1968 Topps Test Issues in the Player set registry

ydsotter

I was thinking of wring Gail and BJ about whether 1968-69 Topps test issues should be part of the Master Player Collections...
These are so scarce and relatively unavailable... I have seen so few for sale...
I'll never be able to hit over 85% on master collections of Earl Monroe, Bill Bradley, Willis Reed and others because I will probably never have an opportunity to acquire them...

(You can't retire your set and move on until you hit 90%...)

How do other player collectors in vintage basketball feel about this?
Since this test set is so incredibly scarce and would alienate many player collectors, should it be eliminated from the master collection or perhaps, be give a "bonus" status instead of a weight?
Thanks,
Geoff

Virtualizard

Although I'm not familiar with this basketball issue, a similar discussion took place regarding Venezuelan Topps baseball cards a little over a month ago.

Not allowing a card in a set (or making it a "bonus" card) sort of diminishes the enticement of the Set Registry for many. How would you feel if you had a super rare card registered in one of your sets, a card that you paid high $$$ for because of its rarity, and suddenly, PSA decided to remove it from your set because the other collectors of that player complained that the card was too hard to get?

I'll stick by my previous comments on this topic from the other thread - if PSA has graded the card, it should be eligible for inclusion in any set that it fits in.

I didn't mean to attack you Geoff, but I feel strongly about this. Trust me, I feel your frustration with some cards that I need.

JEB.

murcerfan

so there would be basic sets, master sets and semi-master sets for every player that appears in a "tough" set (which would be any card with a pop less than 10 or so?)........... ??
.....where does it end?

ydsotter

My main issue is that by including super super rare almost inaccessible issues is that it would alienate 99% of the participants.

I just wonder if it ultimtely discourages participation...

If it wasn't a regularly issued card... that might make the difference.

at any rate... I do follow the other argument and empathize with it... In fact, I am starting to agree with you.

It would be a big let down if I paid thousands of dollars for a psa 8 1968 topps test earl monroe and then found that I couldn't register it...

mikeschmidt

I'm not sure how it discourages participation.....

It would only discourage participation if you were hell-bent on having a complete master set.

Some of the best player sets out there only have the "major" cards of a player, and omit many of the rare, oddball type cards. Specifically, I am thinking of John and Marshall's Mickey Mantle player sets. As they only collect their players in 8 or better -- there is a plethora of vintage Mantle issues that will never find their way into their sets. But they are still amazing runs of cards....

MS

AlanAllen

I agree with jeb, but there is precedent for not including a card in a master set because it is too rare. I had my 1998 Score Showcase One-of-One Marcus Allen slabbed and requested to have it added to the Marcus Allen master set, and it was not added.

Joe

jmullen

Board,

I personally would like to see the 1968 Topps Test singles as part of certain Master Sets. Albeit, I am a bit biased at having over half the set, these cards can be found to those that look hard enough. I mean two years ago, I had a total of 1 Test card, now I have 13. In fact, I know of 3 that are for sale right now (I think its a King, Greer, and either Sloan or Bridges). To the best of my knowledge, about 10 of each card is in circulation. To the best of my knowledge, less than 10 people are registered for master sets of most players. Therefore, there are more cards out there than collectors (in a wierd sort of way).

When does a card become too rare? For most sports the question is difficult, but for basketball I think it is relatively easy since there are only about 60 pre-1970 issues that depict actual players. I think every card that has been graded should be on a master set. Why? Because the owner of the card DESERVES to be able to place their card on a master set list. It should be their privildge for having obtained the card in the first way. I don't think a "well if you have enough money" argument should be used here since I got my Test Monroe last year for around $400 (albeit it is probably a PSA 6 OC).

Cards that I think must be placed on master set lists are Kahns cards. For example, there should be all of Oscar Robertsons cards for Kahns on his master set. These cards are easy to find ... except impossible to find in any condition that would grade higher than a PSA 2.

Anyway, sorry if my comments do not make sense. I just got home from work and its 4am here in NYC. Feel free to email me if you are interested in the topps test cards as I can hook you up with the seller.

Furthermore, I am now writing montly 2-page articles for Beckett's Basketball Collector Monthly. In fact, I'm writing a full-fledge feature entitled "vintage set of the month" for them. The first article deals with ... da da da ... THE 1969 TOPPS TEST ISSUES!!! The article goes through the 3 major finds that were made in the past decade among a ton of other cool tidbits (e.g., what they were used for, how they were distributed, etc.). The first article has a street date of 12/15 (the January Issue). For the February issue, the set of the month will be the Bread for Energy set. Currently, I'm writing the article for the march isse, the 1899 Enameline Basketball Boy -- The first basketball card (well ... arguably).

I have to stop drinking redbull on these late work nights.

jeff@vintagebasketballcards.info
http://www.vintagebasketballcards.info

ydsotter

No apologies needed...
I posted the question because I was looking for feedback...
I have widened my perspective... and I tend to agree with the ethos of putting these in master sets now...
I enjoy putting master sets of The Knicks and my other favorite players together... it just sucks to know that I probably won't be able to acquire certain issues... BUT...
I guess I have my whole life right?
Among other things, the epitaph on my grave stone can read...."searched his entire life for a PSA 8 1968-69 Topps Test Earl Monroe..."
if anyone has a crumpled up topps test issue that a school teacher with a big heart can afford... lemme know.
Thanks,
Geoff

jmullen

Geoff,

I'll keep you in mind next time I come across a Monroe. Like I said, they aren't impossible to find. I'm sure a Monroe will come up sometime in the next few years. The problem is that the circulation of singles is decreasing as they find home with collectors that have a large amount of cards.

I know
2 people that have the 22 cards
1 person that has 21 of the 22 cards
1 person that has 15 of the 22 cards (+ 3 duplicates)
1 person (me) that has 13 of the 22 cards

That doesn't include the set that was recently sold by Sports Cards Plus (however I think that set may have been broken up)
That also doesn't include the fact that a first dealer alleges to have a complete set while a second dealer alleges to have 2 complete sets and an uncut sheet (which I do not believe at all)

jmullen

Geoff,

Being a Knicks fan ... does that mean you are in New York? If you are in New York City then there is a small group of us that get together every so often (sometimes at knicks games).

Jeff

Davalillo

My view is there should just be one set for each player and each set and it should be all encompassing. I know at least some collectors agree with this. I do not personally care if I am at 100 percent of a players cards that excludes his more challenging cards. I am equally happy at 77% of a complete master set. I really do not understand the need to have both a basic and master set.
Having a master set exclude certain of a players cards sounds ridiculous to me.
I get offered Topps Test cards from time to time but usually they are psa 7 or less so I pass. Jeff Mullen seems to often have them. Sports Cards Plus had a whole graded set I think a while ago. I can think of a few sets that are more rare than 1968 Topps Test.

jmullen

I agree that there should just be one type of set -- a master set that is all encompasing. As for rarity, you are definitely right about that. Scott's, 7-up capitals ...

ydsotter

Do you think adding modern cards like an upper deck retro autograph would be appropriate for a master set? or a piece of game used jersey? or a "turn back the clock" type of issue?

or does it need to be a significant issue dated when that player played?


Dav... I envy you for having access and opportunity to acquire test issues... I have two buddies that are doing the set in psa 7 psa 8..
They have acquired them in off ebay auctions... mastro maybe...
and through networking.

Mullen, I am from upstate, NY.... however, I am in Delaware now... for a couple of years more anyway... lived in boston and new haven as well... But I am pretty much a NY fan for everything.

FYI... on the subject of master set collections...
I could finish a few with the following: psa 8 or better.
1975 topps walt frazier
1975 Carvel Frazier, monroe, jackson
1971 Trios reed/west

I'd pay an arm and a leg for a 1975 walt frazier... Never been able to find that card in nice shape raw or graded... just a BVG 8.5... but I sold it in a mad rage against beckett a few years ago...

jmullen

Who are your two friends that are collecting the set in PSA 7 / PSA 8? I'd be interesting in hearing what cards they have / need. I'm trying to keep track of which ones are the rarest.

As for if inkredibles and things should be on a master set, I would prefer that they weren't, but I guess looking at my response from before ... they would have to be. I guess the issue gets even trickier if you have 1/1s and things ... To me the idea of a master set is just that ... every single card known for a particular player. Although it will be very difficult to do this with modern players (e.g., Shaq probably has 1,000 cards) it would not be that hard to do it for the old guys.

Speaking of Inkredibles, I just bought 2 Wests an hour ago for $23 dlvd.

Jeff

ydsotter

I am pretty sure you know one of the guys... email me...
-G

jmullen

I just sent you an email. I also told you about a great knicks card that is on ebay right now that is extremely rare. Its yours for the taking. Check the email out.

Jeff

bocaratondefense

Geoff and Jeff,
You both know that I spent the last two years trying to collect these cards. There was definitely noone offering these card to me for sale and I never saw cards that I needed for auction. I was stalled at thirteen cards for the last year and a half and recently gave up altogether selling the set to a collector with more resources. Before SportscardsPlus sold the set and a handful of singles a year ago, these things were impossible. Even today, they are a lot tougher than most people might think. Who are the dealers that have the complete sets? Do you know whether they are for sale?
Wes

jmullen

I know of 3 collectors with complete sets.
As for the dealers ... they are both in their "personal collections" ... and ... alas .. .not for sale. As for the second dealer ... I don't believe that he has anything.

Jeff

NickM

Davalillo - there is another reason for Master set vs. Basic set that is not about the rarity of the card. The Master set includes many cards of types that Basic set collectors may not feel are cards they want or need. A classic example can be found in the Mickey Mantle sets. The Master set includes cards such as the League Leaders multi-player cards, the '59 Topps Thrills and '61 Topps MVP cards, and the '68 Topps A.L. Superstars card and other multi-player cards. A Mantle collector might well feel that these cards are not part of a true Mickey Mantle collection and not be interested in them. Additionally, even regarding the common test or insert issues ('64 Giants, '66 Rub-Offs, '65 Embossed, '68 Game, etc.), some collectors might well choose not to include the non-major issues in their collections becuse they only want the major sets covered. The breakup of Basic and Master sets allows the collectors with limited foci to show off their collections without being disadvantaged.

Nick