Is their anyway to get rid of Ebay crooks like this?:

Davino

t2inc:

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=t2inc&sort=3&rows=25&since=-1&rd=1

This guy is selling PRO graded cards through private auctions.

coachh

Link

I did not know PRO had a grade of 6.5

ChrisKK

is that 1956 Mantle the trimmed card that was discussed in another thread ?????

where is that thread????? Putty where are you?

how many of those cards do you think are trimmed and will anger buyers when they try to convert them to PSA??

Chriskk

cardfan07

Even when keeping feedback private, the feedback counters (neutral, bad) keep counting right? This means he'd get positives for the good transaction initially. But if someone were to cross this over and get the "evid trim" label, and follow up on feedback, we'll never get to see.
I've got a card that i purchased from t2inc many months ago (before joining the board). Luckily, it wasn't a very expensive one...I'm planning on sending to PSA. I cracked the card out and measured it and compared to another card from that year. I'm just about certain that it's been trimmed. It's close, but it won't grade.

Follow-up question...is EVERYTHING graded by PRO trimmed...or is it just sellers like this that use lax grading to pass altered cards? That's more hypothetical than anything. PRO in many collectors eyes is so tainted that it really doesn't matter what the answer is.

40ozman

Pro 6.5???? Is it torn in half, and stapled back together?

Putty

Yes this is the seller and the card, I returned the card for a full refund after verifying that the card had indeed been trimmed.

Southsider

I took a loss on a cheap $10 card from another seller who sells "GEM" graded cards that I sent to PSA, knowing very well that it was probably trimmed. When I got my submission results, I posted a negative to the buyer's feedback with the PSA cert no. showing that the card was indeed trimmed. I guess sellers can get around that now by making their entire feedback private. That's a shame and disservice to eBay. It takes away the only policing tool available to prevent people from being ripped off.

interchanges

This whole thing comes up about every three weeks or so.

As much as I agree with you about him being a sheister, he's not doing anything wrong ebay wise. He's selling PRO graded cards.
He's not taking people's money and then not shipping anything, he's not false advertising. If it's a 1965 Mantle graded 9 by PRO, that's what he's advertising.

It would be better to channel our hostility towards PRO. They created the environment. If it wasn't this guy, it would be another.
I hate the fact that ebay allows sellers to use private feedback. What positive purpose does that serve?
Just one more tool for snake oil to hide behind.

GoSoxBoSox

Can't we start a thread with names of eBay id names to stay away from? We can add to it as time goes on.

NickM

GOSox - we can, but we run the risk of people like usa!usa! getting user names here and posting fictitious information about sellers. We also have issues were people dislike dealers for customer service, shipping fees, etc. where other collectors have very different opinions (witness the discussion on cardmrchnt@aol.com, among others, on a recent thread).

Nick

ChrisKK

Interchanges you are absolutly correct.

but what is the best way??? educate the buyers, stear clear of the sellers... both?


Chriskk

Southsider

Ebay passes the blame to the sellers.
The sellers pass the blame to PRO.

Where does it stop? Especially when Ebay allows sellers to make auctions private and even entire feedback private. How is this anything but a sheild for scam artists? Ebay condones and encourages this behavior.

I hope the day comes when Ebay is forced to take some accountability for their complicity in these scams.

Putty

I agree with Chris, educate the buyers and the circle stops, I just wish I knew how..

Virtualizard

Why would anyone bid on an auction from a seller that has private feedback? That has to be the biggest red flag in determining whether or not to place a bid. Hopefully PRO will someday be just a bad memory.

JEB.

shouldabeena10

I don't know if this will fall on deaf ears or not... but I guess it's worth a shot. If anyone has a better idea please post it, but here's the way I see it.... PRO is one of the biggest problems in the hobby. They have completely turned a blind eye towards trimmed, fake, and doctored cards. The worst case scenario is that they are involved in fraud and counterfeiting..... the base case scenario is that they are completely unqualified to be a grading company ... and maybe are guilty of a little false advertising or something along those lines. (see their website info for their mission statement and grading policy). Pro Sports Grading Inc. ¥ phone: 813-289-7626 ¥ 4048 W. Kennedy #623 ¥ Tampa, FL 33609-2777

pro grading services

Either way, if we all do nothing... nothing will happen.... except that everyday they'll pump more junk cards into the hobby. Unfortunately, I don't think the "good guys" can catch all of the bad cards that are being submitted to them, so I'm pretty certain this is effecting everyone that collects.... even if you've never owned a PRO holder before.

Maybe if we all file a tip on the crime hot line someone will eventually look into it and we can turn up the heat a little. It certainly can't hurt to try.

crime tip line

How about the Attorney General's office in Florida where PRO is located

Attorney General FL

How about all of the journalists on the boards... I would think that this could make a fairly interesting investigative report for their papers / media.

How about maybe contacting 60 Minutes or one of those shows... I realize that many people will dismiss this as a trivial problem .... but, we are talking about a fairly large money maker compared to some of the silly things I've seen reported on these shows before.

Here's the info for 60 Minutes: phone: 212-975-3247 ¥ Address: 524 West 57th Street ¥ New York, NY 10019

Here's a link to e-mail the program 20/20

e-mail for 20/20


Also, isn't there a high ranking public official that surfs these boards and collects cards? I'm pretty sure I saw a thread about somebody running for a state office somewhere. If that person(s) could make a few calls it would probably help.

As I mentioned before... if anyone has a better resource or better info please post it.... I'd just like to see someone get the ball rolling. Also, if a couple of the lawyers could post the appropriate wording (legal terms) that should be used in the complaints it would certainly help.

These boards are filled with thousands of collectors, from all walks of life... and I'm certain that if everyone took 5 minutes to file a few complaints .... we could help solve the problem before too much damage is done.

It couldn't hurt to try.... right?

Mike

mikeschmidt

PRO, I believe has never claimed to grade only authentic, unaltered, untrimmed cards. That buyers ASSUME that to be the case without doing relevant research is tragic.

If they are involved in counterfeiting, that is bad.

However -- if they are arbitrarily assigning grades to cards that are based upon their own standards -- that is perfectly okay. (not that I don't despise them for it, because I do). In many other collectible fields, it is common for restoration or improvement to be done. As long as PRO is not fraudulently trying to pass off their cards as something they are not -- you have a bunch of stupid buyers purchasing from a bunch of sleazy sellers.

thecommoncard

I was reading some on the crap site of Pro. If you click "The Founder" link, it first states that he feels that the numerous grading companies already in existence are failing to serve their customers needs. But the line that I think says it all is the very first line of the info about him. "A grading company is in business to serve the collectors and dealers in buying and selling their cards."
Honestly as collectors and even dealers is that why send our cards in? So we can be better served in "selling" our cards. With what we in this industry see on a daily basis of this pathetic company, it needs to end. As someone pointed out they are hurting the hobby horribly. Look at the buyers of the Pro cards, most are first time graded buyers, or people buying something for someone else. Besides a few on the board, who at the time may have not known better, I don't think anyone here would be caught dead buying ANYTHING that was in a PRO case. If you read just the founder link on the pro site, about they don't ask that the graders have any knowledge of the hobby and that they are ashamed to see so many others slabbing "altered" cards. They need to be done away with as quickly as possible, before more hobby und-educated get hurt.

Sorry for the rant, but I get sick of seeing the Pro Crap all over the web, and as for the seller here in question is one of the biggest sellers of Pro vintage stuff. He is well aware of what he is doing. He offers free PSA cards with each Pro purchase. Mainly so he can spam PSA in his auction Title.

Jeff The Founder

shouldabeena10

Marc,

I'm not an attorney... so I'm kind of guessing here.... but, I believe they claim to be a grading and authenticating company. Their website information certainly mentions altered cards...

<< ... A grading company should know papers, ink, photography, and printing techniques, as well as knowing how to measure centering, check corners and look for surface wear. At PRO we also take the time to properly identify each and every card, and we offer the most complete information in the industry on our labels.

..... we demand that every card be examined closely and authenticated before the grading begins. It is stupid to see counterfeits and altered cards in any grading company's holder. We tackle all the hard problems: autographs, Star cards, and special issues. If it is a sports card, we believe the collector should be able to get it identified and graded. >>


I believe there are laws about "public perception" and "deception" which might apply here.
I mean... If someone opened a business that claimed to authenticate and grade valuable paintings... and a bunch of fakes started rolling through their doors and selling at auctions, how long do you think it would take for someone to shut them down.

I truley believe this is the same thing... except that we are seen as "a bunch of over grown kids collecting cardboard"... so it's just not taken as seriously. But I think if someone did a little math on the amount of money involved.... it might open some eyes.

Come on guys..... repeat after me..... PRO MUST GO......PRO MUST GO....PRO MUST GO!!

Mike

Virtualizard

From the PRO website:



<< <i>Our graders take their time to do the job to the best of their ability. Unlike most of our competitors, we have no quotas for our graders to meet. However, we demand that every card be examined closely and authenticated before the grading begins. It is stupid to see counterfeits and altered cards in any grading company's holder. We tackle all the hard problems: autographs, Star cards, and special issues. If it is a sports card, we believe the collector should be able to get it identified and graded.

Our capsules are the finest made. They offer UV protection, strength, tamper resistance, and eye appeal. Our grading is based on 10 points, with decimals to separate within the grades. Our service is nonpareil! If you have tried the rest--Discover PRO and learn what a good grading service should be. >>




My analysis, one line at a time:


Our graders take their time to do the job to the best of their ability.

I read - "Our graders assign the highest grade that they can based on limited knowledge of the card in question so that the submitter can realize the highest possible profits from uneducated collectors".


Unlike most of our competitors, we have no quotas for our graders to meet.

I read - "We randomly assign high grades to keep submitters happy and this offers our graders the benefit of not having to work too hard."


However, we demand that every card be examined closely and authenticated before the grading begins.

I read - "We check the current Beckett to see if the card is listed."


It is stupid to see counterfeits and altered cards in any grading company's holder.

I read - "Not many other companies will put these cards in holders - we offer this exclusive service."


We tackle all the hard problems: autographs, Star cards, and special issues.

Star cards? That explains a lot. I read - "Trim it all, fake some autos, make your own cards - we'll grade them."


If it is a sports card, we believe the collector should be able to get it identified and graded.

I read - "Even if no legitimate grading company will grade and authenticate the card."


Our capsules are the finest made. They offer UV protection, strength, tamper resistance, and eye appeal.

They actually aren't bad holders. I don't have any currently in my possession, but if anyone would be willing to "donate" a few, I'd like to test their claim of UV protection. See my previous thread on this topic.


Our grading is based on 10 points, with decimals to separate within the grades.

Again, I read - "We randomly assign grades within the 8-10 range, just to create the misconception that we know what we're doing."


Our service is nonpareil!

What do Sno-Caps have to do with card grading?




If you have tried the rest--Discover PRO and learn what a good grading service should be.

I read - "If PSA, SGC, GAI, KSA, ASA, ZAG, BGS, BVG, BCCG, SCD, etc. have rejected your card, please send it to us - we are what a good grading service should be - a resource to sell your trimmed, re-colored, high grade cards for top dollar to uneducated, uninformed collectors.".

JEB.

NickM

Virt - I hurt myself laughing. The nonpareils were just too much.

Nick

Buckwheat

Jeb,

I nominate your post for the "post of the month" It should be on Sportscenter tonight.

motocrosser

JEB.......I second Buck's nomination. Great laugh.

GoSoxBoSox

Funny....but scary true.

Davino

Let's put in our descriptions(selling on Ebay), a mention of the dishonest grading companies. Maybe it will cause "newbies" to think twice and do some research. It must be done in a manner that does not open the door for any "slander" actions and should be "based upon many informed and knowledgable collectors, it is widely understood that "pro", "usa', "gem", etc are known to holder cards in an, at best "haphazard" manner without any regard to alterations". How's that?

Noname

<< <i>Link

I did not know PRO had a grade of 6.5 >>



I thought Pro only had a grade of a 10 (gem trimmed)