Painted Frost and Cameo proofs

coolkarma

As the dedicated readers among you may remember (Old Thread), I discovered a "near cameo" 1952 proof half which was near cameo because someone had "painted" frost on it As responders recommended, I contacted PCGS and asked about the procedure to follow for a "doctored" coin. It is fairly straight forward (essentially you submit the coin as a no cost David Hall/Spot Review) so I was a little relieved.

Before sending the half in, I decided to examine all my proof cameos. Yes, the story gets worse. I found my 1952 PR66 Dcam nickel also looked like it had had its frost painted on And my 1958 PR67 Dcam Lincoln cent appeared to have had something strange done to it Not a very happy day.

I was in no hurry but eventually sent them all in and yesterday received word. They all had been doctored, irreparably. We've reached an acceptable monetary settlement, although of course, I would have preferred to have the coins, problem-free.

So, my recommendation to all is to examine your coins regularly, particularly your cameo proofs. For painted frost, it seems it takes about one to two years for the paint to "turn" and become apparent. If you have some blue holder with bar code on the back cameos, please take a close look.

fcloud

Thanks for keeping us posted.

Sorry, about your coins.

sinin1

they can't do anything to add mirrors can they?


don't you need more than frostr to get CAM or DCAM?

CarlWohlforth

I guess you can start with a proof coin with great mirrors then add frost.

I would like to see those coins so I know exactly what to look for. What a disappointment to learn one's coins were painted.

coolkarma

<< <i>don't you need more than frostr to get CAM or DCAM? sinin1 >>



As Carl suggested I think they start with a coin with nice mirrors and add frost to the devices. In this case, I think they started with a one-sided cameo half and a lightly cameo nickel.




<< <i>I would like to see those coins so I know exactly what to look for. >>


I still don't do pictures very well (and now I don't have the coins), but I can describe the suspect features of the nickel and half which were very similar.

Initially, the frost looks white and very normal. Now I suspect that it looks too white. Much of the cameo frost effect comes from the rough surface of the device. I suspect the surface is actually too smooth for the apparent amount of frost. This definitely was true after the painted frost had aged. The paint was fairly smooth after it had aged.

Over time (where I believe we are talking one to two years) the frost acquires a light blue tinge. It is subtle, but begins to look unnatural. Before it changes colors you may be able to detect the painting by examining the edges where the devices meet the mirrors. On the half you could see areas where they had missed a little of the device and others where they had covered a little of the mirrors. On the nickel they did a better job but the line between the device and the mirrors was not very sharp. While on the half it looked like they painted with long smooth brush strokes, on the nickel at places it looked like they they may have dabbed it on. I suspect both of these effects can happen on undoctored coins, but perhaps not to the same degree. The people at the mint probably used similar "painting" techniques to create the pickled device surfaces on the dies.

That's what I observed and inferred. I hope it helps. However, please note that this is not my line of business - the people at PCGS are much more knowledgeable. If they could offer some examples and explanations at the major coin shows, I think they would have a crowd of people wanting to learn. Of course, some of those people would be "doctors" trying to learn how to better hide their efforts.

Russ

coolkarma,

Been there myself. Here's the thread relating my experience with a doctored cameo.

Here's the coin:



Note the unevenness of the frost; the way it is opaque in some areas and translucent in others. Note also the discoloration on the major devices, particulary when compared to the color of the minor devices. In addition, the frost on the reverse comes to an abrupt halt at the top of the banner and doesn't extend above it.

Here is the real giveaway, though. Closeup image of the reverse:



Note how the frost splashes over in to the fields making it look like it was painted on.

Russ, NCNE

itsnotjustme

Any way--PCGS--to trace back to the submitter and possibly the original perpetrator? Be nice to shine a light up their ___.

Russ

Brian,

In my case I was told that the original submitter had a "history" with PCGS. So, yes, they knew who it was. I don't know if they went after him, though.

Russ, NCNE

scher

very informative...great picture russ..a few crooks can sure take the fun out of our hobby..
bruce scher

DAM

Bummer coolkarma!


I once saw a Morgan dollar, on a local coin shop's bid board, that had painted-on frost to make it look DMPL. It looked great from a couple of feet away. When you looked closely you noticed something different, and when you looked at it with a glass it was obvious. The frost was 'outside the lines', like childs coloring book picture.

supercoin

coolkarma, the dies at the mint are acid-etched (earlier coins) or sandblasted (more recently) and then the fields (which are the high point on the die) are polished. So there shouldn't be any brush-mark things in legitimate cameo.

Your experience shows the value a legit grading service can add. Often I hear people criticize slabbing services and buyers for creating/buying artifical value based on a number on a slab, but they forget about the cash-back guarantee part. If you bought those raw you'd be screwed.

Your experience is also another example of why it would be nice if the services would put the "born on" date on the label. Many problems (artificial toning, thumbing, fake cameo, fresh fingerprint, pvc) don't become obvious until months down the road. It'd be very nice for the buyer to determine how long a coin has been encapsulated.

RGL

Very sorry to hear of your problems, Richard ... I would have done the same in trusting a PCGS slab, I am happy they are making you whole, athough as we both know, we would much rather have the authentic coin in the grade described, as they are very hard to come by. I endorse Super's belief that coin should be explicitly dated, but David Hall has noted a PCGS slab is a PCGS slab is a PCGS slab, it does not/should not matter when it is dated... The guarantee and an equitable cash settlement is a poor subsitute for what you believe is the genuine item, particularly for a hard-core numismatist desiring the best.

dpoole

we would much rather have the authentic coin in the grade described

I certainly agree, but, of course, the truth is that the "authentic coin" never existed. Both of these were deeply-mirrored specimens that in fact never had impressive, contrasting frost. But what a disappointment, when you think you've found a genuine beauty, and you 've found you've been deliberately robbed by somebody back there!

I agree with Supercoin, that this is really where the value of the grading services comes into play, and this is the real benefit they provide the hobby, without which there would be much greater potential for people simply leaving the hobby after getting deceived so badly.

Great information here! Thanks, coolkarma and Russ!

braddick

Many Moderns where being frosted with the same type of acid used to etch the date out of 'dateless' Buffalo nickels.
PCI holdered a ton of them and a few crossed into PCGS holders.

It's a shame.

fcloud

ttt

DCAMFranklin

<< <i>Many Moderns where being frosted with the same type of acid used to etch >>



Have heard numerous rumblings of a couple of fellows using the same technique for awhile now. Mostly NGC having the wool pulled over their eyes.

Coolkarma- Will PCGS tell you who submitted the coins? If they are from the same source?

coolkarma

<< <i>DCAMFranklin: Will PCGS tell you who submitted the coins? If they are from the same source? >>



I didn't ask. I bought two of the coins from people I consider friends (one a board member). I can't imagine either did the actual painting. Both purchase numerous raw cameo coins, slab them, and sell them. Likely (at least in my preferred version of reality) they purchased the coins raw (already painted), thought they looked great, slabbed them, and sold them (to me). When they were slabbed roughly two years ago, they fooled PCGS, me, and I think the persons I purchased them from. Now they wouldn't fool any of us.

David Hall did assure me that they were going after the perpetrators "big time".

Russ, Thanks very much for your pictures. They provide excellent insight into what to look for after the coins have started to turn. My painted 1952 Franklin had several of the same features. However, it is much eaiser to paint a Franklin than the Eagle on a Kennedy - the color was more even and they did a better job of staying within the lines I think they had some of the same problems of needing to do some minute, delicate brushstrokes on the Jefferson nickel although it had not yet turned as much so it was harder to tell.

SuperCoin, I didn't mean to imply you could see actual brush marks. In the 1950's, as you note, the mint used an acid to create the rough device surfaces At least according to Tomaska, when they noticed a spot on a device that had not been adequately frosted, they used a cotton swab to frost it up. Similarly, when they were polishing the fields, I imagine they occasionally were a little overzealous and removed a bit of the frost near an edge of a device. At least that is what I was trying to suggest. If true, this means you really need some way of detecting the paint fairly directly.

And as several people noted, yes, I am very pleased these coins were in a slab that had a guarantee. I did have an "intellectual" understanding of the value of the PCGS guarantee. I now have a much deeper understanding, and a monetary one as well I am very thankful.

Russ

<< <i>I bought two of the coins from people I consider friends (one a board member). I can't imagine either did the actual painting. >>



coolkarma,

Mine was consigned to Heritage by a board member who purchased it from another board member! Neither of them were the culprit. Both were duped.

Russ, NCNE