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Lack of appreciation for SGC by Mastro

How about a couple "little white lies" and a "snow job" for christmas ?

Lot 1885.) 1951 Topps Connie Mack All-Star Lou Gehrig graded EX-MT by PSA, the only example at that level with none graded higher....blah,blah,blah(goes on about the history of topps and western civilization)......This amazing survivor depicts baseball immortal Lou Gehrig, and as the only member of a "population of one", is the finest of it's kind known to exist........blah,blah,blah(goes on to detail the various faults).........That is why this superlative Gehrig item has been graded "PSA EX-MT 6" and it is the explanation for the fact that no 1951 Connie Mack All-Star has ever been graded higher. This is a simply extraordinary "key" card from a super desireable isue. It's condition and it's subject generate incomparable appeal, and form a tandem that is unequalled in the industry.

The guy who graded these cards now works for Mastro.

edited to add: this is not a PSA v. SGC debate, my point is that misrepresentations like this by a "trusted" auction house are a bad thing for everybody involved in the hobby (except maybe Bill and his consignor).



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Comments

  • BasiloneBasilone Posts: 2,492 ✭✭
    Okay...add "by PSA" in the description.

    Probably an oversight by the copywriter.
  • BasiloneBasilone Posts: 2,492 ✭✭

    With all of the facts and figures presented in the catalog....the fact that they did not write "by PSA" in that particular description is really splitting hairs...IMO. I would call Bill and have Khyber get cained for such an error.

  • murcerfanmurcerfan Posts: 2,329 ✭✭
    unequalled in the industry?

    the finest of it's kind known to exist ?

    the fact that no 1951 Connie Mack All-Star has ever been graded higher ?

    the only example at that level with none graded higher ?


    ..............................splitting hairs ?
  • That's what happens when you spend more time catering to pseudo-intellectuals with a history of the early 1950s in America vs. what the card actually is.

    Is it me, or does anyone else get annoyed having to spend 10 minutes rereading a description twice to try to find the two lines about condition that are intermingled among 60 lines of text?? Consider the description of the T206 Wagner SGC:


    -----------------------------------------------------
    "Cher," you say? How about "Sting" and "Bono," or even "Ah-nuld?" The variegated pantheon, of one-name wonders who have made their contributions to America's culture, is replete with immediately recognizable, single-word monikers. Within the exciting circle of the collectibles industry, however, only one short sequence of syllables can set a room abuzz, instantly dominate a conversation or grab every listener's attention with its mere utterance. Wagner. Think about it. "He bought a Wagner." "The collection's got a Wagner." "T206 complete set? How's the Wagner?" The short-printed, legendary relic of the Pirates' Hall of Famer is magnetic in its presence. Instantly, its addition confers unequaled legitimacy upon the holdings of its new owner. So maddeningly few of the cards reside among us, their small number tweaking the hobby's frustrations while simultaneously igniting its passion. Offered is a visually inspiring and properly authenticated specimen of this great rarity, graded 10 POOR 1 by SGC. Technically speaking, this compelling item is in the correct holder, but that's only part of its story. No grade can adequately describe the magic inherent in the Wagner portrait's gaze (seen here with full clarity), or the holistic mystique of its overall appearance. Yes, there are faults, taking the form of spaced, horizontal creases, a smudge or two, and the expected corner wear, but the item's intangibles are completely unbothered. Somehow, all of the piece's truly important features remain clear and attractive, and its Sweet Caporal reverse is legible in its dramatic, crimson-printed entirety. Other well-circulated copies of this fabled card have emerged in the hobby's past, and have received an equivalent numerical grade, but this Wagner is superior to virtually all of those challengers. Its surface faults' auspicious intervals have largely spared this T206's portrait area, its centering is admirable and its integrity of presentation is fabulous. Every card has its tales, and this one brings more to the table than most. Somehow, their cumulative traces only add to this wonderful collectible's wealth of personality. Here, waiting, is someone's future, prized possession, and it will be that person's own cherished, one-name treasure. And, as for, "Madonna?" Sorry, Babe. The old Dutchman's fame has yours beat, hands down.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    I count more discussion on Sonny and Cher and Madonna than on the card itself. Could we pay 5% less in buyer's premiums and fire a few of these guys with English MBAs??
  • qualitycardsqualitycards Posts: 2,811 ✭✭✭
    BEEFCAKE - Actually some of the descriptions are quite informative. I can learn about different card issues, players and memorabilia that I'm not too familiar with. Obviously you have to get past the fluff for the information...jay
  • kobykoby Posts: 1,699 ✭✭
    The description for the Wagner cardis the worst I have ever read. Usually I enjoy reading about the player achievements, the company, and even the historic background. The description for the Wagner card has absolutely nothing to do with the card.

    I would be much more interested in the Wagner card's pedigree:

    It would be extremely interesting to read the consigner's rational for cracking the card out of a PSA 1 POOR holder to convert it to an SGC 1 POOR holder;

    it is also interesting how this is the first and only SGC graded Wagner ever;

    and I find it educational to know that the only SGC Wagner receives the lowest grade awarded to any card.

    Unfortunately, the Mastro catalog does not go into any of this, and instead concentrates on useless rant about one name celebrities.
  • MantlefanMantlefan Posts: 1,079 ✭✭
    Mastro is usually pretty fair to all the Grading companies including SGC and GAI. I think it is implicit in the statement "none graded higher" to mean: "by that grading company". Just like GAI's "first graded" means "first graded by GAI".
    Frank

    Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
  • murcerfanmurcerfan Posts: 2,329 ✭✭
    "unequalled in the industry".

    so.... Mastro is saying that SGC is not a recognized part of the hobby/industry ?


    the finest of it's kind known to exist.

    so........it is "implied" that only PSA cards are known to exist ?


    To me, this is the same as Global putting "best known example in the industry" on thier label, not "first graded" ?
  • aconteaconte Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭
    murcerfan,

    They are trying to sell a product. How would it help if they mention that Sgc has graded one ex/mt too?
    This happens all the time with the red man cards. If I sold my 54 Psa 8 Spahn would they mention that there was one graded 88 by Sgc? No. And I don't think D.G. writes up every lot being sold by Mastro.
    Maybe you should crack yours out and go for a seven.

    As far as the Wagner card, that is the stupidest description I've ever read. I would not be surprised if
    eventually at least one other winds up in a Sgc holder. Maybe even Gai too. Heck the Sgc graded card
    could easily be crossed back to a Psa holder. This should make you feel much better Koby.

    aconte
  • shouldabeena10shouldabeena10 Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭
    Hey Murcer,

    I'm with you on this one!

    Why don't you e-mail them and see what they have to say... it would be interesting to see if they back pedal, or try to explain it away with the one grading company theory... especially since (as you mention) he graded the others too.

    Maybe throw the legal phrase "false advertising" in there just to shake um up a bit... and really press them about the "finest known example" quote.

    I mean.... They are supposed to be an independent auction house, representing the entire hobby... right? To me they come off a little to much like the "1 of 1 - RARE" eBay sellers that knowingly list false information to try and beef up the value of their cards.

    It's not a huge deal, in the sceme of things..... but you might as well have a little fun with them since they are disrespecting your former 1 of 1's.

    Mike



    "Vintage Football Cards" A private Facebook Group of 4000 members, for vintage football card trading, sales & auctions. https://facebook.com/groups/vintagefootball/
  • CWCW Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭
    > How about a couple "little white lies" and a "snow job" for christmas?

    Yeah, right... you're just using this as another opportunity to show
    off all your awesome '51's! image
  • murcerfanmurcerfan Posts: 2,329 ✭✭
    Someone who doesn't know any better will probably grossly overpay for this card.
    What do I really care ??, the "value" of mine will gladly tag along for the ride upwards.

    Any number of excuses based on innocence can be offered from the Mastro camp here or from their offices.......I have no desire to police any aspect of this hobby or "industry" if you must, but b.s. is b.s. in my book, no matter what you sprinkle on top or how many fancy words you use.

    I did think it worth sharing here and discussing (I really find it humorous), who knows...Maybe some of those lurking here in the shadows will think twice the next time they whip-up a batch of shinola to lay on us poor collectors image

    My guess is there are one or two raw examples nicer and a handful just as nice that have not been entombed yet:
    Frankly, It's a beautiful card but not really terribly "important".



  • VaYankVaYank Posts: 24 ✭✭
    Just a year ago, the very notion SGC would be included in a mastronet auction was ridiculed, but now SGC is has been included the last two times. Now we have the SGC Wagner. As a SGC collector, I am grateful to mastronet. No matter what the hammer price, no matter how unintelligible the description, no what happens after the hammer (even being crossed over), just having this specimen in a SGC slab being auctioned by Mastronet is a beautiful thing.
    Matthew Natale
    Alexandria, Va
    Vayank@aol.com

    Building a SGC 1977 Topps Set.
    Pay Pal Verified.
  • kobykoby Posts: 1,699 ✭✭


    << <i>Now we have the SGC Wagner. >>



    When you say "we" do you mean you own this SGC Wagner? I did not know you collected T206 cards. Must have traded in some of your 1977 topps.
  • murcerfanmurcerfan Posts: 2,329 ✭✭
    Hey wait a minute,
    ............Why wouldn't Mastro describe that Wagner (using the "I have my head in the sand" excuse) as "the finest known in the industry" and "unequaled by any others ever graded" ??

    who knows, some numb-nut might fall for it.

    Aconte - How bout I just crack you one instead image

    VaYank- I tend to agree that Mastro(or the consignors) is now catering to the various niches rather than holding fast to the PSA party line; SGC with pre-war (like those great D322's and the E90-1 near set) and GAI with high power star cards from the 50's and 60's. A few match-ups are kind of hard to understand, like the GAI 2 '33 Goudey LaJoie and the group of GAI Wilson Franks (right or wrong, those cards would go higher in PSA holders).




  • I agree with Dave on this - and I had the same exact thoughts when I saw this Gehrig. Also, as a point of further clarification - SGC has slabbed two Gehrig's as SGC 80 (=PSA 6) and ALSO one Gehrig as SGC 84 (=PSA 7).

    Now, I still love this card and I want it in my set (as an upgrade for my PSA 5), but as Dave points out, the fact that Mastro is pumping this thing as a one of a kind item will likely make the price go higher than it otherwise would.

    The bottom line is that it does not matter who you are buying from or what you are buying - the same old notion still applies - BUYER BEWARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • I agree with you Murcderfan on this one. This a a total misrepresentation by Mastro, and you have to know that they know this. Or easily could have known this. This is beyond sales puffery.

    But perhaps I am a little jaded after having bought two raw lots last auction from Mastro that were misrepresented worse than almost any Ebay auction I have been a part of.
    Ole Doctor Buck of the Popes of Hell

  • murcerfanmurcerfan Posts: 2,329 ✭✭
    Uh-oh..........I did not know a 7 had been graded (or another 6 for that matter).
    That makes it an even bigger lie. 13 CMAS cards have been graded higher than EX-MT by SGC.
    (excluding the mislabeled Bob Lemon)

    Guess I've had my head in the sand too image

    Thanks for bursting my little bubble Colt,
    You have made my day once again...........

    ..............Now, what's the latest pop. increase on the (my) Kiner ?
  • BasiloneBasilone Posts: 2,492 ✭✭


    << <i>BEEFCAKE - Actually some of the descriptions are quite informative. I can learn about different card issues, players and memorabilia that I'm not too familiar with. Obviously you have to get past the fluff for the information...jay >>



    Jay-

    I agree...Im in the process of reading every major auction catalog from 1992 to the present. There is an alot of information regarding both the card offered and the player pictured.
  • aro13aro13 Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭
    Pretty rare for Mastronet to make that kind of mistake. They often only list population report for the same company that has graded the card but the use of "unequalled in the industry", and "is the finest of it's kind known to exist" is way off.
  • jackstrawjackstraw Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭
    maybe mastronet didn't purchase a membership so they had no access to the population report. they figured that they didn't need to drop another 100 bucs to find a population of a card.
    Collector Focus

    ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
  • qualitycardsqualitycards Posts: 2,811 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I tend to agree that Mastro(or the consignors) is now catering to the various niches rather than holding fast to the PSA party line >>


    MURCERFAN - I don't think that its as much catering to other collectors, its more or less whats offered to them as consignments.
    Would they have turned down this Wagner a year or 2 ago soley because it was slabbed by SGC? I don't think so. It just wasn't offered at that time. Any high profile card by any major grading company means lots of $ generated, and at 15% from the buyer and 15% from the seller, its a no lose situation for Mastro, regardless of the hammer price...jay


  • << <i>Any high profile card by any major grading company means lots of $ generated, and at 15% from the buyer and 15% from the seller, its a no lose situation for Mastro, regardless of the hammer price...j >>



    Wow. 15 percent from the buyer and 15 percent from the seller.

    When its all said and done, very little money ends up in the pockets of the poor consignors, despite all those press clippings about high record prices achieved.

    After subtracting 15 percent and then another 15 percent, how can anyone make out with consignments to MAstro???
  • NickMNickM Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭
    koby - I'd bet the seller crossed it over because he thought he could get it into a SGC 20 (Fair) case. An SGC 20 would likely bring a substantial premium over a PSA 1.

    Oh, colt and murcerfan, way to get me drooling. image

    Nick
    image
    Reap the whirlwind.

    Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
  • BasiloneBasilone Posts: 2,492 ✭✭

    Man...everyone is piling on Mastro today....
  • GriffinsGriffins Posts: 6,076 ✭✭✭
    Why does anyone believe advertising copy? It's meant to sell, not to inform. The tools needed to dig up the facts are at our disposal, there is no excuse for not using them.

    Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's



  • << <i>Why does anyone believe advertising copy? It's meant to sell, not to inform. The tools needed to dig up the facts are at our disposal, there is no excuse for not using them. >>



    Griffins: When I buy raw cards with no pictures, I depend on what they say. From now on I guess I will have to go look at them in person. The cards I bought were described as "all grading Nm to NM/Mt or better", but not a single one is even close to a PSA 7. Most are 90/10 or worse centering.

    You had better believe that I will not be able to believe Mastro Descriptions again.
    Ole Doctor Buck of the Popes of Hell



  • << <i>koby - I'd bet the seller crossed it over because he thought he could get it into a SGC 20 (Fair) case. An SGC 20 would likely bring a substantial premium over a PSA 1. >>



    I doubt it - if you have a Wagner, I can assure you any grading company will inform you of the grade before cracking it out.
  • GriffinsGriffins Posts: 6,076 ✭✭✭
    Buckwheat-
    My comments on not believing advertising copy were based more upon my experiences working peripherally on ad campaigns rather than this particular auction catalog, and reflect my cynicism of any printed claims used when selling goods.
    I have found differences between a given grade at Mastronet Oser and the same grade at Mastronet Chicago auctions. And Lipset will give you another reality entirely. However, all of them have been more than willing to expand upon written catalog details if done so prior to the last few days of an auction, and I think it is ones duty to take advantage of this should you be bidding on an expensive lot, in order to reduce the chance of gross disapointment. I learned this only after several similar experiences as yours, and can certainly sympathize.


    Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's

  • NickMNickM Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭
    beefcake - two points in response: first, many of the differences between a Poor and a Fair card cannot be discerned while it is in a slab, which masks bad layering and can mask a hairline tear (making it look like a crease), such that a grading company might not be willing to make such a guarantee; and second, you are assuming that the seller asked for a guarantee, rather than asking "Do you think this might cross to a 20?"

    I can't say I appreciate SGC right now - I just received in the mail a '55 Bowman common in SGC 84 which has a miscut back. A sliver of the black bar of another card is visible on the right border of the card back. It doesn't affect eye appeal much, but it is clearly outside their published guidelines for the grade.

    Nick
    image
    Reap the whirlwind.

    Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
  • mikeschmidtmikeschmidt Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭
    Does anyone think that Mastro should have disclosed that the SGC 10 Wagner card was encapsulated by PSA as recently as two years ago, and that it sold in a PSA 1 holder during a major auction? It's funny -- when they sell the PSA 8 Wagner -- they talk about the highest $$$ card deals ever -- but when they sell this low-grade, formerly-PSA-graded SGC 10 Wagner, they do not even mention the last price point. Of course -- with a few Wagners hitting the hobby in the last 6-9 months, I think they probably realize that the final price realized will not be any new price record for a Wagner card.

    (except it will be a record for an SGC Wagner card...haha!)
    I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
  • BasiloneBasilone Posts: 2,492 ✭✭

    I do not think Mastro has to provide the history of a card..if it went from this holder to this holder, etc. I would not list such information unless I actually crossed it over myself.
  • Mastro is not obligated to provide information about the card history but it would certainly be more interesting than the dribble about Madonna and Cher.

    For important cards such as the Wagner, the Doyle and the TyCobb backs, Mastro is usually pretty good about giving us some text about the origin of the cards. In this case it is almost as if Mastro has something to hide.


  • You think they gave that Wagner an incredulous description, when they sold their first Action Comics #1 they gave it universal meaning!!
    No question, the more expensive the item, the more apt they are to talk about the alignment of the stars in the description. But they should be a little more thorough in their investigating pops.
    Give'em gas Davey!!!
  • mikeschmidtmikeschmidt Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭
    Murcerfan:

    Your post brings up a few conceptual points, going forward.

    I do agree with you that Mastro blew it in this instance -- however, down the road, I think there are some issues that are as yet unclear and perhaps need to be resolved.

    1) When a company or an auction hosue wants to assert a claim like "highest graded, ever", what are the relevant grading companies to include? Surely, PSA, SGC and GAI make the mark. But what about the rest? Should Beckett be included -- despite their penchant for grading sheet cut cards? What about SCD? Though it is clear who should not be included (e.g. PRO, Snaggletooth, GEM, etc.), where one precisely draws the line is somewhat problematic.

    2) Though GAI has graded some superb vintage specimens, they still lack a population report, despite talks of such for well over a year now. As such, it becomes increasingly problematic to asset, beyond any reasonable doubt, whether it is a highest-graded example, if you do not know what GAI may have graded in the first place. A minor point, perhaps, but one that will continue to be an issue while GAI grades and does not release a population report.

    3) Certainly there are some differences between the grading standards employed by all the major grading companies. Without specifically getting into a PSA vs. GAI vs. SGC debate -- they all put differing weights on different aspects of cards -- whether it be centering, corners, edges, gloss, etc. To that extent, then, calling one 6.5 better than, or equal to another company's 6 or 6.5 or 7 might not necessarily make a whole lot of sense. Just a thougth to consider...

    Bottom Line: Mastro screwed up here. Given Derek's affiliation with Mastro at this point -- it seems like this error would be too obvious to have been overlooked. Nevertheless, there should be at least some amendment made. And, going forward, I think it will become harder and harder to objectively state any card is the "best known", especially as long as there is restrictions on access to information.

    M
    I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
  • murcerfanmurcerfan Posts: 2,329 ✭✭
    To be sure, my post is not to attack nor call into question any particular Mastro employee... nor their honesty. I hold them in high regard for the most part.

    honestly..................I'm hearing far more question marks than anticipated.

    but let's stand up and be clear......there are no 'joe shomoos'.......'pros'.....nor ...'icky done too much blow''s involved.

    It'll be a white Christmas up here, with many simple joys.
    ................. "snowjobs" need not apply.

    edited to add: again the bottom line is that someone will "trust" a reknowned hobby dealer
    and pay $6k for a card worh abot $2,400. won't be me. won't be you...but some shmuck (so who should care).

    edited again: heck maybe it'll be loaf1240

  • schr1stschr1st Posts: 1,677 ✭✭
    The card was crossed-over at the National by BMW. What I think would be a real hoot would be for the winning bidder to get the card, and cross it back over into a PSA holder, just to be a jerk. If only I had the $... image




    << <i>The description for the Wagner cardis the worst I have ever read. Usually I enjoy reading about the player achievements, the company, and even the historic background. The description for the Wagner card has absolutely nothing to do with the card.

    I would be much more interested in the Wagner card's pedigree:

    It would be extremely interesting to read the consigner's rational for cracking the card out of a PSA 1 POOR holder to convert it to an SGC 1 POOR holder;

    it is also interesting how this is the first and only SGC graded Wagner ever;

    and I find it educational to know that the only SGC Wagner receives the lowest grade awarded to any card.

    Unfortunately, the Mastro catalog does not go into any of this, and instead concentrates on useless rant about one name celebrities. >>

    Who is Rober Maris?
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