recent submission results...trimmed?
lseecon
Posts: 318 ✭✭
These were my recent results... Quite a few one of a kinds but I am disappointed in the beautiful 48 bowman.I bought the 48 bowman in August from a dealer in San Diego and paid high book. I assume he will refund my money. What have people's experience been with returning altered cards to reputable dealers?
LINE # CERT # CARD CARD CO. CARD # CARD NAME VARIETY GRADE
1 11655769 1948 BOWMAN 40 MARTY MARION N/A Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
2 11655770 1960 LAKE TO LAKE BOB GIGGIE BRAVES 9
3 11655771 1957 TOPPS 51 FRANK SELVY N/A 7
4 11655772 1909 COLGAN'S CHIPS GUS GETZ STARS OF DMD.-BOSTON 9
5 11655773 1932 ORBIT GUM PINS 6 KIKI CUYLER N/A 8
6 11655774 1910 -12 SWEET CAPORAL JACK ROWAN PINS 7
Date Received: 11/18/2003
Date of Grades Posted: 12/01/2003
Date Shipped: 12/01/2003
Thanks!!!!!!!!!
LINE # CERT # CARD CARD CO. CARD # CARD NAME VARIETY GRADE
1 11655769 1948 BOWMAN 40 MARTY MARION N/A Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
2 11655770 1960 LAKE TO LAKE BOB GIGGIE BRAVES 9
3 11655771 1957 TOPPS 51 FRANK SELVY N/A 7
4 11655772 1909 COLGAN'S CHIPS GUS GETZ STARS OF DMD.-BOSTON 9
5 11655773 1932 ORBIT GUM PINS 6 KIKI CUYLER N/A 8
6 11655774 1910 -12 SWEET CAPORAL JACK ROWAN PINS 7
Date Received: 11/18/2003
Date of Grades Posted: 12/01/2003
Date Shipped: 12/01/2003
Thanks!!!!!!!!!
0
Comments
AKA..
Ebay - mpn2gwvputty
Ratso of the Booze Junkies MC
"If the grade doesn't fit, you must resubmit"
GMM
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
No harm no foul, but it left a bad taste in my mouth since the seller wouldn't refund it. (I believe his passion for the 1973 Topps PSA 9s and 10s I had traded him clouded his thinking!)
All in all, I'm fine with his decision though. It's the chance I took in buying an ungraded card... just adds to thought I stick to more and more now - "if it's too good to be true... it probably is..."
<< <i>I had a gorgeous 1949 Bowman Paige that I bought from a 'somewhat' reputable eBay seller (I've since seen him on the boards now) and it came back trimmed from PSA (twice). I even had them pull it and look at it a 3rd time while it was still there. I had Beckett try and grade it - same result. PRO finally graded it for me so I could sell it and try and recoup my money (it graded a 9 and I pretty much broke even).
No harm no foul, but it left a bad taste in my mouth since the seller wouldn't refund it. (I believe his passion for the 1973 Topps PSA 9s and 10s I had traded him clouded his thinking!)
All in all, I'm fine with his decision though. It's the chance I took in buying an ungraded card... just adds to thought I stick to more and more now - "if it's too good to be true... it probably is..." >>
A&J:
Just as an aside -- if Beckett also graded it as trimmed, you probably should have been able to determine yourself that it was, in fact, trimmed. Did you not feel it was trimmed upon your personal review of the card...?
<< <i>I had a gorgeous 1949 Bowman Paige that I bought from a 'somewhat' reputable eBay seller (I've since seen him on the boards now) and it came back trimmed from PSA (twice). I even had them pull it and look at it a 3rd time while it was still there. I had Beckett try and grade it - same result. PRO finally graded it for me so I could sell it and try and recoup my money (it graded a 9 and I pretty much broke even).
No harm no foul, but it left a bad taste in my mouth since the seller wouldn't refund it. (I believe his passion for the 1973 Topps PSA 9s and 10s I had traded him clouded his thinking!)
All in all, I'm fine with his decision though. It's the chance I took in buying an ungraded card... just adds to thought I stick to more and more now - "if it's too good to be true... it probably is..." >>
anj-
The fact that you went to PRO to hide the issue and then sold it to someone to recoup the money is pretty under-handed. I understand why you did it but I still think that it's a terrible thing to do.
Tom
I checked the feedback of the guy that ended up winning and looked at some of his previous purchases. He actually had several PRO graded cards in his collection and was apparently putting together a cheap version of the 1949 set.
If I was really that off base in doing what I did, I take full responsibility. I just figured that by getting it graded by PRO, people who buy them know what they're getting into... or at least they should.
<< <i>If I was really that off base in doing what I did, I take full responsibility. I just figured that by getting it graded by PRO, people who buy them know what they're getting into... or at least they should. >>
anj-
I agree people should know what they're buying...but the fact is many do not. Take a look at the wording you used in your post. You made it look like you sent the card to PRO so that it would get a high grade and you could recoup your money. Doesn't that mean you're trying to hide the fact that it's trimmed? So if we we're harsh, shouldn't we be?
I'm not judging you, really. I know how it feel to be taken by some jerk. It hurts and angers me to no end. But the fact remains that if I sold this card as "trimmed" I would simply state that fact in the header and the description so that it is truly clear. By sending it to PRO that says something different to the collectors on this board. Plus the fact your wording made it look like you were passing the buck on an unsuspecting buyer. Really...why else send it to PRO? Logic tells me you're covering something up so that someone that doesn't know the difference in grading companies might jump on it? My God we read these posts every week on these boards like the recent post by Putty who bought the 1956 PRO Mantle.
I guess in the end we're just trying to discourage people from hiding "issues". You gotta admit...your intent was to hide the issue and you did since you just about broke even.
Tom
And yes, I agree, my wording probably wasn't the best in my previous post.
I almost always deal with PSA graded cards and ventured out to PRO since I figured that would've been the best way to recoup my loss (instead of posting it on eBay as an ungraded 'trimmed' card). In a sense, I lost money with all the grading fees I wasted, but I'd fall back again on the fact that people that are buying PRO cards should know what they're getting into... and in this case, if the guy was willing to spend $750, I think he was... it was also evidenced by the fact that he had bought other PRO graded cards from the 1949 set that also had mentioned in the auction that they were 'trimmed'.
While I'm on my soapbox, I still love that card and have been looking for another copy to add to my collection since. (See my previous posts on 1949 Bowman cards). If you saw my previous post last year regarding this topic, another board member did the exact same thing to me... he bought the card from a 'reputable' dealer on eBay as an ungraded card. I'm guessing he had the same thing done (grade it and found out it was trimmed) and then sold it to me in a trade offline. The fact that he wouldn't take it back bothered me.
All in all, I guess I could have sold the card as a 'trimmed' and ungraded card, but I'm sure I wouldn't have made up as the route I eventually took. I'll have to live with the decision I made, but b/c of the dollar amount involved, I thought that was the best decision for me to make.
1) the new owner never sells the card
2) the card is sold
a. the new owner knows it is trimmed and they never sell it.
b. the card is sold to an unsuspecting buyer and tries to cross it over and finds out it is trimmed.
My bet is that 2b happens more than once with this card.
No matter what happens PRO stays in the business and continues to slab trimmed and non-trimmed cards. If, as a knowledgeable hobbyist, you choose not to support misleading companies then they will eventually go away.
Does anyone want a PRO 10, 1970 Pete Rose (trimmed)
Chris
<Shrug>
<< <i>After a while -- I stopped feeling sorry for hobby enthusiasts willing to spend over $500 on a "PROfessionally" graded sportscard without doing their homework on the grading company behind it. PRO has been around for a few years now -- and anyone out there that is willing to drop major money on a card should know better.
<Shrug> >>
That's a cop-out schmitty. It's wrong and you know better.
<< <i>
<< <i>After a while -- I stopped feeling sorry for hobby enthusiasts willing to spend over $500 on a "PROfessionally" graded sportscard without doing their homework on the grading company behind it. PRO has been around for a few years now -- and anyone out there that is willing to drop major money on a card should know better.
<Shrug> >>
That's a cop-out schmitty. It's wrong and you know better. >>
GoSoxBoSox:
I disagree. I have never submitted to PRO, and I have never sold a PRO-graded card whereby I did not personally guarantee that the card was original and unaltered (believe it or not, PRO was somewhat reputable for the first 12-18 months it was in business....)
I think that I spend a lot of time trying to educate other hobbyists and collectors about baseball cards. I just do not feel compassion for the (usually greedy) souls out there who think that they can enter this hobby and somehow "beat the system" by picking up a super deal on a PRO card and then crossing it over to PSA. I truly feel that if you are going to spend $1,000 or more in the hobby, that you are obligated to educate yourself as to what you are buying or run the risks of getting burned. I just don't feel sorry anymore for people that spend big money on PRO cards.
I also do not feel sorry for people that purchase Satchell Paige, Babe Ruth or Roger Maris single-signed baseballs without educating themselves on the player's signature, and learning which autograph dealers can and cannot be trusted. People's greed at the thoughts of getting a good deal is what led to the creation of such fiascos as Operation Bull Pen.
Though I despise PRO as a grading company, as well the myriad forgers out there -- I nonetheless lack compassion for any customer who spends serious money pursuing their wares.
While I agree with your general assessment that people should know what they're buying please keep in mind where I'm coming from in this particular case. anj guy was taken by a thief for $750, no doubt. Wanting to get his money back he sends the card to PRO. Why? As he stated he wanted to get his money back. That means he sent the card to PRO to pawn off this "high-grade" card to an "unknowledgable soul" that knows the grading system, but not necessarily the grading companies. This was a mallicious attempt to rip-off someone that fits the "unknowledgable soul" description in order to make-up his loss.
It's everything that's wrong with this hobby (well a big part of the problem anyway). If people stopped sending these cards to PRO there'd be no PRO and it'd be one less thing to chase away potentially new collectors. I think we'd all agree that more collectors would be great for the hobby. That said, I will always try to discourage actions I think are detrimental to the hobby. anj was wrong in this case. Even he admits that this would be wrong without mentioning what he knows about the card in the auction description.
I think we as "knowledgable collectors" need to push for honesty and integrity. God knows I try to treat my buyers like I want to be treated by sellers. I say I expect you to know better because I know you do. I guess I'm just surprised you're not slamming practices like this.
I feel like a walking an old lady across the street or something
Ahhh, I remember it like it was yesterday....
This new thing called the internet. You log on and buy stuff. Easy enough..... I can do that.
Ohh, what's that... eBay? Hmmm... Never heard of that. Let's check it out. Cool... football cards.
Man, I haven't collected those in years... I bet I can get some great deals here.
WOW... look at all these cards! I'll take that, and that, and that,... and what's this... this poor lady is selling off her husbands collection because he had a heart attack... let me help her out. I'll take that, and that, and that...
what's this.... get 50 old wax packs for only $10.... better get a few of those.... man, this is too easy!
(several weeks later)
Hmmm, ..... still haven't gotten that package from that guy that sold me the Mint set of cards. I'm sure he's cashed my money order by now... let's e-mail him. That's funny... his e-mail keeps coming back
with no such user found? Must be a computer glitch or something.... let's check his auctions. OK, what does Not A Registered User mean?
Let's ask eBay... I'm sure they'll help me
(several weeks later)
OK, we've learned that eBay is no help. We've learned not to buy from Dutch auctions, low feedback ratings, and no cash or money order only people. Now that we are smarter... lets go buy some cards!
I'll take this, and this, and this, ... lets see, this poor guy doesn't have a scanner to take pictures of his cards. He says they are MINT and fresh out of the pack, so it should be OK... plus everyone seems to have overlooked this one... what a great deal! I'll take that, and that, and that... Gee that scan is pretty small and kind of fuzzy... I can't tell if that corner is dinked or not. He says it's NM/MT so let's go for it. I'll take that, and that, and that....
(several weeks later)
OK, we've learned not to trust descriptions, never buy a card unless we see it, and bad scans usually mean bad cards. Now that we are smarter.... let's go buy some cards!
I'll take that, and that, and that...
(several weeks later)
OK, we've learned that most sellers are lying by at least one grade on there descriptions, we've learned that 50% of the sellers don't know how to ship the cards properly so we have to always ask for bubble mailers and sealed top loaders. Now that we are smarter.... let's go buy some cards!
I don't know why I didn't think of this before.... Common sense says if you want pack fresh cards then buy the packs and pull them out yourself. Let's go buy some packs..... I'll take that, and that, and that.....
(several weeks later)
OK, we've learned that people are opening and resealing wax packs. We've learned that certain years of grocery rack cello's are all bent up. We've learned that the factory didn't really seal certain years of boxes. We've learned that new packs can be felt up and also watch for people buying old wrappers and empty boxes. Vending boxes and cases can be dropped and abused and searched. Now that we are smarter.... let's go buy some cards!
Hmmm... what are these things called graded cards? A company actually verifies that the card is NM or Mint and assigns it a grade... then they put it in a holder that can't be opened. Gee, they seem a little pricy, but if I'm sure it's a perfect card..... how can you go wrong there? Let's do a search under graded cards.... hmmm... What's this.... a 1957 Johnny Unitas RC PRO 9 for only $500.00 with 3 minutes left in the auction. Heck, I saw a graded 8 sell the other day for over $1000.00... and it looks like everyone has overlooked this one too... Must be my lucky day! Hmmm, I wonder what a private auction means?
All in all, I'm fine with his decision though. It's the chance I took in buying an ungraded card... just adds to thought I stick to more and more now - "if it's too good to be true... it probably is..."
When I wrote, "I'm fine with HIS decision..." I meant, I was fine with the guy that originally sold me the Paige card not taking a refund. When I wrote "if it's too good to be true... it probably is.." That was directed at ME. Meaning, I saw something that was probably too good and went for it anyways. I didn't mean that comment to apply to the buyer of the card I was selling (though it applies anyways).
And now I know how athletes feel when people twist their words... GoSoxBoSox.. you said:
That means he sent the card to PRO to pawn off this "high-grade" card to an "unknowledgable soul" that knows the grading system, but not necessarily the grading companies.
Where did I say the guy was an "unknowledgable soul"?! Like I tried to say, the buyer had previously bought more than a few 1949 Bowman PRO graded cards. It's his prerogative to buy what he wants.
And mikeschmidt.. I wasn't buying an autographed baseball... I was buying an ungraded card. Furthermore, I was dealing with a member of eBay that had decent feedback and who is also a member of this board AND has a very high rated set on our registry. I've bought ungraded cards before (how else do they get into PSA holders in the first place?!) and thought I had done my homework. I asked for enlarged scans, history of purchase, etc. etc. I agree, probably not the smartest thing to do with a card of that high a value, but I trusted the seller and thought we were making a fair exchange.
Anyways, all this talk of integrity and honesty, etc has been a good exercise for me. I'm glad there are plenty of good dealers and collectors out there. However, I'm sad to feel like I can't go out and get a high value ungraded card anymore and have to be chained to getting things off of eBay already graded. *sigh* .. of course, buying a home doesn't really lend itself to buying anything related to baseball cards anyways....
<< <i>And mikeschmidt.. I wasn't buying an autographed baseball... I was buying an ungraded card. Furthermore, I was dealing with a member of eBay that had decent feedback and who is also a member of this board AND has a very high rated set on our registry. I've bought ungraded cards before (how else do they get into PSA holders in the first place?!) and thought I had done my homework. I asked for enlarged scans, history of purchase, etc. etc. I agree, probably not the smartest thing to do with a card of that high a value, but I trusted the seller and thought we were making a fair exchange. >>
If the guy did not offer you some resolution in the matter and he is a member of the board...why not out him?
But then again....you should of questioned why he was selling a high valued raw card when he has a highly ranked set on the registry.
I know that now... of course, like I said, he was friendly about it and as I mentioned earlier, it wasn't a straight cash deal- we traded for it, part cash - part cards. In retrospect, I should've just asked him to grade the card himself. I guess my judgment was clouded by the fact that if the card were to come back an 8, I wouldn't have been able to afford it so we traded as if it were a 7 (SMR$1100).
I just went back through my files and found his letter he sent back to me. I had forgotten that he actually refunded me $350 (but kept the cards in the trade!). The original amount of the transaction was $1100 (I must of thought $750 was the original amount since that's how much the card sold for on eBay). It's interesting in his letter that he wrote "sorry for getting you involved with this loser (referring to the original owner of the card) with me"... I must've missed that comment the first time around.. either that, or I just had had enough of the situation and let it go since I broke even.
I dug up a hardcopy of my original post on this (back in 12/02) and read through it just now. It's kinda funny. This whole thing last year made me want to get out of the whole PSA set/grading business. I had sold most of my cards and even dumped my #1 73 '53 Reprints set. Some of you will remember this. I left this board for a good 3-4 months. It's funny how I've started to creep back into the business but I guess this is a good reminder for me to stay away.
If the guy did not offer you some resolution in the matter and he is a member of the board...why not out him?
Well, in a way, he did, though it wasn't a total refund. Many people (including me) thought it should have been totally refunded. I guess since I made out even I didn't feel the need to 'out him'. I did think about the benefit to everyone - I haven't seen him sell anything on eBay ungraded (but I just realized that he could be making trades with others like he did with me).
So here goes:
1. The original seller of the ungraded card was Rick from Broadway StrikeZone (I think that's the name). I believe they are on eBay as brsz and brsz-2. I don't believe they are on this board.
2. I hadn't actually seen the person I traded with on this board until recently: Dave Read - and his tag on eBay and here is 'fread'. He has the #3 1973 Topps set on the registry. Unfortunately, 2 of the cards he has in his set was from this trade we did. Hopefully no one else has been affected since. If you collect 73s or 69s, I guess this is a potential red flag if you deal with him - he seemed nice enough so I hope it doesn't happen to anyone else. Since we did have some resolution, I've forgiven and tried to forget.
Anyways, hope this helps and thanks to all for your feedback. Good luck with your sets!
As for whether anj did something wrong, once the card has been rejected by PSA, what should he do, if not sell the card with the disclosure given that it was rejected as trimmed? Eat a $750 loss? If the problem is that he had the card encased by PRO and made the disclosure that PSA rejected it rather than selling it raw with the same disclosure, he did not harm his direct buyer at all by this, as they received the same disclosure either way. And if his buyer wants to resell the card without making the disclosure, he could resell a raw card without making that disclosure or submit it to PRO himself and get that grade (and then sell without the disclosure).
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
To answer your question on the "unknowledge soul" comment. I'm sure why think I said you mentioned that term. My interpretation of anyone who gets a card graded by PRO is that the seller is trying to pass the card of as a "high-grade" card to an "unknowledgable soul".
I agree this is getting out of hand. We are disecting every word you wrote in the original post and interpreting it's intended meaning v. it's implied meaning. It's really not necessary. I think you you understand why that post was interpreted as it was. You've clarified your position. Let's move on.
I don't think you're a crook or anything. I just thought your judgement was bad in this case. But hey...that's just my opinion. No biggy. God knows I've made a ton of mistakes myself.
Stay cool and let's all continue to buy and sell smart.
Tom
<< <i>As for whether anj did something wrong, once the card has been rejected by PSA, what should he do, if not sell the card with the disclosure given that it was rejected as trimmed? Eat a $750 loss? If the problem is that he had the card encased by PRO and made the disclosure that PSA rejected it rather than selling it raw with the same disclosure, he did not harm his direct buyer at all by this, as they received the same disclosure either way. And if his buyer wants to resell the card without making the disclosure, he could resell a raw card without making that disclosure or submit it to PRO himself and get that grade (and then sell without the disclosure). >>
Nick,
I'm puzzled by you. You can't say it's okay to send a trimmed card to PRO and then sell it without disclosing that it's trimmed if you think it's wrong to send your trimmed cards to PRO to hide flaws. You're always the first guy to jump on unscrupulous acts. In the post by
Putty you wanted to chase down the guy who sold Putty the PRO Mantle. Now you're condoning the act? Weren't you upset because Putty (being the unknowledgable soul" that he was) was taken by someone who sells PRO cards? In that post I actually stood up for the seller because he advertised a PRO Mantle and sold just that (which is Schmitty's point - buyer beware).
anj's case was different. I interpreted his comments (right or wrong) to be covering up a flawed card to recoup funds. The difference there is that anj is knowledgable and went to PRO to avoid having to say "my card is trimmed" in the auction description. I may have interpreted unfairly?...or maybe not? But I wasn't alone in my interpretation.
I'm just saying Nick.....be consistent because I think you're being a bit wishy washy on this issue.
Tom
But to be out $750 was going to be pretty tough to swallow. And after collecting for over 20 years, I couldn't tell that the card was trimmed. In my auction I stated what had happened so that people would know about the card's 'history'.
That looks to me like he told the buyer that PSA had rejected the card as being trimmed.
If he discloses the problem, putting the card in a PRO case does not hide the problem. Does it make it easier for an unscrupulous buyer to hide the problem? Well, only by the cost of a PRO grade (which is presumably already figured into that buyer's bidding).
You weren't alone in your interpretation, but I don't think it fully took into account anj's explanation in later posts (his first post by itself was consistent with your interpretation).
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>Nothing taken personally. Anyways, it's always interesting to hear people's feedback and all in all, it's great to see that most of us are only trying to look out for one another. >>
exactly right!!!
<< <i>You weren't alone in your interpretation, but I don't think it fully took into account anj's explanation in later posts (his first post by itself was consistent with your interpretation). >>
Nick,
I agree. Certainly if he had mentioned in his first post that the auction description stated the card was trimmed I would not have reacted the way I did.
One thing we can all agree on is that PRO needs to disappear!!!!
The really sad part is that I could have probably listed another 100 lessons I had to learn the hard way along with those... but the post was getting too long.... and I was starting to babble.
All I know is that I could have saved myself a ton of money and hassles if I would have found the PSA boards a couple of years ago, or if someone had taken me under their wing. But unfortunately, I didn't really talk to other collectors, or research anything.... so I took the long road to get here. I'm still learning new things about the hobby every week, and I know I still have much to learn. But just reading the posts on these boards (and talking to other collectors) has made a world of difference in the way I approach buying and selling cards.
There will always be new people coming in and out of the hobby. When I stumble across one... I try to help enlighten them if I can, and I'd like to think that I've saved a few people some time and money. Don't get me wrong..... I'm not Saint Mike by any means. I've sold a few 'off brand' graded cards myself.... so I'm not going to pass judgement on anyone for selling a card, as long as they have honorable intentions and will back up what they sell.
And as for my little 1988 stash... (which I'm now sorry I ever told you about
Mike