NY Daily News article on auction houses

DaBigHurt

Conflict of interest for authenticators?

With all the money being spent on memorabilia, how much longer can people stick their heads in the sand and pretend there is no conflict of interest?

RG58

Exactly why I do not (and will NEVER) buy anything but baseball cards. Buying autographs, bats, gloves, etc. can be such a scam. I have no proof but I would guess 25% of items offered are b.s. Too easy to get ripped off. If Billy Crystal can get scammed out of a 1/4 of a million dollars, imagine how easy the little guy could get taken for 150$.

Mantlefan

Article is right on the money. THEY authenticate it and we're supposed to believe it. Billy Crystal's 1960 Mantle glove wasn't even manufactured until at least 1964!! I do not buy any memorabilia. Too risky.

Rocco67

Thanks for linking to this article. I myself do not collect player memorabilia such as gloves, bats, or uniforms. For one, most of the stuff I would want is well beyond my financial means, and secondly, except for autographs, I am not sure how you can really authenticate a piece of equipment such as a glove or bat accurately.

Suprisingly even stuff that comes straight from the deceased players familial estate is prone to be inaccurately described by the auction house...how else do you explain the $71,000 CY Young Glove purchase in the article, where the buyer contacted the family and found it was used by Cy's grandchildren, not himself...big difference.

A quote from an article participant sums it up best here, in terms of a solution:


According to Terman, the handful of authenticators who control the memorabilia business through their ties to dealers and auction houses, pose a conflict of interest to buyers. "Until we have an independent board of authenticators, with no ties to dealers or auction houses, we'll always have this problem," he says.

qualitycards

After reading this article, you would think that criminal charges of fraud should be levied against the companies that mis-represent the truth. Does anyone think that the $239,000.00 that Crystal paid thinking the glove was at the height of Mantle's career, would have netted the same amount if it were properly disclosed that it was a 1966 glove were Mantle was often injured and the Yankees finished in last place? ...jay

Griffins

Jay-
Weren't criminal charges brought against Christies and Sotheby's a few years ago for price fixing, or something of the sort? I believe there was also some talk at the time about the house extending credit to certain buyers to help them afford to bid items up as well. I thought there was some sort of settlement on this, but I could have the details off a bit. Seems like they got caught, or at least charged, for a few things.

Mantlefan

Yes, there were fines and even some prison time for people from these companies. Their crime related to inflating bids on certain items.

purelyPSA

I thought the Christie's crime was collusion and price fixing on bidding on potential lots AS A SELLER, and doing it with other houses, like saying "I'm requesting X amount comission for selling said customer's items. You don't offer them better and the next time you have a nice series of items we won't undercut you either." But I could be wrong.

qualitycards

Based on the last few posts, the only thing I can guarantee is that I will not bid a dime on Christies. Even if they cleaned up their act, they don't deserve any business...jay

murcerfan

they're all crooks.

Basilone

Interesting story....the only thing is that sports memorbilia is a pimple on Christies a$$ so to speak...

beefcake210

The class action lawsuit and charges against Christie's and Sotheby's were on collusion to raise commissions - i.e. colluding to charge a larger seller fee, and to both raise their buyer's premiums.

This is just typical of the publicity our hobby gets. How often do you see a single positive thing said about the industry??

1420sports

That story really makes you think. I am bidding on a bat in the Mastro auction, and I have always wondered about "authenticity".

Hubcap

I do buy sports memorabilia and I have always told other collectors "Know your source". Yes, I have bought in years past from the large auction houses, and I always make sure there is rock solid provenance before I bid. What does that mean? A notarized letter from the player or the person who got the item directly from the player is a must for me. I would rather have that than a third party authenticity.

That's not to say that companies, such as PSA that do 3rd party authenticity, are fraudulent. For the most part, Mr. Spence et al with other companies do a good job. And Jim will tell you that he has made errors in the past. It's inevitable. But that process may lead to a conflict of interest and that is what bothers me, and a lot of other collectors.

dude

In regards to the Sotheby's Auction of the Mantle glove, clearly they are responsible for assuring that the items are accurately described. However, I'd be curious to know exactly how Barry Halper described it to Sotheby's since he was the source of the glove. Did he tell them it was a "circa 1960" glove? That I'd like to know.

Bingo33

At most any show that GAI set up at, you can stand within 2 feet of of Mike Baker and watch him grade a card in about 20 seconds flat. I assume since he trained most of the graders in this business, that this is the norm when it comes to grading cards.

I've also watched Jimmy Spence do the same, give the thumbs up or down on a signature in a blink of an eye.

Now a card is card is a card. Four corners, four edges, a front and a back. I got to think that a signature is more difficult to judge. A number of factors must be considered due to a lifetime of change in a signature. How do they make such a snap decision on a sig? I would like to know. When PSA/DNA sets up at the National, do they for example have access to known sigs of lets say Gil Hodges? I personally witnessed PSA give the thumbs up on a Hodges sig on a photo in two seconds (call me a liar, maybe Jim looked at it for 10 seconds) flat at a show in Chicago. How do they really know? They spent more time typing up the LOA then looking at what they were authenticating.

joedel

I have sat with Jimmy Spence for hours at a time while he has looked at a thousand or so signatures. While he was looking through a 1955 Topps collection of signed cards, I asked him "How do you know that the Tommy Carroll (#158 in 55 set) signature is legitimate"? He told me that he has 15 exemplars in his files of Tommy Carroll's signature from that era to Carroll's recent signatures, and he knows it was a good signature because he has seen hundreds of Carroll examples. He has also looked at a particular signature and said "No Good" and mentioned who he thought had signed it. I have seen him make photcopies of dozens of signatures for his files, when he comes across new examples. I trust his understanding of signatures more than anyone else in the hobby. Like anyone else in the world, he has probably made some mistakes along the way, but he is consistent and very informative. I believe his parents were also autograph dealers.

gemint

I always wondered how they authenticate exemplars. Especially for players who have been deceased for many years. Do they rely on signed personal checks? Even there, there's a risk that someone took a blank check and signed it with the player's name.

pc

<< <i>Article is right on the money. THEY authenticate it and we're supposed to believe it. Billy Crystal's 1960 Mantle glove wasn't even manufactured until at least 1964!! I do not buy any memorabilia. Too risky. >>



not risky if you do the legwork.

pc

<< <i>That story really makes you think. I am bidding on a bat in the Mastro auction, and I have always wondered about "authenticity". >>



contact H&B or the manufacturer
and they will help.

Noname

Let's see, it's a worn out glove. looks old, says mantle on it. Hmmm, I authenticate it as a Mickey Mantle game used glove. That baseball has Mockey mantle scribbled on it. That looks like his autograph, I say it's authentic.

I'm sure that's how a lot of stuff gets authenticated and the naive buyers go paying. "But I have a letter of authenticity, so it is real and worth a lot" is what they say, when a letter of authenticity is basically worthless, just like most of the forgery autographs out there.

Noname

Has anyone signed their name 10 times and tried to write it exactly the same all ten times? Did all 10 look exacxtly that same? No. At least one didn't really look the same. If this is what happens when you try and duplicate your own signature 10 times, how can you possibly authenticate an autograph "signed" by someone at the hotel rushing to get into the team bus?

purelyPSA

The answer to that is simple: you can't. I had a collection of signed cards (over 4K of them) and I offered them to a well known signed card dealer. He made me a (ridiculously low) offer on 3900 of them and returned about 70 or 80 others, cards he said were "either ghost signed or were of questonable authenticity". Of those in the questionable pile were about 40 I got myself in person.

From what I know, authenication services don't say whether or not a piece is forged...they leave that door open. What they do say is whether or not they're sure a signature is legit. That means that a lot of shaky sigs get thown out with the bath water. And, better to err on the side of caution, methinks, in a situation as dicey as whether or not a signature is valid.

Noname

Anyone who studies an autograph enough can forge it. That is why there are so many fakes.