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Do you give up your reserve price when asked?
GoSoxBoSox
Posts: 1,103
I personally wish eBayers would simply bid what they're willing to pay instead of asking for my reserve price. If everyone looked at buying this way I'd stop getting e-mails asking me what my reserve price is. I feel like saying "What the hell's the difference what my reserve price is? Bid what you're willing to pay moron!!!" I don't...of course, but it'd be nice.
It's amazing to me that people think this information should be given out. It's kept private for a reason. It's all part of the psychology of auctions.
If I give them the reserve then either (1) they get offended at the high price and never bid at all thus my price may not be driven as high; or (2) they change their mind from what they were originally willing to pay to meet me at a higher price.
In scenario #1, I "may" lose for obvious reasons. In scenario #2, sure I may win but it doesn't say much for the buyer. This scenario is really a concern for me because my reserves are always below SMR and I almost always reach them. The issue I have here is why the hell don't people know what their walk away price is?
Any thoughts from the gallery?
It's amazing to me that people think this information should be given out. It's kept private for a reason. It's all part of the psychology of auctions.
If I give them the reserve then either (1) they get offended at the high price and never bid at all thus my price may not be driven as high; or (2) they change their mind from what they were originally willing to pay to meet me at a higher price.
In scenario #1, I "may" lose for obvious reasons. In scenario #2, sure I may win but it doesn't say much for the buyer. This scenario is really a concern for me because my reserves are always below SMR and I almost always reach them. The issue I have here is why the hell don't people know what their walk away price is?
Any thoughts from the gallery?
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Comments
<< <i>I think your option #2 is a little flawed, because if they're willing to up their price to meet your reserve, then they'd probably do it anyway when their first bidding attempt doesn't satisfy your reserve. >>
That's exactly my point.
I asked since I didnt see anyone else really bidding on the item, and thought maybe a counter offer could be agreed on. Since I pretty much bid until my fingers had sores, I figured I had the right to ask. Again I was well over what I was looking to pay, but if he was willing to go just a few bucks more then what I was at, I would have been ready to close the deal. To me since I had bid up to 3k and the last person to bid was at like $800 I had no reason not to ask what he was looking for. I was the only sucker willing to pay more then the $800 that one other had bid, so I tried to meet reserve. I was done at $2500 and said wth go for $3000. Sadly his BIN was 5k and he was looking for about that.
I see nothing wrong with asking, since I have done it. I rarely put a reserve, but if asked I have no problem telling them. Sometimes when they bid they may only be a few dollars off, and I may be willing to eat them few bucks.
Wow long post sorry guys and gals
Jeff
All Help Is Needed And Apprciated!
<< <i>if my max. bid is $400 for example, and his reserve is $450, I might just raise my bid to meet his reserve. >>
Dave,
I just knew somebody would answer this way. The bottom line here is that you were indeed willing to pay more than $400 for the card so why did you take a chance? Why not just bid what you're willing to pay in the first place?
It goes back to the art of negotiating I guess. Some people are bottom line people (me), but others like to "play the game" (you). It's all good.
thecommoncard,
First, welcome to the boards. Second, the way you bid on that card you mentioned is I guess what I see in people I just don't understand. You were willing to pay $2,500. So think it out, come up with the price, and click the "SUBMIT" button once (or snipe it if you're me)
Worst case scenario, if the reserve wasn't met you can contact the seller and offer him the $2,500 if he's willing to drop his price. After all, when you thought it out you established a $2,500 limit so you won't change your mind, right ?
I usually decline to answer, just my preference and probably to my advantage in some cases - esp. if 2 bidders are going to bid at the end (or put in a snipe amount) and both don't know the reserve amount, this would work out better for me.
<< <i>Your card, you tell them whatever you want. Usually only takes a second to reply to those emails.
I usually decline to answer, just my preference and probably to my advantage in some cases - esp. if 2 bidders are going to bid at the end (or put in a snipe amount) and both don't know the reserve amount, this would work out better for me. >>
Agreed. I used to anwer the e-mails in the past. But anymore I just don't get why that would make sense for me as a seller.
Because I had no intention of bidding $450 originally. If left to a sniping service (90%+ of my bids) then I would not have won at $400 and he wouldn't have made the sale. The flip side is that I still might think that $400 is all I'm willing to spend. It's kind of like any major purchase. When purchasing a $35,000 car, it's alot easier to be sold the $1,000 stereo system after I have made the decision to buy the $35,000 car. In other words, if I have already committed $400 to the card purchase, then the seller is only selling me on parting with $50 more and not the original $450 that he set as his reserve.
How many times have you lost an auction... at say $100.... then looked at the winning bid of $110.00, and thought to yourself... I would have paid that.
I think most bidders have 2 seperate walk away prices: The highest price they think they'll pay when they place their initial bid, and then the REAL price that they'll actually pay.... when faced with the potential of not owning the item.
I'm not in car sales (like Vargha
As far as the reserve price goes... maybe try giving them a small hint like, "It's close to SMR", or "It's a little above / below SMR", etc. This will get them in the ballpark (and will let them decide if they want to bid), but still maintains the integrity of your reserve.
or better yet... just start out your auctions at the minimum you'd like to sell it for and save yourself (and the bidders) some grief. Shouldn't sellers have to know their "walk away price" too?
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To the part of you being in the minority, I guess it all depends on the item. In my case, I bid $2500 after the high bid was only $800. I was done at the $2500 but I had really thought if the seller said "Well reserve is $3500" that I may be willing to offer the middle and see if he would take 3k. I think that when most bid, they still have the want of the win and need of the card. Take a small auction into play. You are willing to spend $8 on a card and it does not hit the reserve. You find later that no one else bid after your 8 and the reserve is ten bucks. Seller writes you (yeah spam) after the auction and says "my reserve is $10 and will meet ya at $9 if you want it. Will you come off the extra dollar ?
Sorry to toss figures around, but I think a lot of it is not wanting to miss something by a small amount. Also I think I like most hate to lose an auction. In a seller stand point, if you have are listing something and have a grand as a reserve and bid gets to $950, for me it would be really hard not to sell at $950 and take a small loss.
Just my two pennies again, even though they werent asked for.
Jeff
All Help Is Needed And Apprciated!
Just my .02
Houston
coachhouston247@msn.com
1955 Topps All-American (raw or PSA graded)
Sometimes I ask, sometimes I dont. If a seller refuses to tell me (they generally just do not respond top the inquiry), I'm not too upset, its their option to tell me or not. I prefer them to say in the auction listing, but its their auction.
My .03 inflation you know.
as a result I have found.....(1) The price I'm willing to pay is always over SMR so it's more than fair. Those of you whom I've bought from can attest to that fact. (2) If you're indeed willing to pay over SMR you'll eventually find your card at your price. Granted there are exceptions to this rule, but we must take that fact into consideration when we set our price to meet the actual market price v. SMR. (3) My life as a buyer/bidder has become much easier - mentally speaking.
I'm a Subject Matter Expert (SME) in the Supply Chain arena with a large consulting firm. One of my fields of expertise that I consult on is global auctions for commodities and services. The reserve price is an auction tool meant to play mind games with the bidders. I can tell you that in my real world experience and by the comments we've seen in this thread the tool works. When you give it away you are defeating the purpose. You might as well make the reserve price your minimum bid.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to sound like a know it all, but after a few years of seeing this issue on eBay I just wanted to get a sense from experienced eBayers on how they feel about this issue. It's nice to get the viewand experiences of others as well as express my views and experiences. Maybe we helped change each others mind a bit?
I still feel the same way
<< I change my mind as well as play back and forth with myself... >>
you should really work on this.... cause you'll eventually go blind.
<< <i>Agreed. I used to anwer the e-mails in the past. But anymore I just don't get why that would make sense for me as a seller. >>
Maybe I'm reading your statement wrong, but if you're just saying that you don't even answer such emails (either in the positive or negative), you're probably losing bidders. The quickest way to make me NOT bid on an auction is for the seller to ignore a question I've asked.
I see two reasons why reserves might be set. One is to protect an investment. You put $2k into this card, you need to get at least $2k back out of it. That's fine. I have no problem with that. Sellers who are protecting investments usually don't have that much of a problem revealing their reserves.
The second is what you described - leveraging the psychology of the auction-goer to increase bids. This, while technically acceptable, strikes me as manipulative and something I (as a buyer) do not benefit from in the least. So I can choose not to support it. eBay's a big marketplace, after all.
This isn't a statement about you, GoSox; I don't even know your eBay user ID. I just tend to avoid auctions where the reserve price is out of my range, or likely to be so.
Someone else said that bidding is half the fun; to me, that's only true if I think I stand a chance of actually winning the card.
Un
Give me a start price you will sell at, and I'll set my snipe against the market.
One comment on this - remember that even though you bid $100 and the winning bid was at $110, that doesn't always mean that you would've won the auction had you entered $110 or $120. That high bidder could've had a bid in for $500 and yours was the only bid he/she had to beat.
I only mention that to keep us somewhat sane.. it's happened to me several times in the past and I just tell myself this so I don't go loco...
<< <i>Maybe I'm reading your statement wrong, but if you're just saying that you don't even answer such emails (either in the positive or negative), you're probably losing bidders. The quickest way to make me NOT bid on an auction is for the seller to ignore a question I've asked.
The second is what you described - leveraging the psychology of the auction-goer to increase bids. This, while technically acceptable, strikes me as manipulative and something I (as a buyer) do not benefit from in the least. So I can choose not to support it. eBay's a big marketplace, after all.
This isn't a statement about you, GoSox; I don't even know your eBay user ID. I just tend to avoid auctions where the reserve price is out of my range, or likely to be so. >>
unamudzd1,
You're not reading it wrong. I probably should've stated it more clearly. I'm saying that I don't give them the answer they want...which is the reserve price. But I do answer.
Your response in paragraph two puzzles me? Manipulative? Please. You're reading way to much into a reserve price. Reserve price (as you know) is the minimum price you'll let a card go for. By setting a minimum price that is much lower than the reserve price I believe I get people to see the card for 7-10 days which fosters competition via bidding. It's a proven fact that it works.
Let's say I have a card that I put up for say a $100 dollar min bid and the reserve is $200 because that's what I need for the card. If you see a minimum bid of $200 you may walk away without thinking twice. At $100 you bid because you have a price in mind of say $175. As you and another start to bid against one another the theory behind the origin of auctions takes over. For some it people the auction becomes more about winning then it does about the card itself. I've seen it work hundreds of times for tremendous amounts of money. We all have, right?
Your response in paragraph three is exactly my point. If I tell you the reserve you may walk, and we both know I want your bid to help drive up the price. eBay isn't a place where people buy off a list price....it's an auction. The point is to get as much as you can or we would have a BIN on every card that is the same as our min bid. If you walk because I don't give you the reserve price than you really didn't want the card and you are way too emotional - it's the taking my toys and going home drama.
Even if you don't agree with everything I say in this thread I would hope you look at the structure of auctions a bit differently. There's an aweful lot to think about that some never consider.
<< <i>One comment on this - remember that even though you bid $100 and the winning bid was at $110, that doesn't always mean that you would've won the auction had you entered $110 or $120. That high bidder could've had a bid in for $500 and yours was the only bid he/she had to beat.
I only mention that to keep us somewhat sane.. it's happened to me several times in the past and I just tell myself this so I don't go loco...
Haaa. Amen to that. That's one of the reasons I decide on my cap, place my snipe, and forget about it. It keeps the mind healthy!!
You're at a show. You walk up to a dealer who has a card you really want.
-----------------------------------------------------
"How much for the card?"
Make offer.
"Will you take $500?"
No.
"$600?"
No, need more.
"How much would you be willing to take to sell it?"
I'm not going to disclose that amount.
----------------------------------------------------------------
If that happened to anyone here, they'd go bonkers and write a three page post on how the dealer was a total POS and they'd never stop at his table again. Yet, that's basically what's being discussed through reserve auctions here.
My philosophy is simple - if I see an auction, and the reserve isn't already met, I figure the seller is usually fishing and I don't even waste my time. If you're willing to take no less than $500, great - that's what's called a minimum bid. If I only want to pay $400, I can either move on or contact you through ebay if the item doesn't sell. But I'm not going to waste my time bidding against myself.
You're analogy is moronic at best. Of course we'd be pissed in the scenario you used. That particular person won't sell the card. But an auction with a reserve price is certainly not that scenario is it? As I said before, my reserves are always below SMR so I'm not being unfair. And for you to assume I'm out of line because I have a reserve is judgemental on your part and pigeon-holing me into a category because somebody in your past used a reserve price in what you deemed an improper way.
I agree that if people put outlandish reserves on a card with no intention on selling it that it's improper, but let's not turn this thread into something it's not. The point of the thread was for me to understand why bidders ask sellers what the reserve is?
What I've learned is that a great deal of bidders have had some bad experiences with sellers that have no intention of selling the card so they don't want to waste their time. That's certainly understandable.
My only answer to that is not everybody uses reserves that way and it's not the intented use of the "tool". I use it the correct way therefore should not have to give the reserve price up.
That's for reading my many rants on this topic. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one
Tom
It's not a question as to whether your prices/reserves are fair or not. I'm just saying that I completely avoid auctions with reserves that haven't been met, because I find 9 out of 10 times they are a waste of my time. Of course, in the case where someone has an item that's top notch and really wanted, I'll put up with the nonsense. But explain how my analogy is incorrect, just because it's in a different setting??
This is the same reason why I don't like to bid, and often do not bother with bidding in major catalog auctions. They also have hidden reserves, but even worse than on ebay, the fact that there IS a reserve is most often not disclosed. Go to a live auction in Pennsylvania, and bid on an item. You'll find the auctioneer placing a bid in absentium. BUT, you don't know if he's placing a bid for an absentee bidder, or to meet the reserve! If you're bidding $1000, wouldn't you like to know if there was another real bidder at $950?
<< <i>I'm a Subject Matter Expert (SME) in the Supply Chain arena with a large consulting firm. One of my fields of expertise that I consult on is global auctions for commodities and services. The reserve price is an auction tool meant to play mind games with the bidders. >>
I, too, know quite a bit about SCM and auction psychology. It's why I won't bid on any reserve auction unless the buyer discloses the reserve price or the bidders eventually hit it. I would rather say FU to mind games in the same way I say FU to stupid car salesmen who tell me they need to "ask their manager" about the price.
No offense to you or anyone else doing reserve auctions, but I recognize it as a mind game and refuse to play the game.
My two cents.
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<< <i>But explain how my analogy is incorrect, just because it's in a different setting??
<< <i>
beefcake,
Walking up to a table at a show is a totally different dynamic than an auction with a time limit. If you don't see the difference you need to educate yourself on auctions. Walking up to a table is a traditional 1-on-1 negotiation with an outcome that can change with every word that is spoken. The seller has one buyer in this scenario therefore has a totally different negotiating position. In your analogy the seller wouldn't give a price no matter how high the buyer went. That's not a negotiation. There's no give and take.
An online auction is a negotiation that is many-on-many with a minimum acceptable outcome that is pre-defined by the seller where all of the bidder are racing against a clock. The seller was many potential buyers in this scenario and leaves the group to fight it out (as long as you meet his minimum price that is).
For the record, I agree with all of you that are frustrated by the improper use of reserve prices as a tool. But if you're passing up on a card you REALLY want because of it than it's your loss. Bid what it's worth to you and forget about it. If you meet the reserve...GREAT!!! If not....oh well.
The only point I was ever trying to make in this thread is that if everyone bid that way than people would stop asking for the reserve before the auction ended.
I'm very much surprised to learn that so many senior collectors bid a certain price for a card, but are willing to pay more after they see the price it sells for. I realize you did necessarily say that but others did.
I think we need a seminar on figuring out what, how, and when to bid. I bet there's a lot we'd all learn from one another.
Cheers,
Tom
<< <i>I, too, know quite a bit about SCM and auction psychology. It's why I won't bid on any reserve auction unless the buyer discloses the reserve price or the bidders eventually hit it. I would rather say FU to mind games in the same way I say FU to stupid car salesmen who tell me they need to "ask their manager" about the price.
No offense to you or anyone else doing reserve auctions, but I recognize it as a mind game and refuse to play the game.
<< <i>
Touche. It's certainly surprising to see that so many folks hate reserves. I've never run across this reaction before. The funny part is I fully understand reserves and they've never bothered me in the least. Again, I just bid what I think the card is worth to me and let the chips fall where they may....with a smaile on my face of course.
Though, I must admit... when I see a reserve, I automatically put my defenses up... as if there is some dishonesty involved...
I realize that this is likely not the case... that the seller is either protecting an investment or maximizing their marketing potential...
Honest or dishonest, the reserve always throws up a flag for me to look closer at who is selling it...
If it's a card I really want... and I have no sense of what the card has sold for in the past.... and it's 6 or 7 days away from ending... I may write the seller and ask a ball park figure of what the reserve is...
I do this because I need to know if winning the card is a realistic goal... if it is even worth it to obsess over acquiring it....
or... I may need to know what I may have to sell from my own collection in order to make it fit in my card budget...
Even though reserves don't really slant the playing field in the seller's favor... it seems to have this effect psychologically...
What ANNOYS me most as a bidder is when I see these ebayers with 1 or 2 or 3 feedbacks that have been registered since july of 2000 outbidding me...
Right now... I have a bidder with 3 feedbacks bidding on one of my cards.
I know he is legit because I wrote him and he was kind and positive about winning my card... however, I know that potential bidders may shy away... his low feedback and relatively few wins since his registration implies to some that I am bidding on my own auctions...
I think you are in a tough spot when someone asks you your reserve. If you refuse to answer, they may perceive you as dishonest or jerky... if you do answer, it defeats the purpose of the reserve.
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<< <i>I'm very much surprised to learn that so many senior collectors bid a certain price for a card, but are willing to pay more after they see the price it sells for. I realize you did necessarily say that but others did. >>
Why would this be suprising? I'm not being sarcastic at all - let's say there's a card out there that's is worth $100 to me. I bid $100, and don't get it. Next auction, same thing. Next auction, still lose. Well, the message may eventually sink in that I'm going to have to pay more than what I felt it's worth if I want to own it, or I'm not going to have it!
It's the same with autos and all - how many of us want a Rolex? How many would buy one if they were $250 (leaving aside that such a price would eliminate the status part of owning one)? How many at $2500? $25,000? After a while, you learn that if a Rolex is only worth $250 to you, you either have to change your thinking or accept the fact that you're not going to be wearing one!
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm very much surprised to learn that so many senior collectors bid a certain price for a card, but are willing to pay more after they see the price it sells for. I realize you did necessarily say that but others did. >>
Why would this be suprising? I'm not being sarcastic at all - let's say there's a card out there that's is worth $100 to me. I bid $100, and don't get it. Next auction, same thing. Next auction, still lose. Well, the message may eventually sink in that I'm going to have to pay more than what I felt it's worth if I want to own it, or I'm not going to have it! >>
beefcake,
I don't know why you read more into my words than I actually say? I've make many comments stating that for every auction I decide on my price and that's it. One bid is made. You twist it into a sequence of auctions were someone adjusts his bid higher from one auction to the next based upon what he has learned in the earlier auctions. Of course after I lose an auction for the fourth time I would've adjusted higher. But I still make that decision and bid once.
How 'bout this.....I'm wrong....you're right....reserves are placed by evil people that are only looking to get over on the innocent. OK?
ydsotter got my point easy enough...why don't you?
<< <i>
How 'bout this.....I'm wrong....you're right....reserves are placed by evil people that are only looking to get over on the innocent. OK?
>>
Now I read you perfectly clear.
<< <i>You're not reading it wrong. I probably should've stated it more clearly. I'm saying that I don't give them the answer they want...which is the reserve price. But I do answer. >>
I actually did read it wrong, then, since it sounded like you avoided responding at all. My bad.
<< <i>Your response in paragraph two puzzles me? Manipulative? Please. >>
I'm not sure what else you'd call it. You yourself said that it's all about the psychology of the auction, which is about getting people to bid and drive up the price (I believe this is quoted below). That is inherently manipulating people by withholding information. If you want me to bid on something I can't afford (but don't know I can't afford) so that you can achieve a higher price, that is manipulating me. I'm surprised to see you sugar-coat like that; it doesn't seem your style.
<< <i>You're reading way to much into a reserve price. Reserve price (as you know) is the minimum price you'll let a card go for. By setting a minimum price that is much lower than the reserve price I believe I get people to see the card for 7-10 days which fosters competition via bidding. It's a proven fact that it works. >>
You won't get any argument from me. Clearly, it works to foster competition.
{very cogent example snipped}
<< <i>Your response in paragraph three is exactly my point. If I tell you the reserve you may walk, and we both know I want your bid to help drive up the price. >>
And I want your card; but if your reserve is out of my range, I won't get it. So why should you get my bid? That's a rather one-sided relationship, IMO. You get something from me, I get nothing from you and actually contribute to the further inflation of the market, making it harder for me to afford similar cards in the future. I'm still waiting to hear why not knowing reserves is a good thing from the buyer's perspective.
<< <i>eBay isn't a place where people buy off a list price....it's an auction. The point is to get as much as you can or we would have a BIN on every card that is the same as our min bid. >>
I do understand the concept, actually. Just because I don't consult on auctions for a living, doesn't mean I don't understand them.
<< <i>If you walk because I don't give you the reserve price than you really didn't want the card and you are way too emotional - it's the taking my toys and going home drama. >>
Not at all. There's a difference between not wanting the card and not being able to afford it at a particular level. Not all of us have the luxury of being able to buy everything we want. It's not drama, it's a fact. I don't bid emotionally, I bid rationally, based on whether I can afford a card and what size footprint my wife will leave in my rear if I buy it.
<< <i>Even if you don't agree with everything I say in this thread I would hope you look at the structure of auctions a bit differently. There's an aweful lot to think about that some never consider. >>
I've considered them from both the buyer's and the seller's perspective. I respect that you don't want to give out your reserves, because it may hurt competition. That's fine. I hope that you will respect that some number of buyers don't want to bid in such auctions and that it's not an immature, emotion-based decision.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they haven't thought about what you've said.
Un
Great exchange of views. That's exactly what we need around here. Your points are understood and I think mine are too.
Tom