All time greatest NFL rushers set question

Davemri

I was just checking this set today and noticed that a 1996 Sp Eddie George was added.

Just a couple questions.

1 Doesnt PSA usually email the registrants when a change is made to a set?
2 Who chose the SP to be added?

Although similar in price, the PSA 8 Topps Chrome is listed at $15 while the SP is listed at $11. I have always been led to believe that the chosen card was the highest price in PSA 8. Maybe I'm wrong.

I agree that he should be added to the set. I guess the thing that makes me upset is that I didnt at least have a vote as to which card was added. I recently submitted a request to tweak the Basketball HOF sets and the response that I got was this





I appreciate the fact that you want to make changes to the HOF Rookie set, however, now that there are quite a few other members who have registered sets, we cannot make changes without first getting a majority concensus. Therefore, after we get through the awards process (hopefully this week) and have some time to address this, we'll poll the registrants in this set and see if these changes make sense to all involved.

Thanks.
BJ Searls
Set Registry Manager
Collectors Universe





While I'm at it, I would like to see Joe Perry added to this set as well. He was the all time leading rusher before that guy named Brown took over. I want to see what everyone else thinks.

Dave

duner

i just started my set a couple weeks ago, so i'm unfamiliar with the process of altering it. but if you're gonna add perry, you have to add steve van buren, as he was the leader before perry. either way, i found the make up of the set somewhat odd....otis anderson, ricky watters? are you kidding me? they were good backs, but definitely a huge dropoff below the best of all time.

AlanAllen

I was wondering the same thing Dave. I know I wasn't e-mailed. Last year when some players were added, the decision was that players would be added once they hit 10,000 yards. George isn't there yet, so I didn't think he wold have been added until then, and at that point registrants would be e-mailed or a thread created to pick the card to be added. I didn't raise a stink because I consider the SP to be his most desirable RC, and I have both 10 anyway .

I wholeheartedly agree that Joe Perry should be added. He was the premier RB pre-Brown, and probably the most underrated HOF RB.

Duner, Ottis Anderson and Ricky Watters were added early this year. Someone requested a 10,000 yard rushers set, and instead of creating a new set with significant overlap, BJ and Joe decided just to add all 10,000 yard rushers to the existing set. Anderson, Watters, Martin, and Bettis were therefore added.

Joe

sixdart

I had originally requested the 10,000 yard rushing set. And since there were so many overlapping players' RCs, PSA made the decision to add them to the All-Time NFL Rushers set.

It's hard to compare the golden era stats to the modern game. However, I think that Steve Van Buren (check out his career accomplishments), Joe Perry, George McAfee and Bill Dudley should definitely be added to the set. They were the dominate runners of their generation. How about Jim Taylor and Lenny Moore with his 113 TDs? It's not just yardage that should make up the All-Time list. When comparing stats, please remember that some of these careers were interupted by World War II.

Here is a list of potential HOF RBs/HBs candidates that could be added ...

NFL HOF'ers by position

If these omissions could be explained, then perhaps we could answer why Randy Moss and Marvin Harrison aren't included in the All-Time NFL Receivers set? And, as much as I like him, Kurt Warner should be removed from the All-Time QB set if he doesn't start this year.

Marcus

JasP24

I have requested changes before, although i didnt request this one. One example was Len Dawson added to the QB set. I think all that is necessary to make an ADDITION is to request it, then it has to get approved through Joe Orlando. If you are trying to make CHANGES to the set other than an addition good luck. Subtracting(like Kurt Warner) or changing an entire set is near impossible. I previously e-mailed about PSA changing the All-Time Cowboys set to mirror the All-Time Steelers set because the way they have it now is just crazy. I was told that they would have to get an ok from the other collector's of the current set first...

As far as SP vs. Topps Chrome, the SP is worth more than the Topps Chrome via the SMR in PSA 9. And if you look at completed ebay auctions, the SP is by far the most valuable of the 2. And as we all know, the SMR usually takes a while to reflect market changes. The SMR used to list the Topps Chrome as more valuable in PSA 9 until the last couple of months. But the SP's have been selling higher on ebay for at least 2 years now...

I think all of the All-Time lists could and should be tweaked a little bit to be more accurate and for consistency throughout.

JasP24

Davemri

I dont understand why they have to go through a process for the changes i requested for the basketball HOF set. There are 2 players in the HOF player set that are inducted as contributers and not players. I think it is a matter of correcting an error rather than changing what I want. Anyway, we'll see what happens.

I also agree that all the finest sets need to be tweaked. Marvin Harrison and Moss definatly need to be added to the WR set. Kurt Warner definatly needs to be taken out of the QB's. Peyton Manning should be added to the all time QB set. There are several players I think should be taken out of the Steelers set (Dermonti Dawson, Greg Lloyd, Carnell Lake.....)

I think the bottom line is that, if Psa were to take cards out of sets, they would lose some submissions on those particular cards. if left in, people will submit those cards for the quest of 100%.

I guess ill be selling my eddie george chrome and look for a sp. Is the Sp the card of choice for Harrison as well?? If manning were added, would the card be SP authentic? Thats too pricey for me.
Just my thoughts

dave

JasP24

The 1996 RC's of choice are SP for all rookies from that year. Due to the toughness of the foil cards in mint condition.

Regarding the SP's, be aware that as far as the NFL HOF Rookie set goes, PSA will NOT be adding serial numbered cards to that set in the future. They may add it to the QB set or WR set, etc. but not the HOF set. So when Peyton and/or Moss ever get inducted into the Hall, their card will NOT be the SP on the HOF set. Just an FYI...

Also, it's my opinion that 6 years isn't long enough to put Moss or Manning on those sets, YET. Just as Kurt Warner has NO business there. All-Time greats should be just that, and if Moss or Manning were to have a career ending injury this week, they would not be Hall of Famers or All-Time greats. Just like what happened to Terell Davis. I think PSA should wait until they can truly be considered ALL-TIME greats before adding them. Harrison has met the criteria, T. Owens is close, but not yet ,and I don't know of ANY players who were rookies later than 1996 that deserve to be on those sets AT THIS POINT.

Steelers set should keep Dermontti on for sure, because he is a first ballot Hall of Famer, 9+ Pro Bowls, and never played for any team BUT the Steelers. Lloyd shouldn't be on it, and Lake I could go either way. He's a deserving player, but a deserving Steeler? Maybe/maybe not..I actually requested that Ernie Stautner be added to that set and was denied due to the fact that PSA wants to keep that set as only modern era players...Stautner was the first GREAT Steeler defensive player..

Jason

GoSoxBoSox

Dave,

The biggest issue I see here is that Eddie George just isn't all that good. He is a marginal running back at best. It's embarrassing to have a guy like him in that set when folks like Joe Perry are left out.

sixdart

TOP 20 WRs entering 2003 by receptions

TOP 20 RBs entering 2003 by yardage

All time passing statistics

GoSoxBoSox

sixdarts,

I understand your point for posting these links, but making these lists certainly doesn't make you one of the all-time greats. In most cases the guys on this list are indeed great...just not all cases.

Eddie George had a good few years but so did a lot of other guys. Billy Sims, Bo Jackson, Wilbert Montgomery, etc. I'd take all of them over Eddie George in a heartbeat. Longevity puts George on these lists, and yes...there's siomething to be said for longevity.

For the record, I don't think Phil Neikro and Early Wynn belong in the Baseball HOF just because they reached the 300 Win plateau. Anyone who pitches as long as Neikro did can reach 300 wins.

Tom

JasP24

One point to remember about the RB set is that it is doubling as a 10,000 yard rusher set. George WILL reach 10,000 eventually, so he was due to make the list..My opinion they should have waited until he hit the 10,000. Adding him now makes it a 9,000 yard plateau...

Perry deserves to be on it do doubt...Same with Lenny Moore and any other RB in the Hall of Fame...How can you have NON/never will be Hall of Fame players on the list (OJ Anderson) without having definite Hall of Famers on it...Doesnt make much sense to me...

Jason

sixdart

The biggest issue I see here is that Eddie George just isn't all that good. He is a marginal running back at best.

-GoSoxBoSox

Actually, in his 8th year, Eddie George has surpassed Earl Campbell's (8 year) career rushing total. Here is the comparison:

Earl Campbell

9,407 rsh yards ... 74 TDs
0,796 rec yards ... 00 TDs
____________

10,203 total yards ... 74 TDs


Eddie George ( 6 games remaining in 2003)

9,537 rsh yards ... 63 TDs
2,056 rec yards ... 10 TDs
____________

11,593 total yards ... 73 TDs


Why is his career marginal - even at this point?

I had posted the links for general interest. I think PSA initially used these lists as a foundation for the All-Time PSA Registry sets?

Marcus

Davemri

I think he should be in the set.

beefcake210

<< <i>sixdarts,

I understand your point for posting these links, but making these lists certainly doesn't make you one of the all-time greats. In most cases the guys on this list are indeed great...just not all cases.

Eddie George had a good few years but so did a lot of other guys. Billy Sims, Bo Jackson, Wilbert Montgomery, etc. I'd take all of them over Eddie George in a heartbeat. Longevity puts George on these lists, and yes...there's siomething to be said for longevity.

For the record, I don't think Phil Neikro and Early Wynn belong in the Baseball HOF just because they reached the 300 Win plateau. Anyone who pitches as long as Neikro did can reach 300 wins.

Tom >>



But longevity IS an accomplishment of itself! Especially in football - there are only four spots on each team at the skill positions (1 RB, 1 QB, 2 WR) that start and will get serious looks for the potential for stats. For a player to be good enough to start on one of the 32 NFL teams for 10+ years, he's got to be very good - even if he averages 1000 yards/season (a good season) it's impressive to see it done for 10 years. And that's not counting the injuries, games missed, etc.

Neikro is 4th all time in IP (first in the modern era, behind Cy Young, Pud Galvin, and Walter Johnson) - just in front of Nolan Ryan. there's only two pitchers in the top 20 (post 1900) of IP who didn't make the HOF - Blyleven and Tommy John. And they're both missing the 300 wins.

Bottom line - does having a long career allow a player to be good, or does he have a long career because he's good. I'd argue the latter. And 15 wins average for 20 years is impressive, regardless of the era. And Neikro had 312 wins in his last 21 seasons (only pitched 150 IP in his first three combined) - that's almost exactly your 15 win pitcher, year in and year out.

Fabfrank

I was surprised when I saw that E. George and L. Dawson were added to their respective sets. I never received notice, but figured it was close to award time and PSA was busy updating the data base. I agree that J. Perry and S. VanBuren should be added to the RB sets. E. George's addition was pre-mature but worthy none the less.
For the modern guys, SP or SP Authentic are the more valuable card vs. Topps Chrome

GoSoxBoSox

<< <i>Bottom line - does having a long career allow a player to be good, or does he have a long career because he's good. I'd argue the latter. And 15 wins average for 20 years is impressive, regardless of the era. And Neikro had 312 wins in his last 21 seasons (only pitched 150 IP in his first three combined) - that's almost exactly your 15 win pitcher, year in and year out. >>




beefcake,

You missed my point. I agree he's good. I don't think Neikro was GREAT or that he is HOF material. In my opinion that's the problem with the Hall of Fame....it's too numbers oriented. I am from the school of thought that says the HOF should be reserved for the players that dominated the game when they played. When Neikro played he was certainly good.....very good even....and durable as all hell as many knuckleballers are. But he wasn't Carlton, Seaver, Gibson, etc. They were the dominate players of Neikro's era....in my opinion that is. If "Bye Bye" Blyleven makes it I'm gonna freak. His nickname was "Bye Bye" for God's sake!!!


sixdarts,

I use the same argument with George as I do with Neikro. An All-Time Great? Really? I agree he's been durable but he was not a dominant RB in his era. Comparing him to Earl Campbell is jusy crazy. Over a four year stretch Earl Campbell was simply awesome until he had a major injury. The he limped through the rest of his career. Gale Sayers had a similar career. Let's not forget how much the game has changed as well. George plays in an offense that allows him to catch passes. Nobody did that in Campbells time like they do today. They were dominant IN THEIR TIME and that's what I thought the goal of the set was? I could be wrong. Maybe the set is about career numbers as well.


So really....how do you collectors of this set define "All-Time Greatest NFL Rushers"? Dominance, career numbers, both?

JasP24

I would say the set is a combination. Not just a list of Hall of Fame RB's, nor just a list of 10,000 yard rushers. The GREATS should be a combo of guys that have EITHER dominated their era and/or have exceeded a statistical plateau that exceeds just good. I would say that 10,000 yards even in todays NFL is a GREAT accomplishment. How many NEW RB's are out there and on pace to do it? Not many.

Jason

Fabfrank

Jasp24- I agree. It's a combination of dominance and/or longevity. Baseball HOF status is more number oriented while football is more subjective. I think the all-time receivers set will see some significant changes in the coming years. I was surprised to see guys like T. Mathis, A. Rison, and G. Clark in the top 20. With todays emphasis on the passing game I think 900+ receptions will be the starting point rather than the apex of receiving greatness. Does that mean that guys like C. Joiner, S. Largent and J. Lofton aren't worthy of being on the list? I say no. They were prolific for the era that they played in. I feel M. Irvin and S. Sharpe deserve to be in the set now. Harrison, Moss, Bruce, and Holt will be worthy soon (2-3 Years). Was anyone surprised L. Centers was in the top twenty? How did that happen?

JasP24

I always look at the number of Pro Bowls or number of All-NFL selections as a good way to tell if the guy was dominant. If they were being selected as the BEST at their position at the time, that tells the story. Pro Bowls for some of the guys we have talked about:

Eddie George- 4 Pro Bowls in 7 seasons
Earl Campbell- 5 Pro Bowls in 8 seasons
Joe Perry - 3 Pro Bowls in 14 seasons
Jim Taylor- 5 Pro Bowls in 10 seasons
Lenny Moore- 7 Pro Bowls in 12 seasons
Billy Sims- 3 Pro Bowls in 5 seasons
Bo Jackson-1 Pro Bowl in 4 seasons
Wilbert Montgomery- 2 Pro Bowls in 9 seasons
Terrell Davis- 3 Pro Bowls in 7 seasons

The ONLY guys on that list to EVER lead the league in rushing are Jim Taylor in 1962, Terrell Davis in 1998, and Earl Campbell 1978, 1979, and 1980.

WR's:
Mathis-1 PB in 13 years
Rison- 5 PB in 12 years
Clark - 4 PB in 11 years
Joiner- 3 PB in 18 years
Largent-7 PB in 14 years
Lofton- 8 PB in 16 years
Irvin- 5 PB in 12 years
Sharpe- 8 PB in 13 years (as a TE of course)
Harrison-4 PB in 7 years
Moss-4 PB in 5 years
Bruce- 4 PB in 9 years
Holt- 1 PB in 4 years

Quite a few surprising numbers in there. But Pro Bowls are the best way I can guess to compare these players to their peers at the time.

Jason

AlanAllen

It's true that 10,000 yards is something special. After Eddie George, the next highest active player is Corey Dillon with 7,759 yards. Even if he does get his starting job back and starts to run like himself again, it'll be 2005 before he hits 10,000. Stephen Davis has 6,872... maybe 2006 there. Many players who looked like shoo-ins to reach 10,000 never did (exhibit A: Terrell Davis). The running back position is inherently inconductive to longevity, and even productive vets are often discarded for younger guys (i.e. Bettis, Hearst, Staley this year). Bottom line: any player who amasses 10,000 rushing yards deserves to be mentioned amongst the game's best. In the 83-year history of the NFL, only 16 men have reached that mark. The majority of HOF running backs have not. In comparison, 18 receivers have reached 10,000 despite the relatively recent predominance of the forward pass and 3 more will make it this year. 24 quarterbacks have passed for 30,000 yards.

BTW, Larry Centers is one of the most under-appreciated running backs of our era . He never runs, but he's been a threat out of the backfield for a decade.

Back on topic: it sounds like there is momentum for adding some vintage HOF RB's to the set. I'd love to see any player who has ever led the NFL in career rushing yards added. That would mean adding:

Cliff Battles 1935 National Chicle
Clarke Hinkle 1935 National Chicle
Steve Van Buren 1948 Leaf
Joe Perry 1950 Bowman.

That would make the set an even 25. I think the last 2 are slam dunks, but most collectors probably aren't as interested in the very early history of the NFL when Battles and Hinkle played as I am, so I'm flexible. Jim Taylor would be a hell of an addition too, as would Lenny Moore and at least a dozen others. Can you tell I'm a running back freak? .

Joe

sixdart

... So really....how do you collectors of this set define "All-Time Greatest NFL Rushers"? Dominance, career numbers, both? ...

- GoSoxBoSox

It's not that we (as collector's of this set) disagree with you. The fact is, there is a difference between the Greats and All-Time greats. However, we have to work with PSA's definition ... not ours. Please remember there was an attempt to separate these players - the 10,000 Yard Rusher PSA Registry Set request.

To correctly categorize the All-Time Great RBs, you would need ( 3 ) PSA Registry subsets ...

NFL All-Time Great Rushers
NFL All-Time 10,000 Yard Rushers
NFL All-Time HOF Runningbacks.

The 3rd set of this list would reflect players like George McAfee. Believe it or not, Gale Sayers was compared to McAfee when he entered the NFL. So many of the early NFL stars were 2-way stars and because it was a different game then, their stats will never compare to the modern game.

By the way, here is a great site to look up player stats - early NFL to 2002 season ...

John Troan's Football Site - Coach and Player Stats

John Troan's Football Site - NFL Stats 1920 To 2002

Thanks,

Marcus

sixdart

NFL single season rushing leaders (pre-Jim Brown) ...

* NFL Hall Of Fame member

1920 Dutch Sternaman, Decatur Staleys
1921 Fritz Pollard, Akron Pros
1922 Al Elliott, Racine Legion
1923 Tex Grigg, Canton Bulldogs
1924 Tex Hamer, Frankford Yellow Jackets
1925 Barney Wentz, Pottsville Maroons
1926 Barney Wentz, Pottsville Maroons
1927 Charley Rogers, Frankford Yellow Jackets
1928 Benny Friedman, Detroit Wolverines
1929 Red Grange*, Chicago Bears
1930 Chuck Bennett, Portsmouth Spartans
1931 Red Grange*, Chicago Bears
1932 Cliff Battles*, Boston Braves
1933 Jim Musick, Boston Redskins
1934 Beattie Feathers, Chicago Bears
1935 Doug Russell, Chicago Cardinals
1936 Tuffy Leemans, New York Giants
1937 Cliff Battles*, Washington Redskins
1938 Whizzer White, Pittsburgh Pirates
1939 Bill Osmanski, Chicago Bears
1940 Whizzer White, Detroit Lions
1941 Pug Manders, Brooklyn Dodgers
1942 Bill Dudley*, Pittsburgh Steelers
1943 Bill Paschal, New York Giants
1944 Bill Paschal, New York Giants
1945 Steve Van Buren*, Philadelphia Eagles
1946 Bill Dudley*, Pittsburgh Steelers
1947 Steve Van Buren*, Philadelphia Eagles
1948 Steve Van Buren*, Philadelphia Eagles
1949 Steve Van Buren*, Philadelphia Eagles
1950 Marion Motley*, Cleveland Browns
1951 Eddie Price, New York Giants
1952 Dan Towler, Los Angeles Rams
1953 Joe Perry*, San Francisco 49ers
1954 Joe Perry*, San Francisco 49ers
1955 Alan Ameche, Baltimore Colts
1956 Rick Casares, Chicago Bears

Here are some websites that relate to the NFL single season and career rushing leaders ...

NFL.COM NFL History: Annual Rushing Leaders - Attempts, Yards, Average and TDs

NFL.COM Players - Individual Records: Rushing

ESPN.COM All-Time Leading NFL Rushers

GoSoxBoSox

I understand completely. This is one of those topics that can be debated forever and a day.

BTW, Tuffy Leemans (1936) is in the HOF.

Also, how did Whizzer get his nickname? Was he really fast or did he have a bladder problem?

pebblyjack

"Whizzer" White got his nickname, when in college, a Denver columnist wrote that, when White ran the ball, he just seemed to "whiz" by people. White hated the nickname.

He was All-America at Colorado in 1937. He then signed with the Pittsburgh (football) Pirates in 1938 and was the highest paid player in the NFL at that time. He lead the NFL in rushing in 1938. He then took off 1939 to study in England as a Rhodes Scholar. After England entered the war, he returned to the US and played for the Lions. Attending Yale Law School during the week and playing for the Lions on the week-ends, White again lead the NFL in rushing in 1941 (and finished first in his law class as well). After having a solid 1942 season, White retired from the NFL and entered the Army.

Of course, John Kennedy later appointed him to the United States Supreme Court where he served until 1993. He died in 2002.

Thanks

Randy

Fabfrank

Pebblyjack's post is why I read this board every day. I'm always learning something new.

GoSoxBoSox

<< <i>Of course, John Kennedy later appointed him to the United States Supreme Court where he served until 1993. He died in 2002. >>




Wow. I make a pee joke and the guy turns out to be somebody!!! Great stuff Pebblyjacks!!