NGC MS67 Washington quarters vs. PCGS - why such a big difference in prices?

dan1ecu

Is there really that much difference in quality between an NGC MS67 and a PCGS MS67 for this series? There are many more NGC MS67's. Does anyone know how the two services differ on these? Is there a significant difference?

Thanks,

Dan

Bikingnut

Because PCGS standards are a lot tougher. A lot of the NGC 67's I've seen wouldn't make it into PCGS 67 holders. Same with the 66's. Then again, quite a few PCGS 66's I've seen probably should be in 65 holders.

MadMarty

Buy the coin not the holder!!!

darktone

I think NGC has quite a few MS67 slabs that were graded back when technical grading was used more and not much weight was given to the eye appeal. mike

Tonekiller

<< <i>The NGC coins are about 1 full grade BELOW the quality of PCGS. However there are some very nice NGC qtrs. My
favorite qtr is in a NGC holder. >>




Right, and Pigs fly south for the winter.

I have been going over THOUSANDS of raw pre 65 quarters using many NGC and PCGS slabs as examples. When I find one over graded, I then find another under graded.....both NGC and PCGS. I am going blind with all these white coins!

Grade the coin not the plastic.

Bikingnut

It always comes back to that, buy the coin, not the holder. It's too bad so many collectors and dealers put so much emphasis on that grade that's on the holder with no regard to the coin inside.

nwcs

Which means it could be a smart play to get some NGC 67 quarters when they are spot on the grade.

wondercoin

THIS COMMENT ONLY APPLIES TO THE MS SILVER WASH QUARTER SERIES.

Dan: You asked a fair question, so I am going to give you a short answer - the way I see it (and I have purchased/sold something approaching close to $1,000,000 in Wash quarters over the past couple years - I am not aware of anyone out there that has bought more than I have in this series but there might be one or two major retailers).

Prior to Rick Montgomery's arrival at NGC last year, I believe most dealers/collectors "in the know" agree NGC and PCGS essentially graded to a different standard when it came to silver MS Wash quarters. PCGS had graded just a couple MS68 silver coins, while NGC had graded many, many multiples of that amount. PCGS had super low pop dates in MS67 where the MS66 coins were fairly common (e.g. 1954(s), 1953(s), etc) while NGC pops in MS67 on these dates were upwards of the 100's. Even a coin date like the 55(d) was (and still is) unheard of in PCGS-MS67, while at NGC it would not be uncommon to have a pop of a dozen or two of these coins. NOW, THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THERE WERE NOT INCREDIBLE NGC COINS THAT WOULD CROSS INTO PCGS COINS, OR THAT ALL PCGS COINS WERE SUPER QUALITY - it simply means that generally speaking the NGC standard was not the PCGS standard IMHO. AND, MOST IMPORTANTLY,THIS DOES NOT MEAN NGC WAS TOO LOOSE - IN FACT, MANY AGREED NGC WAS PROPERLY - REPEAT - PROPERLY GRADING THE WASH QUARTER SERIES OVERALL (SAVE SOME DARK PROBLEM COINS) WHEREAS PCGS WAS UNDERGRADING THE SERIES FOR WHATEVER INTERNAL MOTIVATIONS THERE WERE. But, FOR WHATEVER REASON, THEY WERE NOT UTILIZING THE SAME STANDARD.

But, a careful study of the past 12-18 months reveals the following:

1. PCGS started using the entire grading scale a bit more for the series. The "handful" of MS68 coins over the first 15+ years of PCGS' operation has now become something like TWO DOZEN MS68 coins just one year later! Coins like the 1954(s) I mentioned which was a pop 3 (or less) coin in PCGS-MS67 for ages suddenly is pop 9/0 a year or so later (and I know exactly why - that is for another thread).

2. NGC slightly adjusted its grading scale a bit, especially through the use of the * and being much more careful in not slabbing deeply toned (unattractive yet truly original) specimens in MS68 and other super high grades IMHO. Perhaps Rick M's influence, or just a natural adjustment based upon market conditions - who knows.

The result - the price gap between NGC and PCGS coins has lessened significantly in the past 12-18 months. This is, in part, due to PCGS prices dropping on the majority of coins in the series (but, what an incredible opportunity to pluck off those tight graded super PQ PCGS-MS67 Wash quarters for "steal" prices as a natural consequence IMHO) where the pops exploded and in part to NGC's product itself IMHO. Additionally, the difference in standards which I mentioned earlier has also eroded somewhat - with the grading companies coming towards each other IMHO. Which is why I was personally comfortable recently buying an NGC-MS68* Wash quarter for something like $11,000 for a common date coin, while passing on a PCGS-MS68 common date at under $10,000. It is also why I had success buying an NGC coin recently for around $300 and selling it for around $17,000 after it upgraded to the next highest PCGS grade. But, it is also why a 1961(p) Wash Quarter in a PCGS-MS67 just sold in NY Heritage for around $10,000 but a typical NGC coin trades still at around $500-$1000 (as most experts are fairly confident the standard was different when PCGS graded that 1961(p) quarter 4 years ago an MS67 and NGC graded it dozen or so 1961 coins MS67 at the same time.

So, in closing, Manofcoins' observations are what they are (and echo mine here to some degree) because he has handled 100's of PCGS and NGC coins mostly all slabbed pre-2003. But, with the current evolutions in the way each grading service is currently handling the Wash quarter series in late 2002-2003 - I would not be surprised if Tonekiller's position became more and more the case in the years ahead as the difference in standards lessens. With one major caveat - it is still the case that the "cream" NGC coins are being crossed into PCGS holders at very high rates, thereby reducing the overall quality of the NGC coins in the marketplace at any given moment. Until NGC figures out a way to keep its "cream" coins in NGC coins, there may always be an appearance that the PCGS coins are nicer overall - after all - PCGS gets to pick and chose which NGC coins it wants in its holders and which it wants to remain in NGC holders every day.

Hope this helps.

Wondercoin

onlyroosies

There is one other reason that PCGS coins command such a large premium over NGC coins. Its
Registry fever. IMO the premium would drop considerably if NGC coins were allowed in the PCGS
Registry. PCGS is the elite. My set was originally registered at NGC and I believe manofcoins set
was too. I felt my set did not get the recognition it deserved and therefor I set out to build an
elite set. To do that it reqired a complete PCGS set. Like wondercoin said, There are some great
coins in NGC holders and my ultimate set is a mixed set. But in order to get the recognition I
wanted my set to have it had to be in PCGS holders, and rightly so. I credit at least 70% of that
premium being paid to the advent of the PCGS Registry. I also believe it would be in NGC's best
interest to not allow PCGS coins in there registry and would up the value of NGC coins.

And by the way, I'm in favor of not allowing NGC coins in the PCGS Registry. But!!! As long as
the two registries stay the way they are the cream NGC coins will be gone, and the huge
premiums for PCGS coins will remain.

Onlyroosies

wondercoin

Craig: I personally try to "cross" next to nothing. Nearly any coin I like goes in raw. Most PCGS coins as well get cracked and go in raw. There are exceptions to this of course, especially when it comes to designation coins - a just made it FS nickel or FBL half might have to be submitted in the holder looking for an upgrade. And, yet, the price differential is still large in many, many cases - but, I did compare a $10,000 PCGS 1961(p) with a $500-$1000 NGC 1916(p) same grade coin, so I did cover that point.

Wondercoin

Blade

Mitch -
Now THAT was some insight. I deem that the response of the day! It's great when someone with so much experience in a series offers to share your wisdom and knowledge. On thought... how dod I tell if the NGC coins have been graded in the past 12 months? The new holders?

rainbowroosie

Buy the coin, not the holder.....why is this so hard to understand??...

wondercoin

"On thought... how dod I tell if the NGC coins have been graded in the past 12 months? The new holders?"


Tom: Since anyone can pay $5 or $10 and get a coin reholdered (or pay $15 for grade review with a new serial number being assigned), I am not even sure there is a hard and fast way to know when a coin was truly first graded. Maybe Bill or Nick could comment on this.

Wondercoin

IrishMike

Mitch, execellent analysis. Buy the coin not the slab is easy to understand. What I see happening at times is a result of trying to find the coins to fill in the slot of a Registry Set without having seen the coin. Coins are purchased off Ebay & Teletrade which may or may not measure up. Maybe in addition to buy the coin and the not the slab, there should be take your time and use the experience you have gaind to make sounder purchasing decisions. Nothing wrong with taking a gamble with a coin, afterall it is just a hobby.

darktone

Good post wondercoin! mike

Gilbert

Here is my new perspective that provides an explanation; it at least works for me.

It is "one upmanship". The services kinda' look at the general trend of each other and takes an opposing position.

If company A is is the "service of choice" for a series then company B takes the position that A is overly stringent and to get a piece of that market it grades a bit more in line with those dissatified with company A.

If company B is the service of choice, then company A takes the position that B is unrealistic and overgrades and uses a marketing campaign to, ahem, malign or otherwise infiltrate company B market by refusing to acknowledge Bs competence.

I probably didn't spell that out right, but it sounded good in my head.

So, PCGS is tight and NGC is more in line with the average joe, proving that PCGS is NOT collector oriented.
NGC is too lenient and so PCGS will only cross the very best NGC coins, proving that NGC is the lesser service.

Both statements evolve and devolve depending on who wants more business.

I have never submitted to NGC, but I'll tell you PCGS more often than not comes off TO ME as a ripoff. Yes, they sell better and they ought to, since they are set up "institutionally" to compel you to submit the same coin more than once before slabbing (not to mention probably the highest fees already). It costs you more time and effort to get a coin in a PCGS slab - EVEN WHEN THEY MEET all the criteria the first time it is submitted.

jcping

> it is still the case that the "cream" NGC coins are being crossed into PCGS holders at very high rates,
> thereby reducing the overall quality of the NGC coins in the marketplace at any given moment.
> Until NGC figures out a way to keep its "cream" coins in NGC coins, there may always be an appearance
> hat the PCGS coins are nicer overall - after all - PCGS gets to pick and chose which NGC coins it wants in its holders
> and which it wants to remain in NGC holders every day.

Mitch, my whole is with your statement. This is exactly what I saw in the last four years. I post the same idea in this forum and I got PMs to tell me that my thinking was dangerous.

jcping

> It costs you more time and effort to get a coin in a PCGS slab -
> EVEN WHEN THEY MEET all the criteria the first time it is submitted.

If you play submitting and selling games, yes, PCGS is a bad guy most of the time. If you buy and collect better quality coins, then PCGS is an easy guy. It really depends on which side you are with.

I saw many many folks sent in coins to PCGS and wish to hit the jackpot(s). Sometimem they did and most of times they failed. One way or the other, PCGS gets all merits.

Go to major coin shows and ask national known dealers "what is the toughest coin to move?" 8 out of 10 answers are high grade NGC coins.

dan1ecu

Thanks, All, for the comments!

I suspected that NGC's standards were different than PCGS's. I lean toward believing, though, that NGC just tries to grade accurately (according to their standards), while PCGS does more "cherry picking."

I appreciate your comments, Wondercoin. You do seem to be THE expert on Washington quarters!

Dan

sumner1984

buy the holder not the coin !!!I only buy PCGS. PCGS rules. Why buy anything else, I dont need that aggrevation. lol

wondercoin

Dan: Thanks for the compliment

The great thing about the Wash quarter series is simply how diverse and interesting the series really is. My expertise is primarily in the area of high grade coins and includes nearly my 20 year study of Clad Wash quarters as well - truly a sleeper collection IMHO. As far as the vast study of Wash. Quarter varieties, I enjoy being a student of the field still and tip my hat to guys like Bob Z and Doug W. to name just a couple of fellow board members who know a great deal about that segment of the market.

Wondercoin