Options
Question for Chinese coin experts
satootoko
Posts: 2,720
These are each nickle, cu-nickle, or some other "white" metal, about 2mm thick, approximately 2"x4", and 3-1/2 oz. or more. The dates are pre-World War I, when the Republic of China was the mainland government under Sun Yat Sen. I recognize some of the stampings as similar to common coins. What the heck are they
Roy
0
Comments
Any chances this is someone's idea of modern sycee? Perhaps test strikes of modern coins were sometimes handled like this? Could it be practice counterfeiting? Whatever they are, very interesting to see moderns represented like this. Have you purchased them?
is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato
They are interesting pieces, and I wouldn't mind seeing one in person, but I wouldn't pay much to do so (personally).
Just my two cash worth.
https://www.civitasgalleries.com
New coins listed monthly!
Josh Moran
CIVITAS Galleries, Ltd.
From the 'coinquestion' Yahoo group, Terry of GBIE Coins:
>'These all in now from Singapore. The ones in lighter shade are the ones I
won from the eBay vendor so I nicked & used his scans. The darker shade ones
are from 4 other pieces that I bought from him outright so I did my own scans &
put them up. 8 different pieces in all. Most are various types of dragon
designs. Still interesting, even if I don't know what they are all about. A
typical piece (The Big Head General is the one I picked up) weighs 3.7 ounces on
a postal scale. They are about 2 mm in thickness (a bit more than 1/16th
inch) and about 2 inches wide by about 4 inches high. I don't know what kind of
metal they are. Nickel alloy, nickel-steel or some type of 'white' metal.
>From write ups I've seen on eBay of similar items they seem to be from or of
circa 1911. So far, I have not seen two that are exactly alike. All seem to
be variations. I would hope that would tend to suggest that they are the real
deal. The seller hasn't had any more up since late October/early November.
I have seen some similar designs on round metal disks more closely resembling
coins, but I figured I'd stick with the plates. Does anyone have any more
information about these?'
World Coin & PM Collector
My Coin Info Pages <> My All Experts Profile
No clue. My first thought is that they were dies for counterfeits or fantasies, because the character outside the coin designs looks like a registration mark. But the lettering and designs are the wrong way. If you want to email me the scans I will put them up on two other e-mail groups and see what others think. I've included links for them, if you're interested:
One is Ancient Chinese Coins Yahoo group.
The other is the Charm.ru website mailing list.
They seem to have fairly large overlapping membership, but the second group is more international.
I suspect they are fantasies or fakes. Sycee ( General FAQ's , Pictures for Graphically Inclined and "More Info. Than You'll Ever Want on Sycee") have gotten very popular lately, and while they don't look like sycee, perhaps this is one way folks are capitalizing on white metal with stampings.
Interesting stuff.....
First, the stamp that is off to the side on each piece appears to be "shi", meaning "test", "trial", or "experiment". So maybe these are test pieces of some kind?????
I don't have my references with me so I am flying a bit by the seat of my pants....
#1 is dated 1909 (maybe 1908?).
#2 is dated 1911.
#3 has no date but I think these were produced around 1912, the first year of the republic.
#4, 5, 7, 8 are all from the Kuangxu Reign and were most likely produced sometimes during the period from 1902 to 1908 (assuming these are real).
#6 is the ever-popular fat man dollar, dated 1914. The fat man in question is the first president of the republic, Yuan Shikai.
Only #3 and #6 date from the republic. The others are all date to the final years of the Qing Dynasty.
If memory serves me correctly, Sun Yatsen headed the republic for something like two weeks or less before he handed it over to Yuan for he had a far greater power base. It was felt that he was one of the few people capable of holding the new state together.
For better or for worse, those are my two cents.
<<<If memory serves me correctly, Sun Yatsen headed the republic for something like two weeks or less before he handed it over to Yuan for he had a far greater power base. It was felt that he was one of the few people capable of holding the new state together. >>>
Corollary:
Yuan was also the man that controlled the military and some historians argue that since Yuan was a very ambitious man, he set himself up as Emperor soon after he became president, he would have taken power even if Sun did not hand it over to Yuan and Sun was trying to avoid a civil war.
Yuan's restoration attempt in 1915-1916 was actually supported by such notables as Kang Youwei who felt that the fracturing of the state could only be halted through an imperial presence. There was another resotorationist movment in 1917(?) with the same idea.
What sort of histor do you study, if this is not too far oof topic for everyone. Maybe we should take it to the Open Forum, even though things have been a little rough over there as of late.
Young, E., 1977. The Presidency of Yuan Shih-K¡¯ai: Liberalism and Dictatorship in Early Republican China. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press.
If you want more titles, I can give you the reading list for my qualifiying exams.
I just posted these picture links to the Ancient_Chinese_Coins group Sunday night. I'll let you know on the response. I may look into the individual coins in my reference books, but it sounds like your memory is pretty good.
Modern China Field Reading List
Anderson, B., 1991. Imagined Communities. London: Verso.
Barlow, T., 1997a. ¡°Introduction: On ¡®Colonial Modernity¡¯¡± in Formations of Colonial Modernity in East Asia. T. Barlow, ed. Durham: Duke University Press.
----------, 1997b. ¡°Colonialism¡¯s Career in Postwar China Studies¡± in Formations of Colonial Modernity in East Asia. T. Barlow, ed. Durham: Duke University Press.
Chatterjee, P., 1993. The Nation and Its Fragments: Colonial and Post-Colonial Histories. Princeton: Princeton University Press.
Clunas, C., 1997. Pictures and Visuality in Early Modern China. Princeton: Princeton University Press.
Dirlik, A., 1996. ¡°Reversals, Ironies, Hegemonies: Notes on the Contemporary Historiography of Modern China¡± in Modern China 22(3): 243-284.
----------, 2001. ¡°Postmodernism and Chinese History¡± in boundary 2 28(3): 19-60.
Duara, P., 1995. Rescuing History from the nation: Questioning Narratives of Modern China. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Edmonds, R., 1999. The People¡¯s Republic of China After 50 Years. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
Fitzgerald, J., 1996. Awakening China: Politics, Culture, and Class in the Nationalist Revolution. Stanford: Stanford University Press.
Gellner, E., 1983. Nations and Nationalism. New York: New York University Press.
Goodman, B., 2001. ¡°Improvisations on a Semicolonial Theme, or, How to Read a Celebration of Transnational Urban Community¡± in The Journal of Asian Studies 59(4): 889-926.
Hamash ita, T., 1997. ¡°The Intra-regional System in East Asia in Modern Times¡± in Networks: Japan and Asia. Ithaca: Cornell University Press.
Hamilton, G., 1999. Cosmopolitan Capitalists. Seattle: University of Washington Press.
Howland, D. D., 1996. Borders of Chinese Civilization: Geography and History at Empire¡¯s End. Duke University Press, Durham.
Jones, A., 2001. Yellow Music: Media Culture and Colonial Modernity in the Chinese Jazz Age. Durham: Duke University Press.
Laitinen, K., 1990. Chinese Nationalism in the Late Qing Dynasty: Zhang Binglin as an Anti-Manchu Propagandist. London: Curzon Press.
Link, P. et al, eds., 2002. Popular China: Unofficial Culture in a Globalizing Society. Lanham: Rowman Littlefield.
Liu, X., 2000. In One¡¯s Own Shadows. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Lee, L., 1999. Shanghai Modern: The Flowering of a New Urban Culture in China, 1930-1945.Cambridge: Harvard University Press.
Lu, H., 2000. Beyond the Neon Lights. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Pomeranz, K., 2000. The Great Divergence: Europe, China, and the Making of the Modern World Economy. Princeton: Princeton University Press.
Schwarcz, V., 1986. The Chinese Enlightenment: Intellectuals and the Legacy of the May Fourth movement of 1919. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Shih, S., 2001. The Lure of the Modern. Berkeley: University of California.
Tang, Xiaobing, 1996. Global Space and the Nationalist Discourse of Modernity: The Historical Thinking of Liang Qichao. Stanford: Stanford University Press.
Wong, R.B., 1997. China Transformed. Ithaca: Cornell University Press.
Wong, Young-tsu, 1989. Search for Modern Nationalism: Zhang Binglin and Revolutionary China, 1869-1936. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
Yeh, W., 2000. Becoming Chinese. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Zhang, Y., ed., 1999. Cinema and Urban Culture in Shanghai, 1922-1943. Stanford: Stanford University Press.
This is not meant to be an authoritative list. It's just the stuff that I read and have already forgotten
YUAN
Dardess, J., 1973. Conquerors and Confucians: Aspects of Political Change in Late Yuan China. New York: Columbia University Press.
Kahn, P., 1984. The Secret History of the Mongols: the Origin of Chinghis Khan. San Francisco: North Point Press.
Langlois, J., 1981. China Under Mongol Rule. Princeton: Princeton University Press.
Rossabi, M., 1988. Khubilai Khan: His Life and Times. Berkeley: University ofCalifornia Press.
MING
Politics and Government
Dreyer, E., 1982. Early Ming China: A Political History, 1335-1435. Stanford: Stanford University Press.
Farmer, E., 1995. Zhu Yuanzhang and Early Ming Legislation: The Reordering of Chinese Society Following the End of Mongol Rule. Leiden: E.J. Brill.
Hucker, C., 1966. The Censorial System of Ming China. Stanford: Stanford University Press.
Spence, J. and J. Wills, eds., 1979. From Ming to Ch¡¯ing: Conquest, Region, and Continuity in Seventeenth Century China. New Haven: Yale University Press.
Struve, L., 1984. The Southern Ming, 1644-1662. New Haven: Yale University Press.
Economy
Atwell, W., 1982. ¡°International Bullion Flows and the Chinese Economy, ca. 1530-1650¡± in Past and Present 95: 68-90.
Huang, R., 1974. Taxation and Government Finance in Sixteenth-Century Ming China. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.
Von Glahn, R., 1996. Fountain of Fortune: Money and Monetary Policy in China, 1000-1700. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Society
Clunas, C., 1991. Superfluous Things: Material Culture and Social Status in Early Modern China. Urbana: University of Illinois Press.
Dardess, J., 1983. Confucianism and Autocracy: Professional Elites in the Founding of the Ming Dynasty. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Dennerline, J., 1979. The Chia-ting Loyalists: Confucian Leadership and Social Change in Seventeenth-Century China. New haven: Yale University Press.
Elman, B., 2000. A Cultural history of Civil Service Examinations in late Imperial China. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Tong, J., 1991. Disorder Under Heaven: Collective Violence in the Ming Dynasty. Stanford: Stanford University Press.
Thought
Ching, J., 1976. To Acquire Wisdom. New York, Columbia University Press.
Handlen, J., 1983. Action in Late Ming Thought. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Wang, Yang-ming, 1963. Instructions for Practical living and Other Neo-Confucian Writings. Trans. Wing-tsit Chan. New York: Columbia University Press.
QING
The Manchu Question
Crossley, P., 1990. Orphan Warriors: Three Manchu Generations and the End of the Qing World. Princeton: Princeton University Press.
----------, 1997. The Manchus. London: Blackwell Publishers.
----------, 1999. A Translucent Mirror: History and Identity in Qing Imperial Ideology. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Elliot, M., 2001. The Manchu Way: The Eight Banners and Ethnic Identity in Late Imperial China. Stanford: Stanford University Press.
Rawski, E., 1998. The Last Emperors: A Social History of Qing Imperial Institutions. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Rhoads, J.M., 2000. Manchus and Han: Ethnic Relations and Political Power in Late Qing and Early Republican China. Seattle: University of Washington Press.
Foreign Relations
Fairbank, J., ed., 1968. The Chinese World Order: Traditional China¡¯s Foreign Relations. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.
----------, 19XX. Trade and Diplomacy.
Hevia, J., 1995. Cherishing Men from Afar: Qing Guest Ritual and the McCartney Embassy of 1793. Durham: Duke University Press.
Kessler, L., 1976. K¡¯ang-hsi and the Consolidation of Ch¡¯ing Rule, 1661-1684. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Kim, Key-hiuk, 1981. The Last Phase of the East Asian World Order: Korea, Japan, and the Chinese Empire, 1860-1882.
Lensen, G.A., 1982. Balance of Intrigue: International Rivalry in Korea and Manchuria, 1884-1899. Tallahassee: University Presses of Florida.
Lin, T.C., 1935. ¡°Li Hung-chang: His Korea Policies, 1870-1885¡± in The Chinese Social and Political Science Review, 19(2): 202-233.
Treat, P., 1934. ¡°China and Korea, 1885-1894¡± in Political Science Quarterly, 49(4): 506-543.
Will, P. et al, 1991. Nourish the People: The State Civilian Granary System in China, 1650-1850. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press.
Wills, J., 1988. ¡°Tribute, Defensiveness, and Dependency: Uses and Limits of Some Basic Ideas about Mid-Ch¡¯ing Foreign Relations¡± in American Neptune, 48: 225-229.
Wright, M., 1958. ¡°The Adaptability of Ch¡¯ing Diplomacy: The Case of Korea¡± in The Journal of Asian Studies, 17(3): 363-381.
Qing Administration
Bartlett, B., 1991. Monarchs and Ministers: The Grand Council in Mid-Ch¡¯ing China. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Chang, Chung-li, 1970. The Chinese Gentry: Studies in Their Role in Nineteenth Century Chinese Society. Seattle: University of Washington Press.
Wakeman, Frederick and Carolyn Grant, 1975. Conflict and Control in Late Imperial China. Berkeley: University of California Press.
----------, 1985. The Great Enterprise: The Manchu Reconstruction of Imperial Order in Seventeenth Century China. 2 vols. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Watt, John, 1970. The District Magistrate in Late Imperial China. New York: Columbia University Press.
Zelin, M., 1985. The Magistrate¡¯s Tael: Rationalizing Fiscal Reform in Eighteenth Century China. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Qing Thought
Chow, Kaiwing, 1994. The Rise of Confucian Ritualism in Late Imperial China. Stanford: Stanford University Press.
Elman, B., 1984. From Philosophy to Philology: Intellectual and Social Aspects of Change in Late Imperial China. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.
----------, 1990. Classicism, Politics, and Kinship. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Guy, R. K., 1987. The Emperor¡¯s Four Treasuries. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.
Huang, Chin-shing, 1995. Philosophy, Philology, and Politics in Eighteenth-Century China. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Rebellion
Cohen, Paul, A., 1997. History in Three Keys: The Boxers as Event, Experience, and Myth. New York: Columbia University Press.
Esherick, J., 1987. The Origins of the Boxer Uprising. Berkeley, University of California Press.
Kuhn, P., 1980. Rebellion and Its Enemies in Late Imperial China. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.
Naquin, S., 1976. Millenarian Revolution in China: The Eight Trigrams Uprising of 1813. New Haven: Yale University Press.
Perry, L., 1980. Rebels and Revolution in North China. Stanford: Stanford University Press.
Shih, V., 1972. The Taiping Ideology. Seattle: University of Washington Press.
Wagner, R., 1982. Reenacting the Heavenly Vision: The Role of Religion in the Taiping Rebellion. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Wakeman, F., ¡°Rebellion and Revolution: The Study of Popular Movements in Chinese History¡± in Journal of Asian Studies, 36:2.
Self-Strengthening and Socio-Political Change in the Late Nineteenth Century
Bastid-Brugiere, M., ? ¡°Currents of Social Change¡± in Cambridge History of China, vol. 11.
Chang Hao, 1971. Liang Ch¡¯i-ch¡¯ao and Intellectual Transition in China. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.
Chen, J., 1972. Yuan Shih-k¡¯ai. Stanford: Stanford University Press.
Chu, S.C. and Kwang-ching Liu, eds., 1994. Li Hung-chang and China¡¯s Early Modernization. London: M.E. Sharpe.
Kamachi, N., 1981. Reform in China: Huang Tsun-hsien and the Japanese Model Cambridge: Harvard
University Press.
Kwong, L., 1984. A Mosaic of the Hundred Days: Personalities, Politics, and Ideas of 1898. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.
MacKinnon, S.R., 1980. Power and Politics in Late Imperial China: Yuan Shi-kai in Beijing and Tianjin, 1901-1908. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Rankin, M., 1986. Elite Activism and Political Transformation in China. Stanford: Stanford University Press.
Rowe, W., ? ¡°The Public Sphere in China¡± in Cambridge History of China, vol. 10
Spector, S., 1964. Li Hung-chang and the Huai Army. Seattle¡± University of Washington Press.
Tang, Xiaobing, 1996. Global Space and the Nationalist Discourse of Modernity: The Historical Thinking of Liang Qichao. Stanford University Press, Stanford.
Wright, M., 1967. The Last Stand of Chinese Conservatism: The T¡¯ung Chih Restoration of 1862-1874. Stanford: Stanford University Press.
1911 Revolution
Esherick, J., 1976. Reform and Revolution in China: The 1911 Revolution in Hunan and Hubei. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Young, E., 1977. The Presidency of Yuan Shih-K¡¯ai: Liberalism and Dictatorship in Early Republican China. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press.
These were the readings I did for Late Imperial China (Yuan, Ming, Qing). Again, this is by no means a complete list but it does cover a fair amount of ground. The readings are skewed in favor of things I am into so there is plenty left off the list. The quality of these works, as well as thw quality of the works on the modern China list, varies quite a bit and there are plenty of conflicting interpretations, just to keep you alert.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
<FONT face="Courier New">
These are dies to make wax castings to make 'lost wax' castings of the original coins. Quite nice ones I might add. Care to sell one or more of them?
</FONT>
I wonder if he collects them, or if he wants to go into the counterfeiting business? ;-)
I'll let you know if anyone else comments.
Thanks for the reading list!
<< <i>These are dies to make wax castings to make 'lost wax' castings of the original coins. >>
Makes sense to me.