Just curious: What is toning?

yawie99

I know that toning is the darkening or browning of the card stock, but I was wondering if anybody knew what it was from a chemical or physical standpoint? Is it the result of certain environmental exposure? A natural breakdown of the compounds in the paper? Something other than that? And does slabbing a card stop the process?

I've often wondered about this since one of the sets I collect, '53-54 Parkhurst, seems unusually prone to toning. Most of the cards have at least some degree of toning, but some are still "creamy white," as the auction catalogs like to say. Why have some cards managed to stay almost factory fresh while most others - even otherwise well-preserved NM-MT copies - so clearly show their age?

qualitycards

I can't give you the scientific answers that you are seeking.
I was just curious why some 1948-52 Bowmans have toned borders and some are bright white, same w/ 1959-61 Fleer etc...
I would think that all would age and tone, or none would...jay

norty

I suspect it's exposure to sunlight, dampness or other environmental influences over the course of time which affect the paper stock. If the item had been stored in a box away from sun and away from dampness or heat I suspect the cardboard would show much less deterioration from its original state.

purelyPSA

As an autograph collector, I know that certain types of paper are more prone to toning than others. Also, a lot of toning occurs (at least in the autograph world anyway) when the piece comes into contact with paper that's high in certain acids. I would assume it would all depend on how they were stored. Also a possibility is the stock reacted with the paper used for the face of the card (or vice versa). That's just a guess, but I wouldn't rule it out.

yawie99

One would think that light or moisture would have something to do with it, but as Jay pointed out there's certain sets that seem to tone much more easily than others, which makes me think differences in paper stock also play a role. Anyone have any idea or know a paper/conservation expert who might be able to satisfy my curiosity?

yawie99

Thanks, P.

KING KELLOGG

yawie99...

Here's something to think about........


Norty..You're correct!!...Toning, or darkening, of paper stock is mainly due to light and moisture in the air. Card stock used in the making of sports cards from about 1989 and before (mostly Topps and OPC), has actually two different layers of paper stock bonded together.

The back (reverse) layer is made up of lower grade post consumer scrap paper mixed with new wood fiber. A lot of this "post consumer" material is from recycling plants from all over the US. It includes OCC (old corrugated containers), UNP (used newsprint), and a variety of krafts, and coated (clay glossy ) stock. The mixture has a high content of what the paper industry calls "ground wood". I'll get to the importance of that term in a moment...

The front ( obverse) layer is mainly made up recycled PBK (printed bleached kraft...the same material used in the cover of your phone book...), and sulphite stock, with new bleached kraft added in for brightness. By using post comsumer scrap (recycled material) it is probable that small amounts of ground wood (cardboard and used news print) would make its way into the hyrdo-pulper and continue through the process to become paper.

The two fibers (back and front) are bonded together by process using a wet conveyer belt that accepts the low grade dark pulp first and then the high grade wet stock is laid on top of the first material. Sound confusing?? Think of making a cake...Lay the cake flat and then frost the top with a very flat knife...This conveyor is running at top speed and runs 27/7...Never shuts down...

Now to the "toning" part...

Because all of these materials used to make the paper in sports cards have "ground wood" (old newsprint and cardboard) in their mix, they will act just as old newspapers and cardboard boxes will out in the environment. Check out that pile of "Daily Journals" you have stacked out on the back porch...Carefully peel back layers and you will see "Toning" on the outside and "whitening" on the inside...

No matter how "white" you cards are today....leave them out...and they will turn dark, because of the ground wood content in the fibers.


BTY...If you want to check if paper stock has ground wood within it, touch the paper with a liquid called florelglucenol......If it turns "red"...its ground wood.


And that's your science lesson for today...



Class dismissed......

....Except for Jay....... After school eraser cleaning for you pal...




Larry

yawie99

Long live the King!

KING KELLOGG

yawie99...


Long "winded" KING....LOL


Hope that didn't bore 'ya to death......ha'



Larry

calleocho

this is a real interesting question

the sonic seal from the slab should be able to keep things like humidity and dust particules ..but is the plastic UV coated?

also ...will the hobby eventually accept cards that have been "restored" to its original form with out any alterations...for example :

if a kid wrote on a mantle back in 52...would it be ok to remove the ink? ...i mean the card will still be the same size, color , have the same corners , edges etc...just removing the foreing chemical that its not part of the actual card and was never meant to be a part ...i know this is done with painting and its quite normal such as removing the coats of smoke from painting in ceilings and removing stains from a canvas.

this would really apply to very few cards ...just the ones with a population of less than 5 known in the world.

RobE

King,you should be allowed a government grant to fund a program on PBS to share exactly what you've said here.

That is just priceless! Guess they don't call you the KING for nothing

I've always thought of toning with much less detail.Is the card bright or faded?Never thought much of why other than where a card might have been stored or what it might have been exposed to over the years.

yawie99

Definitely not too long of a response. (How'd you acquire that knowledge anyway?) Your answer didn't specifically state this, but I guess cards from sets that tone easily must have a higher concentration of "ground wood" than cards from sets with a low tendency to tone.

KING KELLOGG

calleocho...

2 responces...

On the UV issue...Seems like I read somewhere that the plastic used in the holdering process is UV resistant. I could be wrong. I went back through the site map for PSA and couldn't find anything on it....It just "sticks" in the back of my head. Maybe Joe O will come on and clear that question up for all of us...

The "restoring" matter is a different aspect altogether. When paper is made it starts as wet pulp that is laid onto a fast moving wet conveyor belt. The pulp is extruded out of a large mixing machine that is called a Hydro-pulper (like a huge marguarita blender...ha). As its making its "slurry", all the fibers start lining up side by side and slowly make its way onto the conveyor belt. By that time the "grain" of the paper is set. If you look closely, VERY closely...at most all paper, you will see the fibers are all going the same direction, especially in expensive bond papers that are used in the making of stationary and envelopes. If there is ANY disruptions in that "grain", the fibers will break or not continue to bond together..hence...crease, wrinckle, or tear....If you look closely at an old creased baseball card (under your loupe is good) you will see broken fibers that can't be put back together. Removing a pen or pencil mark from a card would be double fold....First the point of the pencil would probably break fibers just by the pressure used to make a mark, and I don't know anybody that writes so light as not to make their mark....Second, when somebody tries to remove that mark, there is disturbance in that action also. If an eraser was used, even lightly, fibers and the patina (the everyday toning) would be different that the rest of the card. If any moisture is used, there is a risk of disrupting the entire area that is moistened...hence...seperation of fibers. There are restoration experts in all fields of collectables, and some are VERY good, but they will all say that it is impossible to bring a damaged paper fiber back to its original state. Restoratation of paintings also come to mind.

I think on a rare card with a small handful of pieces known, restoring the card (properly and by an expert) is a must.....The card would cease to be a card anymore..and become a piece of rare art...!


*******

RobE...

Government cash to help out???

Great!!! (Free beer for all the board members..errr....ughhhhh...I mean all the qualified experts to assist me in my classroom.......)


*********

yawie99...

From 1977 to 1987, I owned and/or operated numerous secondary fiber plants (reclaim operations) in the northwest and 17 states in the midwest. I supplied reclaim fibers to companys like Weyerhauser, Fort Howard Paper Company, Western Kraft, etc. My business travels took me to many pulp and paper mills across the country. Everytime you take a tour of a plant operation somewhere, you would pick up a little more knowledge on what's happening around you (kind'a like this board...ha'). I was also responsible for the quality control at my own locations. The paper mills get REAL UPSET if you send them 1000 tons of "ground wood" tainted secondary fibers that were supposed to become pure white contract bond paper. We were constantly "testing" our loads for purity. Hope that explains a little...I said, I hope that explains a little.....HEY.....WAKE UP!!!! (pretty boring stuff, but you asked...ha') Construction, recycling operations, and card shows kept me hoppin' all the time...

The second thought you had was concerning, maybe, higher or lower concentrations of GW in the card base. I really don't think that is probable. The consistancy, brightness, durability, and a hundred other things about paper is all outlined in the published American Institute of Paper. Remember that paper mills run 24/7 and are constantly quality control monitored at many, many steps along the way. It doesn't make good business sense to have a widely used product like paper with inconsistancies in its production. I would rather say, that the sports cards, around the US, were probably stored in different ways, and that would lead to the conclusion of different "toning". Here is another thing...We have all purchased large "groups" of cards. Whether it was from a friend, and associate, or off the 'net, as we look at the cards from one sorce, we see a "pattern" of the collector themselves... Buy a group from a collector in one part of the country, and he would have basically the same collector habits and probably the same toning. Another collector would have, maybe, a different toning coming form a different part of the country. Add the exchanges of all collectors, and you will see cards side by side with different degrees of toning....Just Maybe...


One additional thought...(Yeah..He's going to shut up!!!....)

The reason you don't see any toning on the newer cards is that for "refracting" and "foiling" images, you need extreamly fine paper stock. The paper that is used nowadays for those "super duper" glossy pictures do not contain ANY GW...'nata...zip... The fibers are very long, flat, and new..No "this product uses blah, blah % post consumer content"...The glossies would have a great chance of being "bumpy" and muttled. Not a good thing when your company is trying to get $50 a pack for 2 or 3 cards...


Anyway...I hope I've help with a little info for the guys on the boards...



Best


Larry

yawie99

Thanks! I wouldn't have thought that the paper expert I was seeking was here all along.

KING KELLOGG

The best kind of paper is that plastic coated low end stuff that wraps around a cold one...


Cheers!!!


Larry

norty

King:

Thanks for the tutorial. That was great!

(Like I said, light and moisture)

minibeers

great thread.
Scott

murcerfan

short answer:
ultra-violet degeneration and oxidation.

I like King's answer better, but the judges are still checking the spelling, grammar and use of the term patina

edited to add: the judges say that Webster's include two alternate definitions of patina:
1. a surface appearance of something grown beautiful with age or use (psa might disagree)
2. an appearance or aura that is derived from association, habit, or an established character (hmmm...)

So we have a winner ! great post........... after all those years staring at paper it's no wonder you go for those 3-d's

KING KELLOGG

murcerfan...

Cheese also "tones" with the proper amount of ultra-violet degeneration and oxidation..

(It ends up with a "warm fuzzy patina"...LOL...)


Somebody please check the spelling of "patina"...Baseball Card Science needs to know...



Larry

GoSoxBoSox

I knew collecting at a fantic level is boarding on dorkdom but you guys have set an all-time low with this thread.


And I love it

qualitycards

KING - The erasers are all clean now....jay

KING KELLOGG

qualitycards...

OK now Jay.....Write on the blackboard....100 times....

I WILL ONLY SELL MY KELLOGG'S 10'S TO KING KELLOGG...
I WILL ONLY SELL MY KELLOGG'S 10'S TO KING KELLOGG...
.....
......





Larry

NickM

King - now you write on the board 100 times

I WILL PAY WHATEVER JAY ASKS ME TO.


This could be the start of a beautiful friendship.

Nick

KING KELLOGG

NickM...


He got...

He say...

I pay...


........................

.......................


I got

I say...

I remember...

He pay...




It's always been a beautiful thing...






Larry