Franklins...Soon to get much more expensive

Ogden

There aren't many series that haven't greatly increased in value and this is one of the few series still affordable in high grades. I don't think that will last much longer though. More and more people are discovering Benjamin and I think it's a great investment as well as being able to complete the entire series in a high grade. I welcome any comments.

Ogden

LucyBop

I'll tell you this much, I've had some new customers come oughta nowhere and my Frankies have been flying off of the shelves!!!

FC57Coins

We'll get flamed for sure but so beit...

I've been saying the same of Franklins for the past year or so - This series will come into it's own inspite of the fact that the grey sheet doesn't carry prices for FBL Franklins. A lot of dealers are still not very knowledgeable of the series - but I've been noticing more and more dealers carrying stocks of Franklins (Yes even PINNACLE RARITIES!!!) In due time people will see that high grade (MS65 and above Franklins) are moderately to difficult to locate, and in due time will command much more respect than the series currently has.

Frank

Try finding one of these bad boys in a mint set!

Russ

Even ugly has it's time.

Russ, NCNE

LucyBop

Bann'd!

MacCoin

I like my Franklins on bills

bearcave

I agree....nice coins can be had and not to expensive.




FBL isn't showing in pics but they are there!

Wingsrule

I didn't know Frankies came without cameo...

stman

<< <i>A lot of dealers are still not very knowledgeable of the series >>



Frank, Dude, Are you trippin? made me fall out of my rocking chair.

I haven't been flamed in a few days, so I'm due. Perhaps these dealers that "aren't very knowledgeable" actually ARE, and just don't care about them. Not knocking what people collect here serious. But Franklin's are NO sleepers and many collectors have had a hand in the series and just flat out moved on.

BTW, this is coming from someone that almost 20 years ago just about completed a set of these bald headed dudes. Blast white... yup, at the time the whiter the better. Before slabs were created too.

wondercoin

Ogden: I truly enjoy the Franklin series (and have a nice high grade collection myself) , but, I personally do not see higher prices anytime soon ON ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE POP 1-3 MEGA-COINS. Yes, a coin like the pop 1/0 1959(d) PCGS-MS67FBL I recently slabbed and placed last month may (or may not) very well see appreciation IMHO. But, in general, supplies heavily outstrip demand at this time for virtually all other Franklins in the series (again, other than pop 1-3 coins, which represent a tiny minority of the product on the market obviously). It would probably take most of 2004 to greatly impact that reality. While I do not personally see prices dropping too far from here (heck, they have essentially "crashed" off prices a year or two ago for most of the series), I equally do not see prices rising much at all for the series for one simple reason - AGAIN, SUPPLY GREATLY OUTSTRIPS DEMAND. Too many collectors quit the series this year coupled with far too many coins being "made".

For example, I know of a 1952(d) PCGS-MS66FBL Franklin that has not moved at $1600 for months now - if the market had any serious strength that coin would have been gobbled up almost instantly. The super key date 1950(d) in PCGS-MS66FBL didn't hit the reserve at under $5,000 in a recent Heritage sale and a saw on ebay a 1960(p) in PCGS-MS66FBL that couldn't even obtain an opening bid of $2,000 recently. Hardly anyone (other than a couple asute dealers) even look at the complete raw collections of Franklins that get offered regularly at major auction. They often sell for next to nothing, great coins get slabbed from them and can be marketed at even more discounted prices because their owners are into the coins for next to nothing. In recent auctions, there are often 3 or 4 of the same semi-key MS66FBL available (mostly at rock bottom prices) and, generally 25%-50% even see a bid above the cheap reserve. I am even aware of a recent situation where one of the very scarce brilliant Franklins in MS66FBL (but a common date in toned) which last was advertised on a major Franklin dealer's website for around $4,000 and the collector who had the coin had paid a couple grand to own perhaps the only other brilliant coin known for that date in MS66FBL) was quoted "$75" by a major coin dealer as the best price they would pay for the coin. Yes, the dealer was simply making an honest mistake in the offer (not intentionally trying to rip the coin), but, if the Franklin market was the least bit "hot", the mistake would have probably never happened, because the dealer would have only had to make a call or two and the coin would have been sold. I could go on and on, but you see why I believe the Franklin market has been quite cold for quite some time on anything other than super pop tops and 53(s) key date coins.

And, incidently, I have personally bought (to retain for now) more Franklins in the past year than perhaps in the 3-4 years previous combined. I may honestly state that IMHO the market is ice cold, but, that does not mean I do not enjoy buying all these great Franklins at the "rock bottom" prices many of the coins are currently selling for.

Wondercoin

FC57Coins

<< <i>Franklin's are NO sleepers and many collectors have had a hand in the series and just flat out moved on >>



Many collectors may indeed have had a hand in the series and moved on - but did they have a hand in the series with an eye for the higher end pieces. My comments comes from observing the offerings of many dealers at the last 4 or 5 shows I've been to. Many dealers are oblivious to "real" prices on Franklins - either relying strictly on CU prices, or being outright stumped. Granted, the shows that I've been to have been medium to small in size, but generally speaking, I find that many dealers are just not atuned to the Franklin market, and they're either giving away potential gems, or they're asking for moon money where no moon exists.

LucyBop

I hit alot of the little coin shows in the West... I'll say without a shred of a doubt alot of these little dealers are clueless about these coins..

Heh Heh, much to my benefit.

stman

<< <i>or they're asking for moon money where no moon exists. >>



I find that to be true anywhere you go, with any kind of coin for that matter.

FC57Coins

Mitch:

While I agree with you that the Franklin market has cooled off in 2003, I don't agree with your assessment based on MS66FBL and MS67FBL coins. At this point in the evolution of this series, those are risky coins. The coins that you're talking about have, in the recent past gone for moon money, but because of the fact that there is still the possibility of making yet another MS66FBL or another MS67FBL, the risks are too great at this time to go out and pay $4000 for a coin that might only be worth $3000 after the next one is made. I think this has in some ways cooled off the market. We don't know to what degree the rise in the pops of Franlins over the past few years is real, artificial (due to crackouts) or a mixture of both. At this point I see the Franklin market correcting itself and re-evaluating which coins are in fact true rarities and which are not. There has been a lot of hyping in Franklins which drove prices up for a while, but the market will re-adjust and proceed from there.

In 2006 we'll see commemoratives come into play because of the bicentenial of Franklin's birth. At that time we may see a resurgence in the market, and by that time we may also finally be able to gauge how many more gems are out there to be made. Maybe by this time coins such as the ones that you have mentioned can establish a true foothold in the market and be viewed as less speculative commodities. In the meantime you're absolutely right - there are some bargains to be had out there, and astute collectors would do well to take advantage of these.

Frank

FC57Coins

<< <i><< << or they're asking for moon money where no moon exists. >>



I find that to be true anywhere you go, with any kind of coin for that matter.. >> >>



Less so with coins for which there are stablished prices and a stablished market for them Stman. The modern, and quasimodern market is still in flux as I see it. Coins such as Franklins need a little more time to establish themselves. More dealers have to become players in the field, and collectors have to establish boundaries for the prices. As I mentioned above, I think the Franklin market - which at this time in my opinion is one of the few that's actually driven more by collectors than by dealers, is taking a sit back and wait attitude. Once the dust settles and we give time for the few remaining raw gems to be discovered, then the market will take it's rightful direction.

wondercoin

"While I agree with you that the Franklin market has cooled off in 2003, I don't agree with your assessment based on MS66FBL and MS67FBL coins"

Frank: IMHO, it is all "trickle down" economics. If the MS66FBL market is sharply down, as I suggested, you can rest assured the MS65FBL market suffers somewhat as well. After all, if I can possible buy a 60(p) in MS66FBL for roughly $1500 (not saying I can as I simply have not tried), I don't want an MS65FBL for what it was trading at 3 years ago either. If I can locate a 52(s) in MS66FBL for thousands less than last year, I have no interest in an MS65FBL coin for $750-$1000, etc. Also, as the MS66FBL's have come crashing down, more and more collectors and dealers have upgraded into those coins for inventory and collections, thereby freeing up additional tons of MS65FBL product. On a cheaper scale, if I can buy common date MS66FBL coins for $75-$100/coin, I sure have no interest in MS65FBL coins at $40 or $50 anymore.

Hey, just 2 cents. We are in total agreement that there has possibly been no better time (in a long time) for smart, strategic purchases of "high quality for the grade" Franklins than now.

Wondercoin

foodude

This is one of the series of the future. Save for the '53-S in FBL (MS66 is realistically the best that can be done and there is a good supply of nice ones to choose from). Why is this a good series? Here are some reasons:

(1) The coins are relatively large, and many people like larger coins rather than smaller coins.
(2) The whole set is silver; many people like that feature too.
(3) For just into the five figures, a very nice 65FBL set (except for a 66 '53-S) can be put together. In addition, a few 66FBLs of some of the more common dates can be added for a few hundred more dollars. A nice 64FBL (again except for the '53-S) can be put together for a few thousand dollars. Or, if you have a budget between these two ranges, a nice 65/65FBL set can be put together.
(4) There are only 35 coins, so a slabbed set fits into two PCGS (or NGC boxes), with room for more more coins to boot.

So back to the orignal question, yes, they should soon get more expensive as collectors discover, or rediscover what a great collectable series this truly is (and don't let some of those ugly, road tar examples fool you, if you ar patient you can find some nice toners to go with brillant examples you find.

FC57Coins

Mitch:

I may not be willing to spend $5000 for a 1950D MS66FBL Franklin, but I would spend $500 for a very nice MS65FBL example

I may not be willing to spend $15,000 for a 1961P or a 1962P in MS66FBL, but I would go $900-$1200 for a properly graded MS65FBL

I may not be willing to spend $15,000 for a 1953S in MS65FBL, but I might spring $350 for a dazzling MS66.

The point that I was trying to make with my comment is that at those levels you're talking too much speculation - at the MS65FBL and below, the market is more stable - more examples have been made and now you have a better feel for what the coins are really worth. Will more be made? Certainly, but the possibilities of the pops doubling tripling for certain coins is less likely than with others. Case in point. When I bought my 1952S it had a population of 26. Today it has a population of 33 - that's a 27 percent increase - I lost out on that one. However, the 1961P and 1962P have only gone up by maybe 10% and are still in the very low 100's, and I don't think the 1963 has moved much in the last year at all - this tells me that these coins are indeed hard to find. So, for the money, I'd rather take a chance on the lower grade, which still affords me a very good coin, as opposed to a high grade coin which could fluctuate wildly still.

Frank

wondercoin

"and I don't think the 1963 has moved much in the last year at all - this tells me that these coins are indeed hard to find. So, for the money, I'd rather take a chance on the lower grade, which still affords me a very good coin, as opposed to a high grade coin which could fluctuate wildly still."

Frank: Good point, but, of course 63(P) Franklins in 65FBL are not a "lower grade" coin in anyone's book. They are about as good as it gets

Wondercoin

stman

Frank, I would agree the high end 66-67 FBL pieces would probably be sure to rise. And I also feel much of it will be due to the registry competition.

I could also agree they are pretty cheap these days for non-fbl. If I were to collect these again that's where my money would be with the non-fbl. To each his own but I just can't justify big premiums for the FBL Franklin's. Of course I really can't see the same for full band mercs as well. Mainly, and I may be wrong here, but it can get these designations without actually being a full struck coin in other areas. If they indeed had to be fully struck in other areas I could understand all the hype of them.

But, what I like to collect and end up paying hefty premiums you may not care for. So I say to each his own and enjoy!!!!

DCAMFranklin

Years and years of history have disproved your theory, Ogden.

FC57Coins

Stman:

You do have a very valid point with regard to MS65's and 66's in non-fbl. In most cases they can be had for a song, and in some cases they come close to the quality of an FBL. Have FBL's been hyped? No more than other coins I'd say. In order to enjoy Franklins you have to be something of a lunatic about them. If you're going to spend top money for these things then you'd better enjoy them and appreciate them to the hilt - because there's a likelyhood that you may not recover a lot of your money. When I set out on my little Franklin adventure I figured it was the last set of large coins which could be collected in top condition without going to the poor house. For the most part I was successful in accomplishing my goal, and I genuinely like these things. I've gotten to know my coins, their nuances, the way they were struck, and I enjoy looking at them for these reasons. In the future, would I go out and try to put together a top of the line collection just to say I did it? Probably not. I've done that already - now my collecting is branching out into other areas and that phase for me is done. I might tackle another collection with the same zeal - but I haven't found one yet that called to me like Frankies did. Oh well - as you said - collect what you enjoy - that's the best advice you can give anyone.

As for DCAM's remark - all I can say is that you can't judge the market by looking in the rear view mirror - time will tell whether Ogden or you are right - but I think Franklins will one day enjoy a stature similar, though not the same, as Barbers.

stman

Frank, one point I'd strongly disagree with you is the point of dealers charging moon money when there is no moon. I mentioned that goes for anywhere and any kind of coin for that matter... you mentioned they charge moon money moreso when there isn't established pricing.

I've been to a few shows myself, and even when there is established pricing, as you know nice coins sell for more money. Well, how about CC DMPL Morgan's? anything decent is 2X sheet and going to 3X. How bout Barbers, Bust material and the list goes on. It's been fun

FC57Coins

Good point. You do see that every once in a while. I saw one dealer trying to hawk what was obviously a prooflike Columbian in a PR63 NTC holder. Oh well - you'll always see those things at shows. I guess it goes back to the old addage - knowledge is power.

stman

<< <i>Good point. You do see that every once in a while >>



Once in a while? LOL.... Perhaps they are much more ethical in your neck of the woods. Come out west my friend and then the fun begins.

BTW, My sig line says what it does for good reason.

Merc

I'm one of the collectors who bought Franklins but have now moved on. 5 years ago, several dates were rare in MS65 FBL. Now , the populations in high grade have increased dramatically. For some years such as a 1960-D FBL only MS65's were known. Now there are MS66 FBL. I became tired of the series and did not see the prices going up anytime soon so I sold almost all of them. Luckly, I even made a profit selling them.

michael

I may not be willing to spend $5000 for a 1950D MS66FBL Franklin, but I would spend $500 for a very nice MS65FBL example

I may not be willing to spend $15,000 for a 1961P or a 1962P in MS66FBL, but I would go $900-$1200 for a properly graded MS65FBL

I may not be willing to spend $15,000 for a 1953S in MS65FBL, but I might spring $350 for a dazzling MS66.

The point that I was trying to make with my comment is that at those levels you're talking too much speculation - at the MS65FBL and below, the market is more stable - more examples have been made and now you have a better feel for what the coins are really worth. Will more be made? Certainly, but the possibilities of the pops doubling tripling for certain coins is less likely than with others. Case in point. When I bought my 1952S it had a population of 26. Today it has a population of 33 - that's a 27 percent increase - I lost out on that one. However, the 1961P and 1962P have only gone up by maybe 10% and are still in the very low 100's, and I don't think the 1963 has moved much in the last year at all - this tells me that these coins are indeed hard to find. So, for the money, I'd rather take a chance on the lower grade, which still affords me a very good coin, as opposed to a high grade coin which could fluctuate wildly still.

You do have a very valid point with regard to MS65's and 66's in non-fbl. In most cases they can be had for a song, and in some cases they come close to the quality of an FBL. Have FBL's been hyped? No more than other coins I'd say. In order to enjoy Franklins you have to be something of a lunatic about them. If you're going to spend top money for these things then you'd better enjoy them and appreciate them to the hilt - because there's a likelyhood that you may not recover a lot of your money. When I set out on my little Franklin adventure I figured it was the last set of large coins which could be collected in top condition without going to the poor house. For the most part I was successful in accomplishing my goal, and I genuinely like these things. I've gotten to know my coins, their nuances, the way they were struck, and I enjoy looking at them for these reasons. In the future, would I go out and try to put together a top of the line collection just to say I did it? Probably not. I've done that already - now my collecting is branching out into other areas and that phase for me is done. I might tackle another collection with the same zeal - but I haven't found one yet that called to me like Frankies did. Oh well - as you said - collect what you enjoy - that's the best advice you can give anyone.

frank



I THINK frank is saying in general that within the franklin series there are great coins that have special qualities and currently there are great buys not all franklins are great buys but the ones he mentioned as per the above as great buys if you can find then with great eye appeal in ms65 fbl or ms65 66 non fbl but ever so close!! and REALLY NICE FOR THE GRADE

for me

many ms65 66 earlier dates especially so the s mints graded by ngc in 65 66 non fbl line that are solid for the grade and since ngc is harder on fbl than pcgs are close to fbl if not fbl in ngc ms65 66 non fbl designated holders these for me are super great buys again if they have great eye appeal

and of course any of these franklins that have monster color are to me the ultimate coin to buy in the franklin series!

remember the photo of the coin mark feld posted on here a month ago?? the ngc ms66 * star 1954 s franklin

the owner of this coin showed it to me and in this ngc holder it is a solid ms66 on the obverse and 66+ reverse and sooooooo close to fbl it hurts and for me a fbl coin and the color is to die for

coins like this coin would be a great buy currently with franklins even if you had to pay all the money to get it in this current franklin market and there would be many buyers and

for me

the coin has no downside whatsoever


michael

MadMonk

I've been saying this for 25 years. They have done spectacularly well considering the series, and I still say the day will come when people who bought high grade, colorful pieces, will have no regrets.

ksteelheader

A good read.

PawPaul

great post to bring up -

and have they gotten much more expensive?

no they have not ; in fact over the years they have traded for less and less .........

I , like madmonk , have been waiting more then two decades for Franklin's to come into their own .

It never has happened and I wonder if it ever will.

Wondercoin 's comments are spot on for the most part , he know's what he's talking about

ksteelheader

That is why I bumped this up.

19Lyds

Reading the title and recalling PawPaul's posts, I just knew this was a resurrected thread!

PawPaul

raised from the dead just in time for Halooween !

ultimatecameo

The Franklins have many similarities to the Morgan series. The coins are very available in low grade for almost any date, but when you go up the ladder, rarity increases dramatically.

My primary concern at this point are the constantly vascillating FBL standards - what is FBL one year is not the next. A reasonable, realistic standard has to be established, as much as humanly possible. I will have pictures in the Franklin/Kennedy book addressing the FBL issue. There will be no final word on this subject. But it is the same with any series.....what was a DMPL Morgan one year, may not be so graded today.

At the end of the day, focusing on eye-appeal as well as grade is the best insurance policy when it comes to buying mint state Franklin halves. Most examples in MS 65, and even MS 66, are not terribly attractive. Most 66's exhibit mottled toning. The attractive pieces are getting harder and harder to find. A beautifully toned Franklin is many times rarer than a beautifully toned Morgan - yet the Franklin still sells for a fraction of the price! I could find at least 10 1881-S MS 65 Morgan dollars at a major show with fabulous color selling for $1,000 or more. Trying to find a single spectacular color toned Franklin of any date, at any price, is a challenge!

Rick Tomaska

lcoopie

when is the new Franklin book due?

ultimatecameo

lcoopie

The draft, with all the color pictures, etc. are due at Whitman April 1. I don't know how long it takes them to finish things, but I imagine it would be scheduled for fall 2010 release.

Rick

melvin289

<< <i>I like my Franklins on bills


Me too!

Ron

TwoSides2aCoin

It's never a bad time to take up the hobby of kings, regardless of the series.

bushmaster8

<< <i>At the end of the day, focusing on eye-appeal as well as grade is the best insurance policy when it comes to buying mint state Franklin halves.
Rick Tomaska >>



And you can take THAT to the bank!

lcoopie

<< <i>lcoopie

The draft, with all the color pictures, etc. are due at Whitman April 1. I don't know how long it takes them to finish things, but I imagine it would be scheduled for fall 2010 release.

Rick >>



thanks Rick for the update

wondercoin

While I felt pretty confident about what I wrote 6 years ago, it simply resulted in me putting a halt to buying more coins for my personal Franklin collection (which wasn't easy!) I just couldn't bring myself to the point of selling the collection I had put together back then (I just enjoy the coins too much). In that regard, I probably should have listened to my own advice!





Wondercoin

SkyMan

<< <i>...The draft, with all the color pictures, etc. are due at Whitman April 1. I don't know how long it takes them to finish things, but I imagine it would be scheduled for fall 2010 release.

Rick >>




Interesting. I guess NONE of my toners made the cut for Rick's book... or even were asked to be looked at... after I volunteered to send him some if he wished to see them...

IrishMike

Good grief "most examples in 65 or 66 are not terribly attractive", hmmm maybe not to you but then again its difficult to try and sell them for exorbitant prices too.

JJM

I love em
there a "mellow" looking coin

lcoopie

most 65's and 66's are probably not too attractive if you consider the entire population,
I try not to have those

PawPaul

<< <i>

<< <i>...The draft, with all the color pictures, etc. are due at Whitman April 1. I don't know how long it takes them to finish things, but I imagine it would be scheduled for fall 2010 release.

Rick >>




Interesting. I guess NONE of my toners made the cut for Rick's book... or even were asked to be looked at... after I volunteered to send him some if he wished to see them... >>



Although R. Tomaska has earned the respect of most Franklin specialists ; there seems to be some problem in getting many of the most spectacular

Franklins from the top color sets into the book . I hope they are being held back for the second edition

PawPaul

"MS 66, are not terribly attractive. Most 66's exhibit mottled toning. The attractive pieces are getting harder and harder to find. A beautifully toned Franklin is many times rarer than a beautifully toned Morgan - yet the Franklin still sells for a fraction of the price!"


.........without a doubt - a beautifully toned Franklin is many time's as rare as a similar Morgan .

Take an average group of slabbed MS Franklin's of any given date slabs ; you will find 90% or more lack any real eye appeal.........

Thats why superb mind numbing color pieces sell for multibles of the run of the mill one's

.......but what to do with those other 90% of the coins ?

RYK

<< <i>There aren't many series that haven't greatly increased in value and this is one of the few series still affordable in high grades. I don't think that will last much longer though. More and more people are discovering Benjamin and I think it's a great investment as well as being able to complete the entire series in a high grade. I welcome any comments.

Ogden >>



Well, was Ogden on or off the mark, six years ago, when he started this thread?

ultimatecameo

skyman -

not at all. We are really getting into the photography now. It was the writing part that was taking up all the time.

Ship coins you want in the book. We need our own pictures!!

Which brings me to an important point -

If anyone has a coin they would like me to see, SHIP IT!!! The worst that can happen is we won't use it and we'll ship it back!

Please do not expect an invitation. Its too much for me to remember! I have hired someone to help with the organization of the materials, but there is a lot to do, and a lot to remember, in addition to trying to run a business.

Warmest regards,

Rick

ultimatecameo

irishmike -

I do not get the jist of your comment....

PawPaul

i get it