied:
"I am looking at the 7, 7A, and 10. I looked with 3X, 9X, and 25X. The VAM 10 certainly has doubling on the lower part of the N, E, and D; the O of ONE has a lesser doubling than the N, E, and O. I cannot really see any doubling on the other letters of ONE DOLLAR. Sometimes I think the A, and R have some doubling. The 7A has the doubling on the lower part of the N, E, and D; just like the VAM-10. Other letters the same. The 7 as far as I can see has no doubling, the D looks like it may have a very minor amount of doubling.
All three, the 7, 7A, and 10 have the same marks to the left of the wreath bow and inside the wreath bow. The VAM-10 has reverse die clash marks the 7 and 7A do not."
I'm satisfied that the reverse dies are indeed the same on VAM-7, 7A and 10 based on previous looks at coins loaned to me but I did miss the doubling you referenced.
Hope this helps answer some of your questions.
Rob
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Comments
Looks like you are as impassioned as I am, if not more. I should put your website back into my "favorites" folder, as I totally agree that your macro images and descriptions ARE more detailed and user friendly than the VAM Book. Heck maybe we can look forward to you and Leroy updating and publishing a fifth edition.
Have you heard that Mike Fey is supposedly updated the Top 100 Morgan Dollar Varieties: The VAM Keys?
Is this true? What's new? The vamsandmore.com website claims a VAM-38 as an O/S coin plus the VAM-30 is added as an 1880/79-P Overdate coin. Anything else?
Top100 per referenced website
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I believe it was to update rarity factors, prices, population and a couple of pen and ink changes (pg 24, 33, 43 et al.). I may have misinterpreted what Mike said he was going to do; I need to go through a couple back issues of the Top 100 Insights to see if I can find where I believe he stated his intentions to update The VAM Keys.
http://www.rjrc.com/vams/1900_occ_vam7a.htm
It was undiscovered at the time of the book but is now considered a top 100 coin.
Another example of this first revision reason of a vam fitting into a group of coins described is the 1899-O Micro Os with new discoveries of VAM-31 and 32 since the book. These are REALLY hard to attribute:
http://www.rjrc.com/vams/1899 micro o.htm
Additionally, coins sometimes require relisting when one VAM in the book is found to actually be produced with 2 dies. There are some new Top 100 varieties as new varieties that fit within the feature described in the book. One example is the 1885 S/S top 100 listed VAM-6 with a strong S/S. It was discovered that the S/S reverse has 2 obverse dies mated with it. VAM-6 which is a "normal" obverse and VAM-9 which has remnants of the top of a date mispunched into the denticle area:
http://www.rjrc.com/vams/1885_s_vam_6_9.htm
Another example of this second relisting reason is the 1900-P Double Die Reverse Vam-11 is listed with the strongly doubled arrows. VAM-24 was found after the book with the VAM-11 reverse and a different obverse with quintupled obverse stars.
Finally, Updates are needed when Leroy reclassifies a VAM number. For example, VAM- 1B in the book, "Line through M", a gouge on the designer's initials, was found to have unique features features not on a VAM-1 die and was relabeled VAM-21.
In addition to description updates, the pricing is old. some coins are VERY undervalued such as the 1888-O VAM-1B Scarface, the 1896-O and 1900-O Micro Os, etc.
I don't think there is a publication date set but work continues as I understand it.
In other huge news for the VAM community, Q. David Bowers is publishing a new book "Morgan Dollars- A complete history and price guide". Published by Whitman and authored by Bowers it should be big. What makes this important to VAM'ers is that 90% of the top 100 varieties will be included.
Finally, one of the major coin magazines is publishing top 100 pricing information. I believe it is COINAge, but I've not gone to get a copy. That one publication alone should bring more folks to the VAM hunt!
Rob
http://www.vamworld.com
and
http://www.rjrc.com
Rob
http://www.vamworld.com
and
http://www.rjrc.com
<< <i>I believe it is COINAge, but I've not gone to get a copy. >>
Yes, they are in the January 2004 issue. Reason enough for me to renew!
<< <i>Have you heard that Mike Fey is supposedly updated the Top 100 Morgan Dollar Varieties: The VAM Keys?
Is this true? What's new? The vamsandmore.com website claims a VAM-38 as an O/S coin plus the VAM-30 is added as an 1880/79-P Overdate coin. Anything else?
Top100 per referenced website >>
This is a coincidence, but I emailed Logan a couple of days ago about the 1882o VAM38, and it's been cleared up that VAM38 supposedly shares the same obverse die as VAM4 (listed as such, but neither Logan nor I have seen what a VAM38 looks like). 1882-o VAM38 does not have an O/S reverse, and it is not a top100 coin. It has been subsequently corrected on the web page referenced above.